Early impressions

[pats1]

How did I get to be the poster boy on this? I don't like the 4-3 anywhere near as much as the 3-4, I think this team's linebackers are at a big disadvantage in the 4-3, and I expected the team to use the 3-4 as the base again this year, but others were far more militant about it than I was.

Because you were so adament that it was just something the Pats will playing with in the "first days of training camp."

And I like the 3-4 a lot more than the 4-3 too. But I've chosen not to ignore the facts and not to rely on conjecture that using the 4-3 exclusively in practice and games so far to this point is just experimentation.

 

[patchick]

It's amazing how people are calling each other "flat out wrong" about the future.

Here are my questions: the Pats are integrating a ton of new talent, young and old, throughout the defense. During camp, they've overwhelmingly practiced in 4-3 configurations; during the first preseason game they overwhelmingly played 4-3 configurations. If that's just supposed to be a situational variant, when do all the new arrivals learn the "base" defense? And why do they keep loading up on more and more linemen while keeping a lean stable of LBs?

 

[Deus Irae]

Because you were so adament that it was just something the Pats will playing with in the "first days of training camp."

And I like the 3-4 a lot more than the 4-3 too. But I've chosen not to ignore the facts and not to rely on conjecture that using the 4-3 exclusively in practice and games so far to this point is just experimentation.

You seem to have me confused with some other person or persons:

My fervent hope is that this has all been about 3rd down, and not about changing to a 4-3 base.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/257358-post-your-current-roster-projections-page2.html#post1453576

I understand what you're saying, and I know what they've been running. My hope is that they will now start back practicing with the 3-4 after getting the elements of 4-3 work down. I don't like having Seymour and Warren exposed as 4-3 ends, and that's what could very well happen against a passing team.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/257358-post-your-current-roster-projections-page3.html#post1453585

I've no reason to doubt either interpretation at this point. The Patriots have used the start of training camp to work on problem areas in the past, and I'm hoping that's what they are doing now. As is so often the case with the Patriots and their bunker mentality, only time will tell, because they aren't likely to offer up the information in a 'tell-all' press conference.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/257358-post-your-current-roster-projections-page3.html#post1453604

 

[captain stone]

Maroney has no nose for the whole! That's what he did poorly. On a couple plays the cutback lane was wide open and he missed it. Faulk wouldn't have. Morris wouldn't have.

He has no burst. Unless it's a monster whole, he isn't going to hit it.

He runs lateral to much. There was one play we only needed like a yard or two. Now he got the yard, but he took chances and kept running lateral when he could have dropped his head and got the first without taking any chances.

He doesn't have any of the instincts that we saw with Dillon, or that we see now with Sammy Morris.

I haven't given up on him. But he has to learn how to hit the whole. And after three years, I'm not convinced he will learn that.

He has the physical tools to be a monster. The problem is in his desicion making IMO

Thank you.

LaMa isn't dancing, which would be a manifestation of indecisiveness. That's not his problem. His problem is his vision, and the lack thereof. He also doesn't seem to be thinking about what may happen, while he's waiting for the handoff. For instance: "This dive we have just called tends to get stuffed early, if at all, so if there's nothing there, I have to be ready to bounce it outside." He just doesn't seem to get it. I really, really hope that Fred Taylor has one more good year left in him.

 

[patfanken]

My complete answer? Pierre Woods..

Well if you are looking for a grade on your answer, its INCOMPLETE. What is Woods a better 4-3 OLB? or do you think he's incapable of playing OLB in a 3-4? Or is he a better 4-3 DE?

Get off your high horse and let us know.

 

[Patriots2001]

Early impressions - all i can say is i liked what i saw last night it'sa small sample but it was good.

 

[BTTA]

i saw the samuel PI play on nfl.com and they showed it from a different angle. it did look like a good call afterall. he wasn't looking back for the ball, and he clearly grabbed Moss' arm.

What the defensive back is looking at is not relevant to pass interference, or any penalty. All that matters is the type and timing of physical contact.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

What the defensive back is looking at is not relevant to pass interference, or any penalty. All that matters is the type and timing of physical contact.

While that's true in a strict interpretation of the rules, the guidance NFL officials receive is that if a player is looking at the ball, they may interpret contact with the reciever to be incidental and not call PI. In the case of an arm-grab, however, it is irrelevant, but it sure makes it easier on the back judge, who was some distance away, to make the call.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That's nice. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

You seem to love Maroney, as do others. I don't like Maroney, as others don't.

Time will tell which group was right. So far, the proof is in the pudding. They picked up Morris and Jordan, and now Fred Taylor. Shows you how much faith they have in Maroney.

ROFL- football outsiders performs an in-depth analysis that, over an extremely large sample size, is able to objectively measure player performance, and the response of some nobody on Patsfans is that statistics are all lies.

Pro-tip: If you are incapable of understanding the concepts involved, then that's on you. Doesn't make it a lie.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You should be worried about my quotes in your signature.:snob:

Yeah... I'm not

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

2:19 in the 1st Qtr:
-- Phi kicks off to Slater at the 3 yd line.
-- NE is using a 2-man wedge (Hochstein, A.Smith) with Edelman the other returner as the lead blocker.
-- They've got a left-side return on.
-- Baker is set up as a rally point 12-15 yds in front of the wedge.
-- Devree, Alexander, Baker, Hochstein, McGowan, Smith, Chung, Ciurciu, and Edelman all get gold stars for blocking. Tank Williams not so much.
-- 27 yd return to the NE 30.

-- 1st and 10: NE I-form, Moss R, 2 TE L. Phi 4-3, SS in the box. Maroney left side has no where to run as the Eagles string it out with 8 men in the box stacking up the blockers. Koppen and Neal missed cut blocks. Smith and Thomas had decent kickout blocks, Baker & Light doubled the DE and drove him off the line, Mankins stayed with his man but never moved him out. Kaczur had the monster block on the backside.
-- 2nd and 10: NE 4-wide, shotgun. Phi 4-2 nickel. Maroney left side, he made a couple jump steps in the backfield waiting for the OL to open the door, once they did he burst for 5 yds. Baker had the key block that sprang him.
-- 3rd and 5: NE 3-wide R, TE L, shotgun. Phi 4-2 nickel. Phi rushed 6. Tommy had enough protection to hit Baker for 9 yds after 2 seconds.
-- 1st and 10: T-form, 3-wide, 2 L. Phi 4-2 nickel. Interception as Brady threw off his back leg towards Moss. Eagles got a good push inside to keep him from stepping up.
12 seconds left in the quarter.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

What I noticed (particularly on D):

Obviously....4-3 it seems is the way this yr- Lots of DL not as many LB's
D Backfield is stacked.

Guyton and Mayo played well. They got to the ball quickly and covered their areas well. I love Mayo.

Pass rush was ok.
Burgesswasn't really a factor. Not suprised-be patient.
Banta Cain took care of the overpaid ***** from Buffalo (#71)had a nice sack on 3rd and 4 and pass rushed well.
I'm not impressed with Woods at all. Period.can't shed blocks, get angles or tackle well at least not in this game...but its only one game.
#52Alexandercan hustle on ST but other than that-not impressed at all-
Wilfork and #91Pryor esp. looked good! So didn't the others but those two stood out.

Sanders, Merriweather and Chung: Very nice!
Wheatly , Butler and Wilhite: good hits, physical, got some reps...should get better!

#24Wilhite (4th rd2008) played all last yr. #22Wheatley (2nd Rd2008) IR last year...should be interesting who gets more time. Both are talented.


2nd half defense was depressing and Andy Reid liked that...just like a Double Cheeseburger!

Woods, Alexander and Crable: NOT impressed.













Offense looked good-especially the first half.

Oline STARTERS did a great job!

TE's: Baker looks solid.
Thomas can play FB/TE, block, etc...I'm glad he's back and making an impact.

RB's: BJGE looks solid and hits the hole strong
Maroney started and got around 4ypc in the first series but he has competition again
Morris looks strong (similar to BJGE)

WR:
Edelman is tough-similar to Welker. We'll see how he stacks up against the competition at rec. He def. got handed some decent playing time.
Moss looked good


my observations....not all accurate but what I saw.

 

[D-cleater]

Either way you look at it..
Its been posted several times that Maroney, for all the complaining people do, has more of his runs go for positive yardage than Morris.

Do you have these stats? Where can we find the percentage of runs that go for positive yardage?

And if this does exist, I'm not sure this is even the best measure of effectiveness, given that Maroney will often get carries on 1st or second down, and doesn't *seem* to get a lot of the short yardage carries. My impression is that on third and short the offense has in the past, gone with Faulk or Morris.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do you have these stats? Where can we find the percentage of runs that go for positive yardage?

And if this does exist, I'm not sure this is even the best measure of effectiveness, given that Maroney will often get carries on 1st or second down, and doesn't *seem* to get a lot of the short yardage carries. My impression is that on third and short the offense has in the past, gone with Faulk or Morris.

If the 'evidence' won't convince you anyway, why bother asking for it?

 

[Synovia]

Do you have these stats? Where can we find the percentage of runs that go for positive yardage?

And if this does exist, I'm not sure this is even the best measure of effectiveness, given that Maroney will often get carries on 1st or second down, and doesn't *seem* to get a lot of the short yardage carries. My impression is that on third and short the offense has in the past, gone with Faulk or Morris.

Morris's success rate* as a Patriot is 42%

Maroney's is 58%


Your eyes are lying to you because you have already formed your opinions.

*success rate: Runs of greater than 40% of needed yards on 1st down, 60% of needed yards on 2nd down, or 100% of needed yards on 3rd down. (football outsiders)

 

[Gwedd]

And if this does exist, I'm not sure this is even the best measure of effectiveness, given that Maroney will often get carries on 1st or second down, and doesn't *seem* to get a lot of the short yardage carries. My impression is that on third and short the offense has in the past, gone with Faulk or Morris.

It's because the Patriots have other options at RB. They prefer a running back by committee approach, using the various players in the manner that best suits them. Other teams are not so fortunate.

respects,

 

[miDeuce]

If the Pats are going 4-3 full time this year how does Bruschi fit into the equation? Mayo's backup, doesn't play special teams?

 

[D-cleater]

Thank you.

LaMa isn't dancing, which would be a manifestation of indecisiveness. That's not his problem. His problem is his vision, and the lack thereof. He also doesn't seem to be thinking about what may happen, while he's waiting for the handoff. For instance: "This dive we have just called tends to get stuffed early, if at all, so if there's nothing there, I have to be ready to bounce it outside." He just doesn't seem to get it. I really, really hope that Fred Taylor has one more good year left in him.

I agree with this post. I'm not a Maroney basher, but from a fans perspective I just don't see him building on his rookie season/ end of 2007 when he broke out for a few good games. He's got all the athletic skills - speed, strength, but there are too many plays where he either doesn't see the hole or hit it hard enough, or use his speed on the outside.

There was one play that stood out last night which totally reflects the frustation so many of us have with Maroney. From the Eagles 18 ( first and ten I believe) , hand off , right side to LM. RT and TE get perfect blocks, opening up a hole off tackle which LM gets 4 yds out of and is brought down on first contact (as usual), by the DL who is already engaged. Sigh...ok, at least he got 4 yds.

But then I looked at the play again, and the WHOLE right side of the field is wide open! If he simply bounced it outside the TE he would have gone at least 10 yards untouched, if not all the way for six. An NFL starting-caliber RB makes that move and gets the big gain - period.

 

[Synovia]

I agree with this post. I'm not a Maroney basher, but from a fans perspective I just don't see him building on his rookie season/ end of 2007 when he broke out for a few good games. He's got all the athletic skills - speed, strength, but there are too many plays where he either doesn't see the hole or hit it hard enough, or use his speed on the outside.

There was one play that stood out last night which totally reflects the frustation so many of us have with Maroney. From the Eagles 18 ( first and ten I believe) , hand off , right side to LM. RT and TE get perfect blocks, opening up a hole off tackle which LM gets 4 yds out of and is brought down on first contact (as usual), by the DL who is already engaged. Sigh...ok, at least he got 4 yds.

But then I looked at the play again, and the WHOLE right side of the field is wide open! If he simply bounced it outside the TE he would have gone at least 10 yards untouched, if not all the way for six. An NFL starting-caliber RB makes that move and gets the big gain - period.

Its fine that you feel that way, the problem is, even with his problems, his production is still better than anyone else on the roster, and better than most in the NFL. Despite all his "dancing", "lack of vision", etc, he out performs morris and BJGE on almost every subset of running plays. Power running, 1st down, etc. He loses yards less often, has a higher success rate, and has a higher YPC.

An NFL starting-caliber RB makes that move and gets the big gain - period

I don't think you know what an NFL starting -caliber RB is.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with this post. I'm not a Maroney basher, but from a fans perspective I just don't see him building on his rookie season/ end of 2007 when he broke out for a few good games. He's got all the athletic skills - speed, strength, but there are too many plays where he either doesn't see the hole or hit it hard enough, or use his speed on the outside.

There was one play that stood out last night which totally reflects the frustation so many of us have with Maroney. From the Eagles 18 ( first and ten I believe) , hand off , right side to LM. RT and TE get perfect blocks, opening up a hole off tackle which LM gets 4 yds out of and is brought down on first contact (as usual), by the DL who is already engaged. Sigh...ok, at least he got 4 yds.

But then I looked at the play again, and the WHOLE right side of the field is wide open! If he simply bounced it outside the TE he would have gone at least 10 yards untouched, if not all the way for six. An NFL starting-caliber RB makes that move and gets the big gain - period.

Broken down by Box:

-- 1st and 10 Phi 18: 2-wide Lt, 2 TE Rt. Phi 4-3. Nice blocking - the OL blocked down pulling Mankins, Baker from 1x1 outside Kaczur blocked down to seal the DE. Thomas kicked out the SLB. Mankins creamed the MLB. Kaczur came off and picked up the WLB and took him all the way across outside the SLB. Maroney was unable to get up a head of steam - he looked like he was sailing through a mine field with all the changes of direction as he let his blockers clear the way, the only thing that kept him from busting loose into the secondary was the LDE had been spun completely around by Baker's block and was pointed in the right direction when Maroney slowed to allow Kaczur to finish opening the door, the LDE was just able to get a hold of him to save a big gain. It was a really pretty job of blocking and following your blockers. 4 yds.

By the way, pretending that you're not a Maroney basher and then tossing in the "as usual" comment is probably not the way to convince people that you're not a Maroney basher.