Day 3 Observations from Reiss

[patchick]

This would be a moot point if we had just one REAL offensive lineman learn how to long-snap instead of having some "specialist" do it.

There isn't a long-snapper anywhere in the league who also plays on the offensive line -- last year's NFL long snappers ranged from 219 to 270 lbs.

In fact, I don't believe that there's still a LS in the league who plays regularly at ANY other position. That's largely gone the way of the quarterback-punter.

 

[mayoclinic]

There isn't a long-snapper anywhere in the league who also plays on the offensive line -- last year's NFL long snappers ranged from 219 to 270 lbs.

In fact, I don't believe that there's still a LS in the league who plays regularly at ANY other position. That's largely gone the way of the quarterback-punter.

Yup. Most LS are either underweight centers, TEs, or LBs. They're mostly in the 250# range. The only guy I can think of who has been good enough to make it as a regular has been Ninkovich, who the Pats brought in as a backup LS and an extra body in TC in 2009. And now that he's a regular on defense, he's too preoccupied with that to practice LS duties on a regular basis.

I hate it, but I've become painfully resigned to that fact that almost all teams in the NFL keep a dedicated long snapper.

 

[shmessy]

There isn't a long-snapper anywhere in the league who also plays on the offensive line -- last year's NFL long snappers ranged from 219 to 270 lbs.

In fact, I don't believe that there's still a LS in the league who plays regularly at ANY other position. That's largely gone the way of the quarterback-punter.

You're right, but that is just depressing.

I hate freakin' longsnappers - what's next? Someone who is an extra point holder specialist, separate and apart from the field goal holder specialist?

 

[supafly]

He did very well but Cason and McCluster finished with a better average. So what if they had a few less PRs. Last year he was 26th out of 50 players in return average. Don't compare Edelman to Hester.



OK which was 49th out of 49 players who made returns.

NFL Stats: by Player Category





Edelman is a decent return guy. Hes still a bubble player.

You are completely lost, and I don't mean for that to be too nasty.

I can compare him to Hester all I want due to the fact that he LED the AFC in punt returns in 2010, and Hester was the only one to beat him out. You don't have any idea as to what he can do in the future, but he's surely shown enough in his first couple years as a return man.

Last year Edelman was 6th in the AFC with about a 11 yd punt return ave. I am not sure where you are pulling these stats from, but they are not correct. You can't say "so what if Cason and McCluster had less returns..." If they had more returns they would have qualified then, the same reason why Edelman didn't qualify last yr with a nice 24 yd KR average.

I don't want to get into a pissing match about anyone's potential of making the team, as I enjoy many of your posts and like our conversations in the past.

Julian Edelman's "24 yards per ave on KR" were NOT 'last' in the NFL. Hell, they weren't even last on our specific team. Woodhead did much worse.

You are confused due to the fact that Edelman's low # of KR did not qualify him for any of the stat leaders, and that's why you see him as "last in the NFL." A 24 yd average would not make anyone last in the NFL. That is absurd.

And I don't need a "Save Edelman" cause....you are in the minority when you state that he needs to be 'saved.' Reiss had him as a 80% chance of making the team. No one is claiming that he needs to be saved. He will make the team dude, and it won't have much to do with his WR skills, just like Slater. On this team, BB values ST presence and hard work. Edelman has had both, and he is not on the bubble, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I guarantee you that Belichick is not going to allow Edelman to be a camp casualty, and risk having someone else pick him up.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You are completely lost, and I don't mean for that to be too nasty.

You are not. This is healthy debate and nothing more. Nothing less.

I can compare him to Hester all I want due to the fact that he LED the AFC in punt returns in 2010, and Hester was the only one to beat him out. You don't have any idea as to what he can do in the future, but he's surely shown enough in his first couple years as a return man.

Hester is going to the HoF as a return guy. Edelman is not. He is a decent return guy.

Last year Edelman was 6th in the AFC with about a 11 yd punt return ave. I am not sure where you are pulling these stats from, but they are not correct. You can't say "so what if Cason and McCluster had less returns..." If they had more returns they would have qualified then, the same reason why Edelman didn't qualify last yr with a nice 24 yd KR average.

Lets baseline our understanding. According to profootballreference.com, JE finished 12th out of 28 in PR average and if he did qualify, his 23.7 ave would have placed him 24th out of 35 players. I'm sorry. To me that is very average. we can blame some of his drop off on blocking but we also could say he just wasn't as good.

2011 NFL Kick & Punt Returns - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I don't want to get into a pissing match about anyone's potential of making the team, as I enjoy many of your posts and like our conversations in the past.

Its all good. We are debating.

Julian Edelman's "24 yards per ave on KR" were NOT 'last' in the NFL. Hell, they weren't even last on our specific team. Woodhead did much worse.

You are confused do to the fact that Edelman's low # of KR did not qualify him for any of the stat leaders, and that's why you see him as "last in the NFL." A 24 yd average would not make anyone last in the NFL. That is absurd.

I'll stand corrected here. Let's use profootballreference as our baseline.

And I don't need a "Save Edelman" cause....you are in the minority when you state that he needs to be 'saved.' Reiss had him as a 80% chance of making the team. No one is claiming that he needs to be saved. He will make the team dude, and it won't have much to do with his WR skills, just like Slater. On this team, BB values ST presence and hard work. Edelman has had both, and he is not on the bubble, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I guarantee you that Belichick is not going to allow Edelman to be a camp casualty, and risk having someone else pick him up.

I don't follow the majority if I think the majority is wrong and I certainly am not going to go by what Reiss says. Hell, I was saying Meriweather was going to get canned and he had him on the roster. He also said Addai was the best off season pickup for the Pats. His football judgment is questionable.

Slater is on 3 ST packages ( and a demon to boot), sub on WR and in the secondary. He can also back up the KR game. Thats versatility and why he got the contract he deserved.

If a KR or PR emerges, Edelman will be traded to a team that needs one. There are better backup WRs and DBs better than him on the roster.

 

[patchick]

You're right, but that is just depressing.

I hate freakin' longsnappers - what's next? Someone who is an extra point holder specialist, separate and apart from the field goal holder specialist?

I do feel your pain. If I dare mention (gulp) baseball, it's as if the whole NFL is good old Charlie Finley with his designated pinch runners in the '70s.

 

[Sfpat]

Are you comparing the plight of a 1st round draft pick that only plays one position to Julian Edelman who has an opportunity to play multiple WR positions and for 3 years hasn't been able to nail down a regular role in the offense?

Count on him to do what? Play the slot and pick up WWs production? I hope not or we are in trouble. Let me ask you, what you think Edelman will do if he is in on 600 passing plays? Figure on 400 receptions divided up over Gronk, AH, Lloyd and lets guess that Stallworth and Gaffney are around in 2013. Yards & receptions will do.

I was citing an example of someone who did nothing for 4 years and became a productive player. Trust me, if Rodgers sat for three years ('ell one year) on the Pats without ever playing, many on this board would be screaming that he was a bust.


No one player will ever replace Welker. His production has never been achieved by anyone previously, and probably never wil be repeated. Whoever replaces Welker will produce less than he has the past five years. The offense will evolve. Part of Welkers production will go to the next slot receiver and the balance will be split to others (WR's, TEs, RBs, etc). Edelman caught 30 someodd passes with over 300 yards his rookie season in limited snaps and with no experience as a receiver. Three years later (next season), he could easily double that production in his first year as a starting slot receiver.

 

[supafly]

Lets baseline our understanding. According to profootballreference.com, JE finished 12th out of 28 in PR average and if he did qualify, his 23.7 ave would have placed him 24th out of 35 players. I'm sorry. To me that is very average. we can blame some of his drop off on blocking but we also could say he just wasn't as good.

Edelman brought back 28 punts for a 10.7-yard average, sixth in the AFC and trailing the Browns' Cribbs, who was third (11.4). Edelman's 12 kickoffs weren't enough to qualify for the league list, although he averaged 23.7 yards."

Just so we understand, his PUNT return game fell from 1st in the AFC in 2010, to 6th in the AFC in 2011.

I am not sure about your numbers here again, but IF he had a 23.7 PR average it'd likely put him as one of the best of all time. His 1st in the AFC punt return ave in 2010 was about 15 yds/per, so something in the range of 23.7 would be absolutely insane.

The 23.7 average is KICKOFFS, where he only had 12 attempts all year, due to Woodhead taking the majority. Those 12 attempts were not enough to qualify him for any of the lead stats, due to the low number of kick returns.

Either way, you think he's on the bubble and ineffective in many ways on special teams. I think differently, and feel that his numbers and TD's have backed that up, not to mention the fact that he made some tackles in the special teams department too last year. To me, that is a ST ace, or as close to one that we're likely going to have.

No big deal, only time will tell.

Julian Edelman shows versatility for Patriots

 

[Sciz]

Main thing I got out of this thread today: Kent State University is not in Kentucky.

 

[supafly]

Main thing I got out of this thread today: Kent State University is not in Kentucky.

You also got that some here still don't understand Edelman's ST contributions and any potential as a future talent, as they look at him as a WR only in competition for the last spot with Branch and Stallworth, who have very different skillsets.

You also got that the topic of Edelman will continue to be a very controversial subject moving forward.

Kent State University is definitely in the state of Ohio. Interestingly enough, Bill Belichick recently donated over 50k to a small high school team about an hour away in Struthers, OH. I believe he had family ties there, right outside of Youngstown. Classy move by the coach. I saw it in the local paper there last week.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I was citing an example of someone who did nothing for 4 years and became a productive player. Trust me, if Rodgers sat for three years ('ell one year) on the Pats without ever playing, many on this board would be screaming that he was a bust..

Maybe. But if he was spectacular in preseason and in spots showed a great command of the offense, the educated fan would call for him to be traded for a top pick.

No one player will ever replace Welker. His production has never been achieved by anyone previously, and probably never wil be repeated. Whoever replaces Welker will produce less than he has the past five years. The offense will evolve. Part of Welkers production will go to the next slot receiver and the balance will be split to others (WR's, TEs, RBs, etc). Edelman caught 30 someodd passes with over 300 yards his rookie season in limited snaps and with no experience as a receiver. Three years later (next season), he could easily double that production in his first year as a starting slot receiver.

Easily? We'll disagree there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Edelman brought back 28 punts for a 10.7-yard average, sixth in the AFC and trailing the Browns' Cribbs, who was third (11.4). Edelman's 12 kickoffs weren't enough to qualify for the league list, although he averaged 23.7 yards."

Just so we understand, his PUNT return game fell from 1st in the AFC in 2010, to 6th in the AFC in 2011.

I am not sure about your numbers here again, but IF he had a 23.7 PR average it'd likely put him as one of the best of all time. His 1st in the AFC punt return ave in 2010 was about 15 yds/per, so something in the range of 23.7 would be absolutely insane.

The 23.7 average is KICKOFFS, where he only had 12 attempts all year, due to Woodhead taking the majority. Those 12 attempts were not enough to qualify him for any of the lead stats, due to the low number of kick returns.

Either way, you think he's on the bubble and ineffective in many ways on special teams. I think differently, and feel that his numbers and TD's have backed that up, not to mention the fact that he made some tackles in the special teams department too last year. To me, that is a ST ace, or as close to one that we're likely going to have.

No big deal, only time will tell.

Julian Edelman shows versatility for Patriots

I don't think hes ineffective. Hes proven to be effective.

My reasoning is that he is not GREAT and because he is not great he is at risk because of the depth at other positions. I'm looking at the numbers and his ranking league wide. I can only go by what hes done.

We'll see. I do like him. It's not like hes Myron Pryor who can't stay healthy.