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English Thought

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by jays52, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    Included in all of the hype surrounding the "top" 34 OLB candidates, there seems to be a major hole in each of their games. Be it Orakpo's inconsistency, Brown's flagrant 43 fit, Maybin's lack of POA ability, Barwin's lack of experience or Johnson being the tin man, there is a negative to all of them. I've been high on English since November, and personally have him rated 1b behind Barwin at the position. I've looked high and low and can't seem to find a single piece of solid commentary on a hole in his game. Of course, he didn't run a sub 4.7, but he seems to play at 4.6. So I have a question for you, fine members of the draft board. Can you find a solid hole in English's game?
  2. klinefan

    klinefan Banned

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    He's too short. What does he bring that TBC or Crable don't? TBC was good in college too...English played in a weak conference.
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Coverage... The film clip Mayock uses to highlight his selling points shows him dropping into a zone and pretty much looking lost. Your Mr. 1a looks much, much more natural in space.
  4. TheBaronPatriot

    TheBaronPatriot Rookie

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    Do you think this is due to a lack of experience dropping into coverage?
    Or from a lack of physical skill to perform coverage responsibilities?

    Do you think coverage is something he could be coached up to perform?
  5. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    For those complaing about the lack of competition, check out the highlights of him abusing SEC (Tennessee) and Big 10 (Minnesota) competition. Also, Jason Taylor is a pretty good pass-rusher who also came out of the MAC. I think if the Pats want this guy, they will have to trade up to get him.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  6. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    There is a major hole in the game of every one of the top 20 players listed on any board you can find. It is remarkable, reading the descriptions, that any of these players make the NFL at all.

    For example:
    Curry won't be able to pressure the quarterback. He is stiff and can't change directions quickly. He doesn't tackle well, overusing his arms. Who would want this guy?

    Monroe is too big around the middle, doesn't have good awareness of blitzes and doesn't block well in the open field. Who would want this guy?
  7. patsfan1251

    patsfan1251 Rookie

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    I think the problem with all of the DE/OLB conversions are as follows.
    1. Defensive shemes in NCAA arent too complicated
    2. A large majority of the NCAA teams run basic coverages and do not require players to do too much
    3. Most teams run a 4-3 in NCAA
    4. There is going to becoming less and less prospects avil who fit into the 3-4 becuse of more teams in the nfl switching to 3-4 D (thus a player like Tyson Jackson will likely be picked top 5)
    5. The closer a player moves towards the line of scrimage the easier it is, because there is a lack of responsibilities the closer you are to the ball.
    6. Thus the further you move from the ball you have more responsiblities.

    I think #6 is the key sticking point because you have players who have been rushing the passer and thats it...not required to drop into zone and not required to cover TE's and such. Its difficult to project how that player will play in space. Like i said the futher you move away from the ball the more responsibility you have.
  8. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Stiff and unathletic (relatively speaking, or course). I don't see him as a first-round talent with regard to rushing the quarterback or dropping into space.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  9. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    I like English a ton and think he will turn out being the best OLB hybrid to come out of this draft. I'm hoping he somehow lands w/the Pats. I don't care about his 40, because there's functional football speed and manufactured track speed. This kid is fast on the football field, look at the tape, where it matters. Here are some things I've posted on him in the past:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...7440-larry-english-vid-page2.html#post1337727

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...d/13/229620-mayock-olbs-pats.html#post1347924

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...anks-ayers-third-best-player-draft-page2.html
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Larry English is a fine 4-3 DE with a nice motor and pass rush moves. There's a lot to like about his game. Though he played against lesser competition, he seemed to do fine in games against upper echelon teams as well.

    The big question I have with English is whether he is suited to be a 3-4 OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE. I lean towards the latter. He seems to play best when he is moving forwards, and I haven't seen much film of him moving well in space. I'm not sure he has enough speed to be an edge rusher at OLB, and he lacks ideal height. His lateral agility numbers are average.

    Right now I would rank Barwin and Aaron Maybin as the top 2 OLB conversion guys in terms of their ceiling. I think English is 3rd, with a much higher floor than Maybin. Barwin's TE/ST background gives him something of an insurance policy if he doesn't work out at OLB, otherwise I would say Engish has a higher floor than Barwin. I think he's a fine player, but I certainly wouldn't say that he doesn't have some major questions as far as a 3-4 OLB prospect goes.
  11. TheBaronPatriot

    TheBaronPatriot Rookie

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    For everyone criticizing his height.
    James Harrisson, is 6" 242 lbs.
    He was the defensive player of the year.

    English is slightly over 6"2.
    Lack of height does not prevent you from being effective as an OLB in the 3-4 based on Harrisson's performance.
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Steelers clearly have a different size profile than the Pats in terms of LBs. They also have Lawrence Timmons at ILB, and he wouldn't fit well for the Pats.

    I have never said that English's height (or Brown's for that matter) is an absolute show-stopper. But I think that BB values length of the edge more than Dick LeBeau does. True, Adalius Thomas is 6'2", but he has unique versatility and speed for his size. I think that BB likes those 6'4"-6'5" guys like McGinest, and it's telling that he drafted 6'5" Shawn Crable and signed 6'5" Vince Redd as an UDFA last year. I think all other things equal he would give preference to a 6'4" Barwin or Maybin (with long arms) compared with a 6'2" English or a 6' 1 1/2" Brown.
  13. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    Harrison was undrafted out of a similarly small school. All credit in the world to him, but if everybody starts drafting small guys out of small schools, I'm willing to believe there will be more misses than hits.

    Maurice Jones-Drew is a great running back, but I'm not lining up to draft 5'6" RBs on Day One in hope that I can find another.
  14. R_T26

    R_T26 Banned

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    Small school didn't hurt demarcus ware any. He was super productive in college I like English.
  15. kas

    kas Rookie

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    The one real knock I have against English is that he didn't play against top competition. In all his years, I don't think BB has ever taken a guy from a small school on day 1. Not to say he wasn't productive, but it is hard to know just how good he really is...
  16. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    If you check his game log and go back through the years NIU plays some pretty good teams: Larry English Stats, News, Photos - Northern Illinois Huskies - NCAA College Football - ESPN

    Keep in mind when comparing him to other prospects that some "big" time programs have had down seasons the past few years. It's best to look at who these players played against by position and the caliber of that opponents and how they fared vs the teams they played against.

    English's personal workout results from 3/28:
    15 teams watch NIU's English work out -- chicagotribune.com
    Looks like when English trained for specific events like some other kids his workout #s improved from the combine.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  17. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are correct of course. But posters here will tell you that the past means nothing. :)

  18. bakes781

    bakes781 Rookie

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    He played against:

    Tennessee
    Ohio State
    Maryland

    :rolleyes:
  19. TheBaronPatriot

    TheBaronPatriot Rookie

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    Nick Kazur played for Toledo
  20. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    His coverage will require the 'standard' development time of 2-3 seasons, I'd estimate him to be closer to the high end, but I do believe he would develop into a decent short zone defender within the expected time window for a DE to OLB conversion. Jays ranks him 1b behind Barwin and I agree. Barwin has less experience on defense, rushing the passer and playing the run, but Barwin is much, much further along in coverage skills, he shows more potential for man coverage as opposed to strictly zone, and is more of a 1-2 year window for playing in space, I'm projecting his breakthrough would (conservatively) come mid-season 2010. Since coverage skills are actually the hardest element for transitioning to OLB (re: Willie McGinest on NFL Total Access, there's a clip at NFL.com's video page), the more athletic Barwin is easier for me to project to OLB and is someone whom I believe could be challenging for #3 OLB in his second season. Pierre Woods was the #3 in his third season, the question for him - from items/articles written last season - was his ability against the run. He showed the coaches enough there to allow BB the option to move Vrabel and create an open competition amongst the young LBs for Vrabe's slot. I think Barwin can hit that same performance window a year earlier, which is why I strongly agree with Jays 1a designation for Barwin and a 1b for English.

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