Comparing Tom Brady & Ben Roethlisberger - THE FIRST 5 YEARS

[Deus Irae]

No but objective football analysis is obviously a problem for you. Your gerrymandering of statistics to prove a weak-ass point about a QB you obviously dislike, when the majority of Pats fans in this thread can give Ben credit for what he's done, is plain laughable.

How did I gerrymander the stats? Did I somehow make him throw the exact same number of passes in two different seasons?

Oh, wait... I had nothing to do with that. As I wrote:

This year, when they became more of a throwing team out of necessity, he threw 17 touchdowns and 15 interceptions, and had an 80.1 passer rating. In fact, in the two seasons that he's passed the most, he's combined for 35 touchdowns and 38 interceptions, and had passer ratings of 75.4 and 80.1.

 

[qbert]

How did I gerrymander the stats? Did I somehow make him throw the exact same number of passes in two different seasons?

The past three years the Steelers have been close to 50-50 run pass, which is much different than Ben's first two years at QB. So ignoring his 2007 stats where he threw for 32 TDs, 11 INTs with a 65.3% completion rate and 104.1 rating, just because he made 60 fewer attempts that year, is gerrymandering on your part to support your slanted opinion of Ben.

 

[maverick4]

Wait till you hear his slanted viewpoints when it comes to why he thinks Favre or McDaniels are flawless

 

[stinkypete]

The word gerrymander does not belong on a football forum.

Ben is absolutely the #3 QB in the NFL right now. He guts out some big wins. Brees, Warner and Rivers have the numbers, but if your team is in a big game and BRady and Manning are not available, who do you want to start at QB?

 

[maverick4]

Look at his record, all Big Ben does is win, after Tom Brady of course

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Bulger, Culpepper and Pennington all rank ahead of Brady in all-time QB Rating.

Good point
Stats are stats

Tom will finish his career better than Ben.

Ben is a great QB to have-he's tough

There are similarities in stats but it really is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Disco Volante]

Super Bowl 40

TDs: 0
INTs: 2
Yards: 123
Completion Percentage: 42.9% (9/21)
QB Rating: 22.6

Steelers Defense

2004: 1st (258.4)
2005: 4th (284.0)
2006: 9th (300.3)
2007: 1st (266.4)
2008: 1st (237.2)

Steelers Passing Offense

2004: 28th (170.0)
2005: 24th (182.9)
2006: 9th (233.3) *However, worst year of career. (23 INTs)*
2007: 22nd (191.9)
2008: 17th (206.3)

 

[Deus Irae]

The past three years the Steelers have been close to 50-50 run pass, which is much different than Ben's first two years at QB. So ignoring his 2007 stats where he threw for 32 TDs, 11 INTs with a 65.3% completion rate and 104.1 rating, just because he made 60 fewer attempts that year, is gerrymandering on your part to support your slanted opinion of Ben.

Look, let me try to lay this out for you, again.

The initial premise was that teams have historically wanted him to throw.

I went to the data to point to the season where he threw the most passes.

He has 2 seasons where he's thrown the exact same number of passes as his highest pass totals. That's not me gerrymandering anything.

Those 2 seasons happen to be 2 of the past 3 seasons. Again, that's not me gerrymandering anything.

Those two seasons have resulted in the statistics I pointed out. That's not me gerrymandering anything either.

Whether you look at those seasons individually or together, the touchdown/int ratios and the passer ratings are still not good. That's not me gerrymandering anything. That's just the data.

You can try inserting the one year in between all you want. It doesn't have anything at all to do with the point I was making.

Furthermore, are you saying that one good year out of 3 makes him a quarterback developing into a Brady? Brady has never had a season throwing more picks than touchdowns, unlike Ben. Brady's lowest rating as a starter iis 85.7. Ben's been below that twice already, including a 75.4 season 3 years ago, and an 80.1 rating just this season.

Frankly, rather than tossing in a season that had nothing to do with the point I was making, you should have taken a look at the number of rushing touchdowns inside of 10 yards, or something along those lines to try to explain the numbers. I don't know if it would have helped the argument, but I doubt it could have been worse than "But this other season that WASN'T one where he threw the most passes!".

 

[jmt57]

qbert, I think we all agree that absolute numbers (such as total passing yards, total touchdowns) are going to be lower for a team that has less total pass attempts and a lower percentage of passing plays, such as the Steelers do during the time Roethlisberger has played in Pittsburgh.

In Deus' defense, I think he was trying to compare apples to apples by focusing on the seasons he threw the most passes, looking at stats that compare percentages rather than total yards, ratios like TD/INT that seem to be accepted as worthwile benchmarks, and rankings like QB rating that compare multiple stats based on percentages.

By the same token, the comeback drives, specifically against the Cardinals, Ravens, and Jaguars are very noteworthy. The numbers show up in the stats but the significance does not. I don't think the people here are completely discounting those accomplishments; it's just that they are looking at more than the highlight reel and rings.

Many Steeler fans were vociferously calling for Roethlisberger's benching earlier this season. Welcome him back as a fan favorite and relish the SB victory, but it's a bit premature to include him with Peyton and Brady. As I recall Giant fans and some in the media were saying the same thing about Eli last year, and guys like Mike Vick and Daunte Culpepper just a few years ago.

 

[MassPats38]

I don't think Big Ben is or will be a Brady, but his skill set certainly places him far above mediocre. He does not have Brady's arm plus accuracy, nor Brady's field presence (watching the Steelers-Colts game this year it did not look like he could run a 2-minute offense - apparently figured it out for the last game), but he is freakishly strong and capable of moving to give receivers time to get open. Whether a QB can thread a laser shot or is capable of stringing out a play to let defenses break down, the result is the same - passes get caught. And don't forget Brady evolved as a QB in style and performance. I'm not sure I would ever call Ben a pure passer, but what he is works.

The fact is while stats may be comparable over a period of a career, I do not envision Big Ben ripping off offensive super numbers with his style as is, but he is certainly on track for a Hall of Fame run with two rings at this point in his career (compare him to Aikman and see how that plays out). Other than Brady and Manning (and yes, Favre), and maybe Warner, there are not many active QBs who can make that claim at this point.

 

[Sivy]

The word gerrymander does not belong on a football forum.

Ben is absolutely the #3 QB in the NFL right now. He guts out some big wins. Brees, Warner and Rivers have the numbers, but if your team is in a big game and BRady and Manning are not available, who do you want to start at QB?

As much as it suck, id say warner.

 

[Dino 6 Rings]

Look, let me try to lay this out for you, again.

The initial premise was that teams have historically wanted him to throw.

I went to the data to point to the season where he threw the most passes.

He has 2 seasons where he's thrown the exact same number of passes as his highest pass totals. That's not me gerrymandering anything.

Those 2 seasons happen to be 2 of the past 3 seasons. Again, that's not me gerrymandering anything.

Those two seasons have resulted in the statistics I pointed out. That's not me gerrymandering anything either.

Whether you look at those seasons individually or together, the touchdown/int ratios and the passer ratings are still not good. That's not me gerrymandering anything. That's just the data.

You can try inserting the one year in between all you want. It doesn't have anything at all to do with the point I was making.

Furthermore, are you saying that one good year out of 3 makes him a quarterback developing into a Brady? Brady has never had a season throwing more picks than touchdowns, unlike Ben. Brady's lowest rating as a starter iis 85.7. Ben's been below that twice already, including a 75.4 season 3 years ago, and an 80.1 rating just this season.

Frankly, rather than tossing in a season that had nothing to do with the point I was making, you should have taken a look at the number of rushing touchdowns inside of 10 yards, or something along those lines to try to explain the numbers. I don't know if it would have helped the argument, but I doubt it could have been worse than "But this other season that WASN'T one where he threw the most passes!".

You know, you keep going back to the 06 Season as his "worst year" and using that to point out how he isn't great. That was the Same season he face planted a freaking windshield in the Summer, had his appendix removed in August and basically only played because the 2nd option was Maddox and that was a disaster.

Yeah, they threw way to much in 06. Bettis had just retired, the Head Coach didn't have his heart in the game, and Ben probably should have sat out that season. The following year he tried to take the entire offense on his back and had a great passing season, but this year, he played within his means, and did exactly what he needed to do in the Big Games. That's the discussion.

Is he not as good as Payton as a pure passer. He is not as good as Tom as a leader of the offense. However, he is a great Player of the Game and he makes Big Plays in big Games.

He's a winner.

 

[SteelerSteve]

Dang, its been forever since I've been on here (last time was before boot camp I think ) But I was lurking around and noticed this thread....I got to say that stats are important and so are rings and what not, but I think that it can be a bit analyzed too much. mediocre stats can be misleading as can inflated stats due to an offense that runs a high percentage of passing plays. The most simple way to decipher whether or not a quarterback is a good player or not is just to watch them play. Peyton and Brady are the two best qb's in the league and you can tell they are pretty awesome players without ever looking at a stat line, and I believe the same can be said for Ben. I dont know that I could say the same for a guy that puts up a lot of big time passing numbers like Palmer or Bree's, when I watch a Bengals game ( though I admit to be a little biased lol) I dont really feel like Palmer would be my top choice to win the game with everything on the line. Well, anyways now I am rambling, but there's my two cents.

 

[SteelerSteve]

Oh and for the record I just have to throw out another stat...500 yard games Ben 1 Brady none...lol I am saying that lightheartedly, but I do think that this season Ben has proven that he isn't only someone that you rely on to exclusively manage the game and let the rest of the team do the work. Redzone offense was kinda the problem for the steelers this year. ugh, not too mention that the steelers missed the playoffs this year but eh what can you do...I think we can all agree that the offseason blows

 

[Sivy]

Oh and for the record I just have to throw out another stat...500 yard games Ben 1 Brady none...lol I am saying that lightheartedly, but I do think that this season Ben has proven that he isn't only someone that you rely on to exclusively manage the game and let the rest of the team do the work. Redzone offense was kinda the problem for the steelers this year. ugh, not too mention that the steelers missed the playoffs this year but eh what can you do...I think we can all agree that the offseason blows

Brady could have thrown for 700 yarda against the Titans this year if he stayed in the entire game. Not to mention 90% of the 2007 season whe he only played 3 quarters of games.

 

[jmt57]

Dang, its been forever since I've been on here (last time was before boot camp I think ) But I was lurking around and noticed this thread.

Wow, how long did it take to find a 51-week old thread?

 

[Teenuh]

Okay, I don't mind having Tom compared to Manning, Favre, Warner or Brees. But having him compared to Ben Roethlisberger makes me want to....

:scream:

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Ben Rapelisberger has gotten too many concussions over his career and holds onto the ball too long.