Camp Battles: RB

[psychoPat]

Wow, I don't know. He's a heckuva 3rd down back, terrific hands, great pass blocker. Great at selling the screen, critical to the hurry-up. I don't think of him as a backup, but as all three of M&M and Kevin splitting carries.

....

Right-o.

Say, Metaphors.
This is a useful series you're building.
I also find your way of thinking quite plausible.
Keep up the good work!

 

[flyonthewall]

The only fringe player I can think of who initially made the roster on ST and then actually was able to significantly contribute on offense or defense is David Givens.

You can argue that having a good STer is > than a RB3, but I don't buy that a vet RB would take the roster spot of a promising young player who currently needs to make the roster on ST alone.

Any of the Pat's (legitimate) promising young players will make the roster due to their future potential/current ability, not their ability to play ST. Their ST play is a merely a bonus.

I mean, if we are talking Ray Ventrone vs. RB3, you really think Ventrone represents more value in 2008 and beyond?

Actually I am not a Ventrone fan. If it was between Ventrone, Spann, Andrews, etc and a good vet RB than I would agree with you and take the RB.

I am more interested in young LB's and DB's. The defensive coaches are very impressed with class of UDRFA's (on the defensive side), most of which will likely be claimed before making it to the practice squad.

 

[tombonneau]

Actually I am not a Ventrone fan. If it was between Ventrone, Spann, Andrews, etc and a good vet RB than I would agree with you and take the RB.

I am more interested in young LB's and DB's. The defensive coaches are very impressed with class of UDRFA's (on the defensive side), most of which will likely be claimed before making it to the practice squad.

Then we're on the same page. If the coaches really like what they see in someone like Ruud or Guyton or someone that they think could be a spot starter or top backup, I'd say err on the side of youth.

But this part of the roster, we're probably talking the Spanns of the world.

 

[dhamz]

Okay, that's a good point. Dollars count. They're 10.8 over the cap, but there's the top-51 rule and rookies and who knows what. Last year my binkie, Rodney, had to take a pay cut. Maybe it's Kevin, this year, esp. in this RB market. Still, if you're serious about getting to the big game, you can't cut this guy. It's not about sentiment, it's about third-down conversions.

Miguel's page shows the Pats as 10m under the cap.

"According to my figures the Patriots' 2008 cap figure is $110,913,856 with 78 signed or tendered players. The 2008 salary cap is $116,769,000. The Patriots' 2008 adjusted cap is $121,125,078. So I have the Pats under their adjusted cap by about $10.19 million. "

Every year this board has the cut Kevin Faulk and save cap space thread. It hasn't happenned and won't this year. You can't run this offense without a 3rd down back and there is no one else who can fill that role on the roster.

 

[PatsFan37]

Miguel's page shows the Pats as 10m under the cap.

"According to my figures the Patriots' 2008 cap figure is $110,913,856 with 78 signed or tendered players. The 2008 salary cap is $116,769,000. The Patriots' 2008 adjusted cap is $121,125,078. So I have the Pats under their adjusted cap by about $10.19 million. "

Every year this board has the cut Kevin Faulk and save cap space thread. It hasn't happenned and won't this year. You can't run this offense without a 3rd down back and there is no one else who can fill that role on the roster.

I had under in my head and typed over. Ah well.

 

[satz]

Wow i want someone do a number of snaps by a rb and if we do i have a feeling KF is going to have more than morries and close to maroney last year.He was exclusive pass blocking back yet people want to down grade our passing offensive by loose the best pass blocking RB we have.

Last year how many times you saw maroney or morris at the blocking specialists ? i want to bet kf atleast beat them both by 3 to 5 times more.


Heath is a 250 FB and i do not thing a 220 FB is going to do. for example against SD on strong side runs maroney follewed heath who blew merriman and then in few blocks got to the MLB in the second layer. sadly if we was a neal you have said he rocked .

Eckel is such a value pick .... the guy does not fumble now i want people to list the 4th RB who is very good ST and has not fumbled in so many carries .But you know what i remember when patrick cobbs was here and every one was so happy to see this rookie who fumbled a few times in a preseason games..doh . i want a good st playing non fumbling pick for my 4th rb

 

[Metaphors]

Say, Metaphors.
This is a useful series you're building.
I also find your way of thinking quite plausible.
Keep up the good work!

Thanks. Thought it was a nice alternative perspective to the wholistic roster view like the thread from ctpatsfan. Actually trying to tap into the group-think of the board to get the roster battles to watch when camp starts.

Also trying to build a roster with real team chemistry considerations. For example, there is an obvious difference between the gameday active 45 and the final 53. If you are a veteran, you are actually trying to crack the top 45 since those last 8 spots are generally developmental. If you are a veteran and don't contribute on special teams, you are further restricted since about 5 or so of the 45 active roster spots are needed for special teams aces.

I think the series will get real interesting on the defensive ST spots. The offense is fun to talk about but not a lot of mystery there heading into camp.

 

[Metaphors]

Heath is a 250 FB and i do not thing a 220 FB is going to do. for example against SD on strong side runs maroney follewed heath who blew merriman and then in few blocks got to the MLB in the second layer. sadly if we was a neal you have said he rocked .

Eckel is such a value pick .... the guy does not fumble now i want people to list the 4th RB who is very good ST and has not fumbled in so many carries .But you know what i remember when patrick cobbs was here and every one was so happy to see this rookie who fumbled a few times in a preseason games..doh . i want a good st playing non fumbling pick for my 4th rb

Good points, particularly about ball security. You think I should add a camp battle for a 4th RB spot with special teams play being a differentiator? My initial take was that there wasn't enough value from the Maroney/Faulk/Morris leftovers to allocate a roster spot. If folks think the 4th RB spot will get enough action to put the focus on blocking, receiving and ball security (and not focus on special teams play), I could definitely do that.

 

[PatsFan37]

Good points, particularly about ball security. You think I should add a camp battle for a 4th RB spot with special teams play being a differentiator? My initial take was that there wasn't enough value from the Maroney/Faulk/Morris leftovers to allocate a roster spot. If folks think the 4th RB spot will get enough action to put the focus on blocking, receiving and ball security (and not focus on special teams play), I could definitely do that.

This team rarely shows a tandem RB formation but it frequently shows a RB/FB formation. I tried to look up Reiss' blog archives, where he shows how many snaps each player took. He had a season summation sometime in Feb., but I don't know how to find it. I have a feeling Evans was on the field quite a bit.

If I had the time and inclination (I have neither) I'd want to figure Maroney's YPC with and w/o Evans on the field and how many TD attempts Maroney had with and w/o Evans.

If the running game is roughly half the offense in snaps, and the success of the passing game depends at least in part on the validity of the running threat, AND if our #1 RB does significantly better with a FB punching a hole, then I'd say there's no question about it. Hold a roster spot for a FB.

Fire the gun, start the competition. IMHO, having a FB is a lock. Only question is Evans or Eckel or someone else.

Once upon a time, people talked about Watson as a replacement for a FB. I don't hear that any longer.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree with Mike the Brit and wouldn't be shocked if Faulk was cut. You gotta remember the guy is 32 years old. RBs tend to hit the age wall fast and hard. Look how fast Dillon went from having the best per game average rushing in 2004 (assuming he kept his average and played the Steelers game, he would have won the rushing title) to a marginal starter who couldn't say healthy (2005) and was so old that he was so tired he barely played in second halves (2006).

I love Faulk as a player, but his age and cap hit may be too great to overcome. If they don't replace Faulk this year, they will definitely need to in a year or two. If they think Kevin Jones (or someone else) can be that replacement, it may be be better to do it now than later especially if Faulk's cap money can fill another hole.

Like Mike, I am not advocating for Faulk to be cut. But I can see him being a training camp casualty especially if he shows signs of age in training camp.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Faulk is NOT going anywhere. He's never been a speed demon, so no one would even notice if he lost a step. Bottom line, Faulk brings alot to this team. How many times has a game been close, the offense stalled, and Faulk makes a play? He blocks, catches, leads, and no one, I mean no one, runs a better 'shotgun draw' than Faulk. Let us not forget his abilities when they call a screen. I don't care how much they pay him, he is a must have on offense.

 

[satz]

The patriots avged over 18 new players in the 53 for the last 7 years. As we have only have 53 player and no euro exceptions it is going to be hard to develop players for 3 yrs down the road.

you build a team for 1 yr with say 18 new players - means 18 old ones are gone and try to win. you do not carry more players for 3 yrs down the road and lose. you 8 players in the 45 to 53 roster to develop and if one carries dead weight like high draft picks their can be no developmental picks who are good enought and not be picked up from the pratice squad.

 

[dryheat44]

I started coming to this board to vent after Lawyer Milloy got cut when he refused to take a slight pay-cut. While I thought he was over-rated on the field, he was a captain and the leader of the defense. Willie McGinest was cut because he made too much, and he was a big part of back-to-back SB winners at the time.

To say that Kevin Faulk cannot be cut is silly. This thread is all Patriots fans, correct? You've seen how this team operates over the last half-decade, correct? If Belichick feels that the Faulk he is likely to see in 2008 is not worth his salary or not the best use of cap dollars, he will be asked to take a reduction in pay and/or cut uncermoniously.

That being said, I don't think it's going to happen. I don't know who else they would bring in. To bring in Kevin Jones is to spend more at the position, not less. I think we'll see Maroney start to play more in passing situations this year, though, to reduce the wear on Faulk and to keep defenses on their toes.

 

[signbabybrady]

Good points, particularly about ball security. You think I should add a camp battle for a 4th RB spot with special teams play being a differentiator? My initial take was that there wasn't enough value from the Maroney/Faulk/Morris leftovers to allocate a roster spot. If folks think the 4th RB spot will get enough action to put the focus on blocking, receiving and ball security (and not focus on special teams play), I could definitely do that.

I think You should as that is the true battle for this position and IMO one of the bigger camp battles going especially on the offensive side.

You might keep 5 as two of them are key STs contributers.

Further more I think Eckle is pretty close to Evans in all areas except pass catching and he IMO is the better STer of the 2. So even if we keep 4 Eckle could beat out Evans.

 

[WhiZa]

The difference is between KF being cut and Milloy/McGinest/Covlin is the cap room gained by cutting him is about 2 to 3 times less then the other 3. It just happens that he's one of the highest on the team for cap room gained so he has a target on his back. Really the 2mil gained will not get you someone better then Faulk himself.

Recently (past 2-3 years) the Pats have been signing players who they would lose money on if they were cut. I wonder how much of a benefit it is for them to do this. They seem to structure the contract like this for every new significant signing (FA/draft picks). Unlike the signings of 4+ years ago.

 

[tombonneau]

The patriots avged over 18 new players in the 53 for the last 7 years. As we have only have 53 player and no euro exceptions it is going to be hard to develop players for 3 yrs down the road.

you build a team for 1 yr with say 18 new players - means 18 old ones are gone and try to win. you do not carry more players for 3 yrs down the road and lose. you 8 players in the 45 to 53 roster to develop and if one carries dead weight like high draft picks their can be no developmental picks who are good enought and not be picked up from the pratice squad.

This is very well said. When you have a prohibitive favorite like the Patriots, I think you can't afford to sacrifice a guy that has a 85% chance of helping in the current year for a guy a 15% chance to help this year and a 30% chance to help you in three years.

When it comes to bottom of the roster, I say you stock it with Win Now players, and start all over with those guys in 09 if you have to.

 

[satz]

Further more I think Eckle is pretty close to Evans in all areas except pass catching and he IMO is the better STer of the 2. So even if we keep 4 Eckle could beat out Evans.

I disagree here evans came in alot in pass protection when faulk needed a blow when morris was down not maroney .Eckel never let me repeat never lined up at FB .He played the RB towards the end of the game when BB did not want faulk ,maroney and evans in the game.

 

[Metaphors]

I think You should as that is the true battle for this position and IMO one of the bigger camp battles going especially on the offensive side.

Thought about this some more and I just can't bring myself to give FB a true roster spot on the Pats active 45. I will compromise and require that a spot among the special teams guys be someone that can handle FB duties.

 

[signbabybrady]

Thought about this some more and I just can't bring myself to give FB a true roster spot on the Pats active 45. I will compromise and require that a spot among the special teams guys be someone that can handle FB duties.

The FB is always going to be a key ST as IMO they and LBs have the best body type for STs. They are kind of hybrids who need to hit like linemen and run like backs and that goes for both LB and FB

 

[signbabybrady]

I disagree here evans came in alot in pass protection when faulk needed a blow when morris was down not maroney .Eckel never let me repeat never lined up at FB .He played the RB towards the end of the game when BB did not want faulk ,maroney and evans in the game.

I think that was more a product of the way last year went down rather than there true skill level. Keep in mind all I said was that Eckle was real close. and with another training camp with this team ( his last Patriot TC was a few years ago) he may pass him. Eckle was not Patriot property to start the season we picked him up off waivers and Evans was already the Started at FB and as I am saying he is close why would you make the gamble in the middle of the undefeated regular season to see if Eckle could actually be better.

I suggest you guys watch Eckle closely during training camp as he has a huge motor and never quits. He might be able to work his way into the position.