Dreams of a WR Trade

[Snake Eyes]

A decent QB doesn't make a weak team 11-5, and you have been saying that Brady was the reason they were good.

I never said he was decent, I said he was very solid. I also never said the 08 team was "weak".

I have said that plenty of success attributed to BB is due to Brady, I also think that BB the coach often bails out BB the GM.

 

[patfanken]

Bill a good schemer yes. Gm he has been good to horrid. He has a qb already so all his drafting was to building the roster. He has failed to find a reliable passrusher in like 9 drafts. I have hopes for Zach Moore. And I think if he adds some weight Collins could be really good. But it should have been taken care of long ago finding a passrusher. And let's not even talk bout a #1WR

Did you even ready B6's post above. The Pats have drafted pretty well over the years. More importantly, they've drafted very effectively DESPITE constantly drafting in the mid 20's for most of the decade.

If you knew your history a bit better you will have known that that so called "reliable pass rusher" you are so desperate for, will likely never exist. That's not how BB schemes his defense. Are you ever aware that during our defense's so called glory years (2003-2007) the Pats had only ONE player ever get to double digit sacks (Varbel in 2007). This despite the fact that the Pats were usually in the top 5 in sacks each year.

Sack totals are up across the league because teams pass so much more, but you should know that when the Pats' defenses are historically good under BB, there is NO dominant rusher, but rather sacks are spread around.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about (again). All you care about are the WR's and sack artists. You think they solve all problems when historically the best WR's and sack artists usually aren't playing on the "elite teams". TEAMS win, not individuals. That's why 10 of the top 12 so called #1 WR's were watching football in January. I would think that you'd understand this small nugget.

You are a perfect example of the dangers of having a "little bit of knowledge", compounded by an ego that allows you think you are 100% correct in all your opinions while everyone else is an idiot for thinking differently.

Let me give a bit of friendly advice. Stop being so self assured. I know a lot more football than you do. But in my long involvement woth the game, what I'm constantly reminded of is how much i DON'T know. It might be humbling to consider it, but it will work wonders on your posts.

 

[Brady6]

This offseason the draft misconception is stronger in than in most years because this was a historically deep draft class with many very good players in the mid and late rounds. In general, though late second round picks, third round picks, etc. are far from locks to succeed in the NFL led alone become stars. I think we would all love to have a JJ Watt, Von Miller, Julio Jones, and AJ Green, among others but the reality is that those players a long gone before we even are considering making a draft pick.

Fans, posters, and media pick the 1-2 players in the round like Richard Sherman and ask “why didn’t the Patriots draft him” ignoring the fact that the 30 players in that round were not stars.

 

[Ivan]

Teams rebuild.

Even first round picks have a 35% to 45% chance of being a bust.

Bust percentages just go up from there.

All teams average out in the Draft over time compared to other teams.

All GMs average out in the Draft over time as well.

The Draft is a crapshoot at best and no team or GM can beat the Draft.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-team-can-beat-the-draft/

We very well could have an elite, top 5 Defense this year... and thats not homer talk, that's very real potential. How many teams have never even touched a top 5 Defense in the last 13 years unless they played against one?

We have had the most consistent winning team in the entire NFL during Bill's tenure. That means we have drafted consistently later than any other team.

Do you think Bill is at a disadvantage when he has to draft after 24 other teams on average, year after year after year?

I think he's done just fine.

The Patriots are always building and that's how they stay on top, and what's lost in the criticisms of Belichick are the very structural disadvantages the league has built in to make sure the best teams come back to the pack and the worst rise up. And if you look across the league there is not one other team that has managed to stay at the top the way the Patriots have over the past 13 years. All of the teams that have won Super Bowls over that time have had bad seasons and bad stretches over that time period, and most have had top 10 picks as a result of their failures, The only bad team Belichick has had was the one he inherited his first year here, after that they have all been winning teams, and only two didn't make the play-offs, one of which was an 11-5 team that became one of two to go 11-5 and miss the play-offs (I think the same happened to the Cardinals this season, which would make that 3).The league is built for parity and the Patriots defy that, and they are consistently one of the top 4 teams in the league and have won more Lombardi's than any other team in the league during this era. No one has done a better job as GM than he has done and that is simply a fact, no matter how much the fantasy football wannabe GM's want to pretend otherwise. Anyone who thinks they should replace him knows absolutely nothing about real football and should stick to their fantasy leagues.

And for the record, many of my closest friends are really into fantasy football, however none are deluded enough to think they could do a better job than Belichick, although like everyone else they question various moves and wished for different things each offseason, just as i do and most here do. The people i am referring to are very specifically those who actually think they know better and go on and on about how they should have done this or they should have done that and that belichick is a lousy GM, those people ares simply delusional, at best. There's a big difference between fantasy football and real football, and a big difference between between criticizing and questioning and actually believing you know better.

 

[AzPatsFan]

People said the game passed Tom Landry, and it seems they were correct.

Miami has declined since Shula left, I wonder how much of that was due to having a HoF QB to...not having one.

Last time i looked Marinao was hardly an incompetent nver was ...

 

[AzPatsFan]

I never said BB should be fired, just the game actually odes pass some people by and a franchise might very well benefit from parting ways with their long-time coach, no more, no less.

That is precisely what the moron Modell said, who fired both Paul Brown and Bill Belichick.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That is precisely what the moron Modell said, who fired both Paul Brown and Bill Belichick.

Yeah, so did Jerry Jones, and he quickly built a dynasty after Landry left.

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah, so did Jerry Jones, and he quickly built a dynasty after Landry left.

...because he just so happened to land Jimmy Johnson (the guy that was kicking everyone's ass with those juggernaut Miami teams that he recruited) and had the bargaining chip in place to amass a good amount of draft picks in a hurry. You simply can't point to the building of Dallas' dynasty in the 90's to any one thing.

 

[Brady6]

Yeah, so did Jerry Jones, and he quickly built a dynasty after Landry left.

The Cowboys had some serious resources when Jones purchased the team in 1989.

- He inherited Michael Irvin entering his second season (1988 first round pick)
- He had the #1 overall pick in 1989 that he used to select Troy Aikman; he also had 2 second round picks and 2 third round picks that season
- He selected Emmitt Smith with the #17 overall pick in 1990
- He had the #1 overall pick, #12 overall pick, and #20 overall pick in 1991, as well as 3 third round picks, and 4 fourth round picks in 1991.
- He had the #17 overall pick, and the #20 overall pick in 1992, as well as 2 second round picks, and 2 third round picks

All totaled in 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992 the Cowboys picked #1 overall 2 times, made 7 picks in the first round, 6 picks in the second round, and 8 picks in the third round. None of the 7 picks in the first round were later than #24 overall.

 

[Danger Zone]

None of the 7 picks in the first round were later than #24 overall.

How many years has Belichick only been able to wish he could pick 24th in the First Round?

Let alone have the first pick twice and/or get to pick at 12th or 17th or even 20th?

 

[Brady6]

Though probably easier to put together that kind of dynasty without a


How many years has Belichick wished he could pick 24th in the First Round let alone 1st x2, 12th, 17th or 20th?

Exactly, not to mention the draft was 12 rounds back in those days.

 

[Danger Zone]

Exactly, not to mention the draft was 12 rounds back in those days.

Hehe, everyone needs to give me 5 minutes before they quote me

I have some kind of mental-block about effectively being able to proof-read when typing in this tiny little Input box on my Kindle.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The Cowboys had some serious resources when Jones purchased the team in 1989.

- He inherited Michael Irvin entering his second season (1988 first round pick)
- He had the #1 overall pick in 1989 that he used to select Troy Aikman; he also had 2 second round picks and 2 third round picks that season
- He selected Emmitt Smith with the #17 overall pick in 1990
- He had the #1 overall pick, #12 overall pick, and #20 overall pick in 1991, as well as 3 third round picks, and 4 fourth round picks in 1991.
- He had the #17 overall pick, and the #20 overall pick in 1992, as well as 2 second round picks, and 2 third round picks

All totaled in 1989, 1990, 1991, and 1992 the Cowboys picked #1 overall 2 times, made 7 picks in the first round, 6 picks in the second round, and 8 picks in the third round. None of the 7 picks in the first round were later than #24 overall.

Plenty of teams have picked towards the bottom for a few years running, very few have done what Dallas subsequently did.

 

[Danger Zone]

Plenty of teams have picked towards the bottom for a few years running, very few have done what Dallas subsequently did.

You consider 13 years "a few years running?"

 

[Snake Eyes]

You consider 13 years "a few years running?"

What are you talking about? Dallas had the following picks leading up to Johnson taking over the team

1st in '89
11th in '88
12th in '87
18th in '86
17th in '85
25th in '84
23rd in '83
25th in '82

 

[Danger Zone]

What are you talking about? Dallas had the following picks leading up to Johnson taking over the team

1st in '89
11th in '88
12th in '87
18th in '86
17th in '85
25th in '84
23rd in '83
25th in '82

Thats an 8 year strength and are significantly better than anything Belichick has had to work worth as an average.

 

[Brady6]

Jerry Jones himself pre draft in an interview with ESPN said that early on in his tenure he had an absurd amount of points (on the draft value chart) and he was able to do a lot more but in recent years he has not had that type of resource and it has made building the team difficult.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Thats an 8 year strength and are significantly better than anything Belichick has had to work worth as an average.

I'm not comparing it to BB, I'm just making the point that you can't write off their incredible success to having early 1st round picks, they were pretty middle of the road in draft order.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Jerry Jones himself pre draft in an interview with ESPN said that early on in his tenure he had an absurd amount of points (on the draft value chart) and he was able to do a lot more but in recent years he has not had that type of resource and it has made building the team difficult.

That might be because Jimmy Johnson was the one making those decisions early on. Jones' best success as an owner was when he left football matters to other people.

 

[Gymrat]

Did you even ready B6's post above. The Pats have drafted pretty well over the years. More importantly, they've drafted very effectively DESPITE constantly drafting in the mid 20's for most of the decade.

If you knew your history a bit better you will have known that that so called "reliable pass rusher" you are so desperate for, will likely never exist. That's not how BB schemes his defense. Are you ever aware that during our defense's so called glory years (2003-2007) the Pats had only ONE player ever get to double digit sacks (Varbel in 2007). This despite the fact that the Pats were usually in the top 5 in sacks each year.

Sack totals are up across the league because teams pass so much more, but you should know that when the Pats' defenses are historically good under BB, there is NO dominant rusher, but rather sacks are spread around.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about (again). All you care about are the WR's and sack artists. You think they solve all problems when historically the best WR's and sack artists usually aren't playing on the "elite teams". TEAMS win, not individuals. That's why 10 of the top 12 so called #1 WR's were watching football in January. I would think that you'd understand this small nugget.

You are a perfect example of the dangers of having a "little bit of knowledge", compounded by an ego that allows you think you are 100% correct in all your opinions while everyone else is an idiot for thinking differently.

Let me give a bit of friendly advice. Stop being so self assured. I know a lot more football than you do. But in my long involvement woth the game, what I'm constantly reminded of is how much i DON'T know. It might be humbling to consider it, but it will work wonders on your posts.

Thank you Thank you so much for pointing out what has been wrong with this team. This is a talent driven league more than EVER. The scheme's and systems that worked 10schemes ago NO LONGER WORK. Its the reason fans,analyst's, commentator's, and even former patriot Superbowl standout's are saying the game may have passed Bill by. Its the reason we never hear the end of spygate. Because people say his system/schemes that worked 3 times in a 4 year span hasn't won a championship in 10 years and counting. The offense has continuously taken steps backward when in AFC or Superbowl championship games. His defense Has consistently ranked last or near last. It has become more of a passing league and will continue to do so. Meaning playmaking wrs and passrushers take on more importance every passing year. Bills offense continuously features WRs who can't make plays on their own athletically while other offenses are consistently adding playmakers and improving while our offense is standing still. We have consistently got our by++$ kicked every year in the playoffs. Same weaknesses every year,WRs shut down and ZERO pass rush.

Bills failed draft picks was the result of drafting players who can be put in his scheme the quickest/easiest. Drafting players semi coached up schemewise and ignoring the idea of checking to be sure they have the talent to play in the NFL. The Rutgers picks, before that Florida picks and High tower whom was coached up by Sagan has been far outperformed by 4 LBs drafted after him who are more explosive and far better in coverage. Bill has drafted on talent more often recently. I hear there is a book out there that makes him look VERY bad for ignoring his scouts Warning's before he drafted his picks as well as warnings on semi-coached up players who lacked talent to play in the NFL. His scouts were right every they tried to warn him on busts like Merriweather,Maroney,Wheatley,price,Jackson, spikes,among many others. Bill seems to notice he needs playmakers at passrusher and WR. I had just heard about the freakish specimen Dominique Easley was like a week before the draft from some former college players at the gym. When I saw the pick I was shocked and excited. I was hoping to get him in the second but was excited still. A freakishly disruptive passrusher. Physical improvements from Jones,refinement from Zach Moore and just 10 lbs of muscle on Collins and this defense can and will finally consistently harass QBs. Himutower 10-15 lbs lighter may become the standout lb finally of his draft.

Saying a player needs to add some muscle/power or drop a couple lbs for Speed/Quickness is hardly a knock on a player guys. First off if he is alreadypotenguys good player it means he is one of the guys with vast untapped Potential/Talent. Many players are drafted every year with confidence he has great potential. OT's are drafted top 5 every year with hopes he adds muscle/power because the team knows he can do great things with a little work. Same with passrushers. Talented explosive passrushers who needs 10-20 lbs of muscle to reach his elite status/play the team drafting him believes he can be, are drafted top 5 every year. (Dion Jordan, Mingo,Aldon Smith, our own Collins) So its no knock,its a compliment. BTW imho Collins has more potential than Jordan and Mingo. And I don't want want to see HighTower outperformed by guys selected after him due to lacking burst/quick feet needed at LB. He has more potential than them guys bragged about outperforming him.

To all you people bringing up how much team trainers know more than me. So what,I hope they do. I hope they can motivate/train them to reach their max physical ability. For the record although I have paid to learn from renowned trainer/nutritionist and been told to pursue it,I'm not interested. I just know when a player has elite potential or vast ability they can reach. Hopefully team trainers/professionals help them reach it. IMHO one of reasons Browner was signed was to share with teammates what improving physical power/quickness can do to help them. As gaining power/speed through leaning out took him from cfl to NFL pro bowl. He will share that with his new teammates.