Day 3 Observations from Reiss

[patchick]

I would expect a 7th round pick who has made peanuts in terms of NFL salaries (and some say is 'on the bubble' of not even making the team) to be relatively cheap, assuming that they wish to re-sign him of course.

He probably won't get too many opportunities as long as Welker is healthy, but one possible scenario is that he steps into the slot role next year, except a lot cheaper and younger.

I've been an Edelman fan since I watched him in his first TC, but I think there's a tough little catch-22 here. If he gets some real opportunities at WR this season, and gets to show off his elite quickness, then the Pats will have plenty of competition for he services and his price tag will rise. And if he doesn't, then are you really prepared to count on a guy who's done precious little in 4 years in the league as your primary slot receiver?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I've been an Edelman fan since I watched him in his first TC, but I think there's a tough little catch-22 here. If he gets some real opportunities at WR this season, and gets to show off his elite quickness, then the Pats will have plenty of competition for he services and his price tag will rise. And if he doesn't, then are you really prepared to count on a guy who's done precious little in 4 years in the league as your primary slot receiver?

Which might be why the Pats decided to double down with another "E" this year in Ebert. . . .

 

[patfanken]

On the bubble means that there is a chance of the player being cut.

Bob,he was using the term metaphorically.

Who perceives that Edelman has this potential? You? Why hasn't he excelled at other WR positions? You are dellusional if you think Edelman will jump into WWs position and catch 100 balls for 1200 yards. He doesn't have his skill or talent.

Because his skill set happens to fit what a slot receiver does? "Are you OBTUSE" (sorry just couldn't resist the Shawshank Redemption reference) People have made this point to you on several occasions and you just don't seem to acknowledge it. The WR position has evolved to the point where the skill sets between a slot receiver and an outside the numbers receiver is as different as between a TE and a traditional WR.

Then there are 2 other points that are said over and over. First he never played WR until he came to the Pats. Could it be that the Pats wisely limited his responsibilities to the slot position these last few years as he grew. Let me said it again. He had NEVER been a WR in his life before he came here. Yet you seem to think that he can immediately become proficient in all the various skills to be an inside and outside receiver.....and still become a key special teams player and DB on the side.

Edelman is not a proven, consistient NFL WR

. [/QUOTE] As point out, again MANY times, in the one instance were he was given consistent snaps in the slot he was VERY consistent. Why do you choose to ignore that fact

The others are and have been productive in this offense. Especially Branch.

Branch is a HORRIBLE analogy here. Branch doesn't play the same position. Even at his best, Branch wouldn't have lasted 3 games playing the slot and taking shots over the middle. Branch is competing with Gaffney and Stallworth to see who will back up Lloyd and/or be the "other" outside receiver in certain spread formations. Apples to Oranges, Bob.

Seeing that he is in the last year of his deal and has not been re-upped like Slater, Edelman is far from being a core special teamer. Slater with his deal is.

That is just your uniformed opinion Bob. Until this season is finished and the Pats offer him a deal, no one knows how they view Edelman. Not you..... or I

I think my prior posts do look at the big picture. Edelman is a medicore WR. Sub-standard DB and a decent return guy. With all the WRs and DBs that are better than him in camp, he needs to be the second comming of Devin Hester to make this team.

This is a glib response, but an inaccurate one for many reasons that I'm just to tired to debunk, since you'll ignore the valid points anyhow.

 

[supafly]

I've been an Edelman fan since I watched him in his first TC, but I think there's a tough little catch-22 here. If he gets some real opportunities at WR this season, and gets to show off his elite quickness, then the Pats will have plenty of competition for he services and his price tag will rise. And if he doesn't, then are you really prepared to count on a guy who's done precious little in 4 years in the league as your primary slot receiver?

I don't really believe that Edelman will get too many opportunities this season, unless Welker gets hurt of course. I think that we'll see some trickery from time to time, trying to showcase his skills, but I don't think that he's suddenly going to line up wide and set the world on fire either. His skillset is in the slot, as we've seen with our own eyes when he's been given a chance.

One scenario is that he finally gets more opportunities next year, but that is just one scenario of many.

All in all, I don't believe that he's going to get the opportunity to showcase anything too much this year--barring injuries of course. His job is still more than safe in my opinion, due to his ST presence, versatility, and upside.

It is however possible that we already have a very capable replacement (not saying that he can take over all of the production, b/c that would be silly when compared to such an elite talent) for the slot role that Welker has excelled in while here. After all, we've seen it with our own eyes when he was given the chance, and against elite defensive talent such as Baltimore too.

Conspiracy theories aside, and speculation about the future aside-- I don't see any reason to believe that someone who has been taught an entirely new position, has shown flashes when given the opportunity in the SLOT, (not outside, as he does not do very well there, luckily we probably won't need to explore that experiment this year), has worked incredibly hard, has proven versatility by being able to learn multiple positions/attended meetings on both sides of the ball etc, and whose bread and butter is already ST, will have any problem in making the team.

Only time will tell, but I would not put him up against guys like Branch/Stallworth in his chances of making the team based on WR depth alone, as he has a lot more worth + different abilities than that.

 

[supafly]

are you really prepared to count on a guy who's done precious little in 4 years in the league as your primary slot receiver?

I think that your point is valid, but if we're going to speculate that a guy like Ebert (who doesn't have any knowledge of the system here, no NFL experience, has not shown us any type of hard work ethic, hasn't shown any flashes in his opportunities in the slot, and hasn't offering a single thing as far as ST/versatility goes) can suddenly step in and take over, why wouldn't we think that Edelman is the next in line? I would imagine that speculation regarding Ebert as the next slot receiver would be a lot farther away from speculation regarding Edelman, but that's just my personal opinion of course.

No one knows what goes on in the weekly practices, no one knows how far he's come, and no one knows what Belichick's plan is in regards to the situation...but it's not THAT much of a stretch to think that someone who has proven to be quite shifty, knows the system already, practices it every single day, and had people here stating that "he'd easily catch 80+ balls if Welker couldn't go when coming back from ACL surgery" would at least have the chance to take over the role.

My opinion is that he'll be signed to a relatively cheap/very fair extension, but others could certainly be correct too in their thinking that Bill Belichick will simply cut someone with upside, versatility, proven ST ability, and moves like that. We will see soon enough

 

[jah]

Seeing that he is in the last year of his deal and has not been re-upped like Slater, Edelman is far from being a core special teamer. Slater with his deal is.

Slater wasn't re-upped until his contract ran out. How do we know they aren't looking at Edelman the same way?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bob,he was using the term metaphorically..

OK. I'm not a mindreader.

Because his skill set happens to fit what a slot receiver does? "Are you OBTUSE" (sorry just couldn't resist the Shawshank Redemption reference) People have made this point to you on several occasions and you just don't seem to acknowledge it. The WR position has evolved to the point where the skill sets between a slot receiver and an outside the numbers receiver is as different as between a TE and a traditional WR..

I completely understand the difference between a slot, flanker and split end.

Then there are 2 other points that are said over and over. First he never played WR until he came to the Pats. Could it be that the Pats wisely limited his responsibilities to the slot position these last few years as he grew. Let me said it again. He had NEVER been a WR in his life before he came here. Yet you seem to think that he can immediately become proficient in all the various skills to be an inside and outside receiver.....and still become a key special teams player and DB on the side. .

Never implied that he can be immediately proficient. I've implied the exact opposite which is that he can't and is unable to because of his lack of experience and individual strengths.

As point out, again MANY times, in the one instance were he was given consistent snaps in the slot he was VERY consistent. Why do you choose to ignore that fact..

Lets JEs 3 best games. Game 1 was the opener w/o WW and he played ok. 2nd best game was a 59-0 blowout garbage time game. 3rd was most of his catches were in a meaningless game vs HOU where he was catching passes from Hoyer.

Branch is a HORRIBLE analogy here. Branch doesn't play the same position. Even at his best, Branch wouldn't have lasted 3 games playing the slot and taking shots over the middle. Branch is competing with Gaffney and Stallworth to see who will back up Lloyd and/or be the "other" outside receiver in certain spread formations. Apples to Oranges, Bob..

Seems that you are ignoring my point. I said Branch could run SOME of the WW route. My point is that if WW goes away, TB would rather throw to 5 other WRs/TEs than JE setting up in the slot.

That is just your uniformed opinion Bob. Until this season is finished and the Pats offer him a deal, no one knows how they view Edelman. Not you..... or I..

Fair enough. But for someone to imply that Edelman is core STer is equally uninformed.

This is a glib response, but an inaccurate one for many reasons that I'm just to tired to debunk, since you'll ignore the valid points anyhow.

It's opinion and feel free to ignore it. Doesn't really matter. Patfranken- you know football but you are coming across as a fan who thinks JE should be kept just because he is WWs most suitable backup inthe slot as opposed to keeping the 6 best WRs and modify the offense accordingly. Makes zero sense.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Bob,he was using the term metaphorically.
Because his skill set happens to fit what a slot receiver does? "Are you OBTUSE" (sorry just couldn't resist the Shawshank Redemption reference) People have made this point to you on several occasions and you just don't seem to acknowledge it. The WR position has evolved to the point where the skill sets between a slot receiver and an outside the numbers receiver is as different as between a TE and a traditional WR.

Just had to give this props, simply for the Shawshank reference.

 

[supafly]

On the bubble means that there is a chance of the player being cut.

I hope that you aren't being serious, RW.

Who perceives that Edelman has this potential? You?

You keep failing to mention that Edelman led the AFC in punt returns in 2010, coming in 2nd in the NFL overall to only Devin Hester.

Last year he came in 6th in the AFC, but his 24 yd average on kickoff returns made up for that. Both seasons he scored a punt return TD, so he certainly has something on ST.

He broke all the records in college that were held by Josh Cribbs, totalling over 3,400 yards on offense in a single season in 2008.

Here is a quote from the man who enjoys blowing smoke up everyone's asses and throwing out praise for no good reason, Mr. Bill Belichick himself:

"“Julian has those skills to be able to compete at that position for the same reasons he can do that on offense,” Belichick said Thursday. “He’s strong, he’s quick, he’s got good toughness, he’s got good lateral quickness and change of direction. [Some of what] you want for the defender to cover that receiver are the same things that make him a competitive slot receiver.”

In the 2009 season finale (his rookie year), he caught 10 balls for 103 yds vs the Texans. In the playoff game in Welker's absence, he caught 2 TD's and made a remarkable play where 4-5 defenders tried to bring him down.

Please don't act like I am the only one who sees potential in Julian Edelman, for that is completely ridiculous on so many levels. He may never live up to it, but there have been many who have seen potential in him. If we're going to talk about an unproven NFL rookie who may never make the team in Jeremy Ebert taking over Welker's role, then we can surely include someone who has already done it succesfully when given the limited opportunity. Let's at least be fair.

 

[supafly]

Patfranken- you know football but you are coming across as a fan who thinks JE should be kept just because he is WWs most suitable backup inthe slot as opposed to keeping the 6 best WRs and modify the offense accordingly. Makes zero sense.

Once again, you are somehow putting Edelman's hopes on his competition for a WR spot, when everyone keeps pointing out to you that his special team value alone almost guarantees him a spot.

 

[supafly]

Fair enough. But for someone to imply that Edelman is core STer is equally uninformed.

He led the AFC in punt returns, coming in 2nd in the entire NFL behind Devin Hester in 2010.

He had a 24 ypa on kickoff returns last year.

He has scored return TD's in both of the past 2 yrs, and is capable of taking it to the house on any given return.

When someone sets a NEP franchise record for punt return average, and often plays on BOTH of the kickoff and punt return teams, that kind of makes them a 'core special teamer' in many people's eyes.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

He led the AFC in punt returns, coming in 2nd in the entire NFL behind Devin Hester in 2010.

He had a 24 ypa on kickoff returns last year.

He has scored return TD's in both of the past 2 yrs, and is capable of taking it to the house on any given return.

When someone sets a NEP franchise record for punt return average, and often plays on BOTH of the kickoff and punt return teams, that kind of makes them a 'core special teamer' in many people's eyes.

Oh, fun fact from NESN:

Watching back at Kent State University, in Ohio, Edelman’s college coach saw it right away, as his onetime quarterback flew downfield to make the game’s opening tackle on special teams. “I came into the coach’s office and said, ‘Guys, I promise you the first thing Julian mentions will be that he made the first tackle of the game,’” said Golden Flashes head coach Doug Martin, with a chuckle. Sure enough, when Martin answered Edelman’s phone call Friday morning, hello was replaced with, “Coach did you see my tackle?”

That was, of course, from the Iggles game where he scored a punt return TD.

Read more at: Patriots Polishing Edelman to Be Special Team Stud - John Chandler - NESN.com

 

[italia44]

Does anyone know how hard it is to return punts in the NFL?............jeezus!....Edelperson had two returns for Td's,that were absolutely electric.IIRC he had another called back.Excluding Devin Hester,is anyone as dangerous on returns?

In their long careers,Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker have ZERO combined punt return TD's.Is it possible,with another year of experience,JE could be even better?......absofrigginlutely!

How many current NFL receivers could learn to be the slot recvr for the Patriots?....not many.....Gaffney?...maybe......Branch?....no way,not anymore.Anyone remember the playoff game without Welker?Edelperson WAS the whole offense,that day.

Branch and Stallworth are at risk because of no slot and no special teams.....Danny Woodhead may be at risk.....but Edelperson?.....no way:rocker:

 

[supafly]

Oh, fun fact from NESN:



That was, of course, from the Iggles game where he scored a punt return TD.

Read more at: Patriots Polishing Edelman to Be Special Team Stud - John Chandler - NESN.com

The kid can tackle, no doubt about it. He may not have the experience that many others have at it, but what he showed was almost a textbook definition of bringing his man down by the legs.

Great story, I am sure his coach got a kick out of that.

Not quite a Larry Izzo 'under the table' moment of pride, but I am sure he was excited nonetheless

 

[supafly]

Does anyone know how hard it is to return punts in the NFL?............jeezus!....Edelperson had two returns for Td's,that were absolutely electric.IIRC he had another called back.Excluding Devin Hester,is anyone as dangerous on returns?

In their long careers,Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker have ZERO combined punt return TD's.Is it possible,with another year of experience,JE could be even better?......absofrigginlutely!

How many current NFL receivers could learn to be the slot recvr for the Patriots?....not many.....Gaffney?...maybe......Branch?....no way,not anymore.Anyone remember the playoff game without Welker?Edelperson WAS the whole offense,that day.

Branch and Stallworth are at risk because of no slot and no special teams.....Danny Woodhead may be at risk.....but Edelperson?.....no way:rocker:

There definitely was a TD return called back too, you are right. That would've made it 3 total.

I believe it was in the December game in 2010 at Chicago, but I'm just going from memory alone.

IIRC, the block in the back was away from the play, after Edelman had already blown by him. I can't stand when those illegal blocks don't even affect the actual play.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He led the AFC in punt returns, coming in 2nd in the entire NFL behind Devin Hester in 2010.

He did very well but Cason and McCluster finished with a better average. So what if they had a few less PRs. Last year he was 26th out of 50 players in return average. Don't compare Edelman to Hester.

He had a 24 ypa on kickoff returns last year.

OK which was 49th out of 49 players who made returns.

NFL Stats: by Player Category

He has scored return TD's in both of the past 2 yrs, and is capable of taking it to the house on any given return.

Ok. Thats decent. Hes had two taken away by a penalty as well but we can't count those.

When someone sets a NEP franchise record for punt return average, and often plays on BOTH of the kickoff and punt return teams, that kind of makes them a 'core special teamer' in many people's eyes.

One year's record does not make one hill of beans the following season. For what it's worth, there are about 10 KR/PR in Pats history that are better than Edelman so using a single season record to support your "Save Edelman" cause doesn't make sense.

Edelman is a decent return guy. Hes still a bubble player.

 

[shmessy]

Thanks for sharing. I certainly do hope he makes the team. I like him and he absolutely has value. The question is how much value and is it enough to make the 2012 roster.

This would be a moot point if we had just one REAL offensive lineman learn how to long-snap instead of having some "specialist" do it.

 

[Sfpat]

I've been an Edelman fan since I watched him in his first TC, but I think there's a tough little catch-22 here. If he gets some real opportunities at WR this season, and gets to show off his elite quickness, then the Pats will have plenty of competition for he services and his price tag will rise. And if he doesn't, then are you really prepared to count on a guy who's done precious little in 4 years in the league as your primary slot receiver?

Let's see. Awhile back, Green Bay gave their QB job to a guy who had done precious little in 4 years in the league and it turned out OK for them. I'm sure if Edelman continues to learn, BB will be willing to count on him next year, even if he does precious little this year.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Does anyone know how hard it is to return punts in the NFL?............jeezus!....Edelperson had two returns for Td's,that were absolutely electric.IIRC he had another called back.Excluding Devin Hester,is anyone as dangerous on returns?

In their long careers,Kevin Faulk and Wes Welker have ZERO combined punt return TD's.Is it possible,with another year of experience,JE could be even better?......absofrigginlutely!

Always felt like Edelman was our present and future at PR. He already had a season as an elite PR man and as you said should only get better. I remember Troy Brown being nothing too special as a returner then became a stud returner in 2000 and especially 2001. Edelman had big returns in both 2009 and 2010 playoff games that could have turned those games around had our offense not floundered the opportunities he provided. I'm perfectly fine with him as our PR. Just wish we could find a more effective KR than him and Woodhead.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Let's see. Awhile back, Green Bay gave their QB job to a guy who had done precious little in 4 years in the league and it turned out OK for them.

Are you comparing the plight of a 1st round draft pick that only plays one position to Julian Edelman who has an opportunity to play multiple WR positions and for 3 years hasn't been able to nail down a regular role in the offense?

I'm sure if Edelman continues to learn, BB will be willing to count on him next year, even if he does precious little this year.

Count on him to do what? Play the slot and pick up WWs production? I hope not or we are in trouble. Let me ask you, what you think Edelman will do if he is in on 600 passing plays? Figure on 400 receptions divided up over Gronk, AH, Lloyd and lets guess that Stallworth and Gaffney are around in 2013. Yards & receptions will do.