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Could we use Jarvis as the "Elephant"?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RayClay, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Thought this was worth a thread

    Just had a thought and looking for some of you more knowledgeable posters to help me out.

    Could we use Jarvis at the "elephant position"? That is give a 3-4 look rather than a classic 4-3?

    Could he be trained to minimally cover the LB responsibilities so we get his pass rush without giving up the advantages of a 3-4.

    I'm asking because I'm not a great Xs Os guy, but I think we miss Willie's pass rush abilities.

    Of course I hope we draft such a player in the future.

    Thoughts?
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    Isn't Elephant a position designation from Pete Carrol's D? Oh - and NO. Jarvis can't be there - he's a DL, not an LB, and will never be an LB.
  4. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    I got my balls cut off for suggesting the same thing. But i am probably going to end up right.

    Just like how I ended up when i said we need to trade Deion Branch and that it would happen.

    I am right about everything.
  5. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Jarvis is alot faster than the other d-linemen rushing the passer. I noticed this at the end of the detroit game when he forced kitna to throw that pick to vrabel. he closed in on kitna fast. i would love to see the pats allow him to rush more whether as a 4-3 end or put him outside in a 3-4 to rush the passer mainly.

    he's pretty quick. it appears the o-linemen hold colvin constantly and only gets by them later in the game when he wears them down.
  6. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    So I can't start a thread because Keegs did?

    I hope that doesn't mean I have to go back and read all his threads I bypassed.:D

    In my defense, We're talking post Seau here and one injury away from who lnows what at linebacker.

    I think it's an emergency measure that might come up and therefore, worth discussing.
  7. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Everyone knows, that you read the latest threads and if his got buried, so be it. props to you for resurrecting it.
  8. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Actually I think of it as being LB Lawrence Taylor or DE Richard Dent first.

    Here's a little blurb mentioning others.

    http://www.kffl.com/player/6614/nfl

    John Crumpacker, of SFGate.com, reports the San Francisco 49ers' transformation to a 3-4 defensive scheme will allow DE Andre Carter to become the team's primary pass-rush specialist in the 'elephant' mold of former DE Charles Haley or Hall of Fame LB Lawrence Taylor (Giants).
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2006
  9. sieglo

    sieglo Rookie

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    I for one can't wait to see Jarvis dropping back into coverage. :bricks:
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
  10. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Now now. Have you espied our linebacker depth lately?

    We might have to experiment with some unconventional lineups.
  11. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I think there's a distinction between suggesting an elephant role and a LB role. As was pointed out, Jarvis is bigger than a lot of LBs - but he's also faster than most DEs.

    In that respect he's closer to McGinest in that he's a smaller DE - and of course, McGinest often played the Elephant role.

    So it wouldn't suprise me to see him used in that role at all.
  12. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As wild and speculative as this is, I would not be greatly surprised if BB has covertly worked out Jarvis in some emergency LB role, a la Troy Brown. I don't think it's so but it is not wildly improbable either. It requires a more in-depth knowlege of the player and his capabilities than I as a fan can assess.
  13. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Thanks Joe, that's what I'm talking about.

    I believe the Elephant rushes on every play so he wouldn't have coverage responsibilities, although he would have run support responsibilities.

    In the 3-4, the rush could come from any linebacker.

    With the elephant it could come from any location, behind, or on the line, but Jarvis would be expected to rush, not cover for a linebacker.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2006
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    And really, in a true sense of the Elephant position, he hangs back a bit, keeps his eye on the ball, then makes his move as the play develops - that's the nature of the position, isn't it?

    Jarvis outweighs Willie by 15 lbs. and is a bit shorter - but overall I think Green is still faster than Willie. So if McGinest could do it, I'm unclear why everyone thinks there's no way Jarvis could play the same role.

    What am I missing?
  15. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Yeah, the idea is, you know he's rushing but you don't know from where.

    He could crowd the line at snap, or look for a gap, left or right.

    I believe Richard Dent was doing this to us in the 85 Super Bowl, but I'm not sure and it's not worth undoing the years of therapy trying to recall.:eek:
  16. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Not really advocating this as much as trying to draw out the X+O types to see if there are problems with this with coverage responsibilities, etc.

    Jarvis is heavier than the others at Elephant, but he's fast and maybe our best pure pass rusher.

    Pass rushing in the first 3 quarters is not a strength right now IMO.
  17. chris66

    chris66 Rookie

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    BB is secretly practicing ben watson as an outside lb, 260 with 4.4 speed, if he can get open on offense he can cover on defense ala troy brown
  18. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I assume you're joking as I can't believe that BB would risk injuring or tiring out one of his only legitimate receiving threats on defense.

    Troy's a different case as he's typically been the 3rd, 4th or 5th WR when being asked to save a roster spot as an emergency DB.
  19. chris66

    chris66 Rookie

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    of course I'm joking, but if we had a better and deeper receiver core I could see it happening. I dont put anything by BB. Brown as a db, vrabel as a te, seymour as a fb. you have to admit there is a track record there
  20. Flying Fungi

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    Before there is too much angst posted in this thread, I would like to push it further in the direction of the Elephant role differing from a 'traditional' OLB.

    When I first conjectured Jarvis as the Elephant, I was looking at him replacing only a portion of Willie's responsibilities. This is not about him being a 3 or 4 down OLB--it is about lining him up as the extra player in the spot that is typically an OLB. He is capable and has been used out of a 2-point and 3-point stance.

    The argument back towards the NFl-DE-as-OLB is--what do you call a DE in a 2-point stance on the outside of a 5-2 alignment?

    I would call him the Elephant.

    Similarly, a 3-4 can be disguised as a 4-3 by having a 'typical' DE lined up on the outside. This creates confusion and mismatches.

    Belichick teams have always stressed versatility, and having a player that can morph into multiple roles is the height of value from a salary slot. It also explains why a non-starting 'DE' is making as much as Jarvis is.
  21. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I might have been a little confused in my post but I did title it elephant and that is not the same as an OLB.

    Just a way to get some extra pass rush occasionally from different angles.

    I don't think he's been used as a "classic" elephant, which is bouncing all around until the snap to confuse the offense.

    My thought about pass coverage responsibilities obviously doesn't make sense if the only role is as a pass rusher anyway.

    My confusion is in the McGinest comparison where he played this role before developing into a complete linebacker who could switch at will.

    Obviously, we don't have that type of player, although Vrabel is close.
  22. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    McGinest is listed as a DE and not a LB - but he's clearly a tweener and its almost pointless to get stuck on position titles in these cases.

    In any event whereas many DEs are in the 300 lb. range - Jarvis at 285 is smaller than many - and clearly has shown a nice burst of speed (3 sacks in a game show that as well)

    In any event there's no question in my mind that Jarvis could be used as an Elephant - the issue is, will he be. I think we all trust the coach to make the right call on that.
  23. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Which is why I had to ask the question of whether you were joking. I'd rule nothing out.

    Brown, by the way, until we signed Testeverde, was also our third string QB - and has thrown a few passes in games himself if I recall correctly.

    Also if you recall, Patten had a game where he had TDs as a WR, RB and QB (passing)

    So anything's possible - I just definately don't see him risking Watson in that way.

    Our "best" receiver this year - whether its Caldwell or Watson, projects at 65 passes caught this season. Neither numbers are exactly #1 WR caliber but collectively its ok - but if one goes out with an injury going into the playoffs, I'm not all that optimistic about our offense.

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