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Christianity vs. every other religion...

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by Terry Glenn is a cowgirl, Oct 1, 2006.

  1. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    Why is it nowadays; that you can practice practically any kind of religion... as long as it leaves Jesus out of the picture?

    This is a very simple question...

    I'm not going to get my bible and bash everyone's head in (not my kind of thing...), but it is at the very least, curious.

    Something to ponder...
     
  2. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Whoever wrote here that "you can practice practically any kind of religion... as long as it leaves Jesus out of the picture?".

    I believe that Christianity is a wonderful religion and that the teachings of Jesus are important and worthwhile. If someone is a Christian then, obviously, Jesus is central to that person's beliefs.

    I believe that anyone should be free from any harrassment to practice any religion they feel. There is a difference between someone who has Jesus in his life and someone who constantly and unsolicitedly pushes his version of Jesus into other people's lives when such people have already said "for ourselves, no thank you, we're OK with what we have".

    I fully support your right to eat and enjoy lobster. Just respect my right to refuse one for myself. There need not be continuous followup interrogations. If it works for 3tobe4, then GREAT. I do appreciate the first offer, because he wants to help others in the way that he feels has helped himself. But when it becomes an ongoing campaign after the first refusal, then that is over the edge and is simply disrespectful of others' thoughts and beliefs.

    Pretty clear, no?
     
  3. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    one problem with that. I was attacked first. there was no "for ourselves, no thank you, we're OK with what we have". I didnt push a thing on you. I posted a link that said "Old Testament reasons for Jews to believe in Jesus" and I got a torrent of rude hostility. And the music videos and my "Please read this if you need Jesus" was not directed at any one person. It was for whover wanted to see it.

    If you and some others here didnt want to hear from me in the other threads over and over and over again you simply shoulnt have continually engaged me and insulted me.

    very simple.
     
  4. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 3 to be 4 8/16/2006:
    "logic would tell me that if you buy into all that, then Schmessy and NEM, you are both Orthodox Jews? Mozeltov! "


    Shmessy's original reply, 8/16/2006: "I'm not Orthodox, but I am a Jew. And I will never proselytize to you. My religious belief is inside me and strong. It is not force fed by someone tirelessly campaigning. Debating someone to submit to your paradigm does not result in a true believer. It must come from inside, not outside.

    Furthermore, in another thread you write that in the past 3 weeks "ive been getting into all kinds of scraps and embarrassing situations. Every time, its because ive been engaging in the "old me" behavior.Post a beautiful praising song to God one moment, and then post a mean spirited news story to get a chuckle over how stupid someone is, that kind of thing.On this site, i made a mean comment about a murder that happened at a Buffet. Sure enough, someone that knew the victim saw my link and was very hurt by it."

    Don't you think that that may be a little warning light indicator that maybe ....perhaps...you don't yet have the insight to be preaching to others??? Analogy: No one wants to get a driving lesson from a drunk.

    I TRULY wish you success in your search for INNER peace and understanding. I look forward to hearing about the progress you make."

    _____________________________

    The above was the first exchange you and I had on this website. It took place in a thread you originated titled: "Old Testament Reasons for Jews to Believe in Jesus". I think it appropriate now to complete the circle and post it here on this day.

    I am not going to state that "I am going to stop posting here anymore" - - that would be less than honest:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=41696

    However, at this moment in time, I am going to look in other directions on this website.

    As I ended my first post in response to your proselytizing, I will end this one with the same hope: I sincerely wish you the very best in your search for INNER peace and understanding.
     
  5. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Amen, Shmessy.

    PFnV
     
  6. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    check out post #18 on the Old Testament... thread

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=39204&page=2

    its funny how you conveniantly left that out. 2 posts BEFORE the one you quoted up here as our first exchange. You backed up what NEM's had to say. So you engaged me first. How would i know the name Schmessy if you had not fired a shot at me first?

    since these posts were so close together, you KNEW this when you posted the above quote. You are the definition for disengenuous.

    that being said. Good luck in your journey and be blessed.
     
  7. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    The post you reference in that thread was addressed towards NEM, not you, although it being a public website, anyone can chime in of course.

    In fact, for purposes of absolute clarity, here is that post verbatim:
    _______
    "Now THAT'S the stuff! Thank you NEM, that changed my life.
    If you have any more of those verses, I'm like a thirsty desert wanderer dreaming of this water............."
    _______

    I enjoy jousting with "crazy Uncle NEM in the attic". He takes a good natured ribbing well and, frankly, tends to bask in the attention. He had just posted two incredibly long and ponderous quotes that , I suspect, were lifted from a three minute Google search and I was merely ribbing him in a good natured way.

    If you step back and think about it, it is very funny that all this began because you thought that post was targeted at you!

    There was absolutely no motive to engage you in that post, however I am glad we've had our subsequent exchanges. You're trying and striving and that is a good thing.


    Best regards and thanks for the blessing.
     
  8. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    The premise of this thread is ridiculous. Christianity is only "discriminated" against in this country when there's a dispute as to whether some Christianity-friendly act on the part of the Government is just being friendly or whether it's actively pushing the religion on the public. Now, we DO have "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, "In God We Trust" on the currency, theology being pushed over science in school curricula, etc., etc. So those disputes arise a lot. But Christians are hardly an embattled minority.
     
  9. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    WRONG ANSWER.

    God ISN"T the same as Jesus.

    NOT EVEN CLOSE.

    Some people's God is Lucifer. Some people's God is porno movies. Some people's God is football.

    Come on now... wake up!!!!

    You just assumed that God was the same thing as Jesus... not true at all.
     
  10. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    Most people don't have the foggiest idea what REALLY is running this country.

    Pretty simple one though. You can even see it on the back of your $1 dollar bill.

    The people who REALLY run this place, use alot of smoke and mirror like-logic.

    They LOVE using symbolism and such...
     
  11. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    No. The people who put that phrase into the Pledge in the 1950s assumed that Jesus was God.
     
  12. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I finally met a Freemason last month. He was a near-incoherent janitor at a Caribbean resort. Who knew that he helped run the world??? Really, really nice guy, however. If we have to be run by idiots, better it be idiots like him.
     
  13. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Man Who Would Be King.
     
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Fencer: well put post (before we got all off-track into Masonry.)

    Were I an alien viewing these boards for the first time, I'd conclude that the difference between Christianity and every other religion, is that every other religion is somehow sufficient without publicizing its agenda at every turn, whereas Christianity is unable to function in private, and depends on external sources of constant rejuvenation through conversion; Look at all the Christian proselytizing threads. Look how many there are for other religions: none. I might even conclude that only Christians were permitted to proselytize, were I such a being.

    But of course, such a being would be at least in part mistaken. For not all Christians view the world through such an interpretive filter, and in fact, Christians are not the only religion permitted to proselytize; they are just the most frequent practicers hereabouts of proselytizing activity.

    Unfortunately, our hypothetical visitor would not be aware of this fact. Such a visitor would also be unaware that not every Christian is driven to proselytize to others who already have a faith of their own.

    This is the image we are creating for those with the least insight into the particulars of religion. Other differences between Christianity and other religions undoubtedly also exist; but for the non-Christian, this is the most apparent one from reading these boards.

    L'Shana Tova,

    PFnV
     
  15. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    another difference is that only Christianity is based on the belief of a God who loves us so much that he sent His only Son to die for us.

    not believing is a belief too, and that belief has had many more posts on this website than Christianity has.

    Love you guys. Have a blessed day.
     
  16. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    One thing I've often been confused about - and I'm not trying to be facetious or a jerk here - is the notion of Him "sending his Son"

    Where/What/Who was Jesus before he was "born" - did He "exist?"

    He's an only child apparently - but if Jesus was "born" on Earth, can't God have more "children"?

    This is one of those things that is intriguing to me but no one ever explains (or maybe they have and I just completely missed it)

    ... but it just kindof seems to me like there's no mention of God having a Son until the appearance of Jesus on Earth, but the notion of Him "sending his son" implies that Jesus existed before appearing on Earth and God Sent him here, but that's not necessarilly the case... indeed if I'm not mistaken he was conceived by Mary and did not exist... and further more that God always and only had one "son" and that he could not/would not have more....

    Although I guess that raises another issue of whether souls exist before conception and at what point in time a soul is created etc...

    Still, is my question understandable? I'm not trying to make any particular point - just trying to cut through what often appears to me as blind rhetoric that is never questioned by the faithful... at least that's how it appears to me.

    But if there's a simple explanation I'm very interested.
     
  17. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    http://www.custance.org/old/incarnation/5ch3.html

    Jesus existed before his birth to His virgin mother. And He lives on after his death on the cross. His resurrection is our hope. Thats why Easter is really the greatest Christian holiday. Jesus isnt a son the way you or I are the sons or daughters to our biological fathers. The trinity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are 3 parts of one. Think of an egg. The Shell, the yoke, and the white. 3 seperate parts, but all part of the egg. Or in the way, im one person. But im a father, a husband, and a son.

    its much clearer the more the Bible is read. But its a great question. And im sure there are other who couldnt explain more clear than I just did.
     
  18. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Interesting... is that widely accepted and understood... or is it simply the interpretation of Arthur Custance?

    I have no idea who Custance is or what credibility he brings to this debate, so I'm just asking... though this seems like someone who is going beyond a strict interpretation of the Bible, isn't it? That's not to say he's wrong though.

    Speaking of those into science - or science fiction - who have applied their interpretation, I'm reminded of C.S. Lewis' "Trilemma" theory... attempting to form a "proof" of the divinity of Jesus:

    According to the argument, most people are willing to accept Jesus Christ as a great moral teacher, but the Gospels record that Jesus made many claims to divinity, either explicitly — ("I and the father are one." John 10:30; when asked by the High priest whether he was the Son of God, Jesus replied "It is as you said" Matthew 26:64) — or implicitly, by assuming authority only God could have ("the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" Matthew 9:6). Lewis said there are three options:

    1. Jesus was telling falsehoods and knew it, and so he was a liar.
    2. Jesus was telling falsehoods but believed he was telling the truth, and so he was insane.
    3. Jesus was telling the truth, and so he was divine.

    Lewis’s argument, which stems from the medieval aut deus aut malus homo ("either God or an evil man"), was later expanded by the Christian apologist Josh McDowell (in his book More than a Carpenter) to serve as a logical proof to Jesus’s divinity. It is from this latter development that the term "trilemma" actually comes. The term is often used to refer to both arguments, assuming that in fact they are one and the same. Critics characterise this argument as an example of a false dilemma.

    Not trying make a point here really - just noting some of the thought that has gone into the question
     
  19. 3 to be 4

    3 to be 4 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    ah, my man, Josh McDowell. He and Lee Stroeble are excellent writers and journalists who both have a similar story of being non-believers who set out to do a objective journalistic research to prove that Jesus wasnt who He said He was, and when they couldnt, came to believe He was indeed the Son of God.

    btw, you said critics characterise this argument as an example of a false dilemma. in what way?

    m just asking because I like to know the reasons behind why people believe as they do and I can certainly learn from it.

    And also, to answer your question about whether it is widely accepted that Jesus shows up in the Old Testament, it is my experience within Bible based Christian circles that it is. And certainly there are hundreds of clear prophesies in the Old Testament that point the way to his arrival. As Josh McDowell has pointed out, over 300 prophesies being fulfilled through one man is a mathematical mind blower if there ever was one. Right down to the 30 coins he was betrayed for. Check out Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53.

    and again there is the point of all the witnesses who went to grisly, torturous deaths, standing by their story, when all any one of them had to do was recant. Do you know many people who would go through that? For what reward do they lie?

    anyway, didnt mean to go into all that, but I think a lot of the work of Josh McDowell.
     
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    I've heard the Lewis argument so often I'm baffled by its power for those who are already believers. I have to say, for those with no preexistent stake in Jesus being divine, it has no evident power. That is to say, there is nothing particularly distasteful about either of the two conclusions the orthodox Christian prefers one avoids, that Jesus was "speaking falsehood and knew it," or that he was "speaking falsehood and did not know it."

    The "false dilemma" arguments, too, seem far from disproven. To wit:

    Everybody who believes something that is not true, is not today held to be insane. For example, we do not have asylums full of Republicans (or Democrats, if you are of the Republican persuasion.) It is also a fact that in ancient times, it was a perfectly legitimate thing for people to decide they were the Messiah; if they were wrong, they were not generally held to be insane. They were simply held to be wrong (c.f. Simeon Bar Kochba). In all such cases, various aspects of the "end of days" did not come about (for example, the bodily resurrection.) In Jesus' own case, Jesus did not return within the lifetime of those individuals who heard his voice; etc. By explaining some of Jesus' words as literal, and others as allegorical, it becomes possible for the Christian to believe in his messiahship; to the non-Christian, these devices are not convincing.

    ***​

    3, please logically justify the statement that "lack of belief is a belief." I disagree. I do not say "lack of a bowling ball is a bowling ball," and then go "air bowling." I do not say "lack of a vote is a vote," and therefore attempt to justify the election of Gore over Bush based on people who did not vote (there was enough trouble with those who DID.) From first principles, the statement is nonsensical. I can understand that a firm, rock-solid faith in atheism could be characterized as akin to a firm belief in one or another religion. Conversely, however, to suspend judgment based on lack of evidence cannot be so characterized. And even the atheist must needs therefore base his arguments on empirical fact, not on prejudice or superstition, or he too must submit to characterization as subjectivist. If, however, he bases his argument on what all men can see and test, with the tests repeatable by a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Rastafarian, he is in fact appealing, rather, to objectivism. You and I and a dozen others can claim we "know God," and disagree on who He is. The "honorable" atheist says only that he knows creation -- and is careful to speak only from the objective evidence. That is, in the language of the religious man, the man of science describes the work of God; the religious man speaks subjectively the mind of man about God. Who is the bigger blasphemer?

    ***​

    Our word "Prophet" comes from the Greek "To speak forth" (Prophetes.) In the bible we see that if a prophet says a thing will come to pass, we may test that by the accuracy of the prediction. However, that is a test of a prophets capacities as a "soothsayer." This is not the primary function of the Hebrew prophets; their function can be better summed up in our phrase "speak truth to power" (as Elijah to Ahab, or as Nathan to David, in a story ending in one of my personal favorite verses, "Atah Ha-ish," or, "You are the man.")

    We also have prophets who speak in conditionals: if you do this, this will happen; if you do not do this, that will happen. This is the case with Jonah vis a vis the Ninevites. They repent, and nothing bad happens to them.

    So to make of prophecy a small matter of "soothsaying" (against which God provides specific commandments,) is to belittle the calling of prophecy from the beginning.

    As I've specified elsewhere here, I disagree with the practice of attempting to market one's own religion to others who have not asked (as opposed to prospective converts who come searching for your message.) It presupposes the insufficiency of others' beliefs, particularly when one goes in search of believers in another religion, as an audience. I see it as an ugly habit not tied specifically to one religion or another, but in my life I do see it as embraced by certain sects of Christianity most vehemently (and were I born in Iran, for example, I may see it as tied to an entirely different group.)

    But it should not be understood that proselytizing is restricted in any way to Christianity; only that the proselytizers most active in our culture are Christian proselytizers.

    PFnV
     

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