Bye week thoughts...

[aluminum seats]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Same language + different interpretation = new/changed law as applied. Where once "separate but equal" was just dandy, that is now a bad thing. Same Constitutional words, different spin.


Then again, you must already know this, given your commentary on my potential legal capabilities.

Guys, personal spats like this really do clog up the board.

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

O'm sorry at this point you can not compare Chad Jackson with Stallworth.

Stallworth has produced... Jackson has yet to.

DS breaks tackles....CJ hasn't

All I said was that Stallworth and Jackson have similar skill sets. Both are about 6', strong, and fast. Both have (to date) adequate, but not great hands.

Stallworth has more experience and production, but Jackson will be litterally a 2nd year player next season. The jury is still out on him

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Another factor in the run game seems to be that the linemen don't get much push against good defenses.

I think that THAT's my point. At the current time, I'm postulating that the new offensive line blocking system is inhibiting our OLmen from getting a good push on running plays.

I think we will try to keep Gaffney over Donte, if he is cheaper. They are used about the same amount currently.

I don't doubt that Gaffney will be back, but not as "replacement" for Stallworth. If Gaffney winds up as the #2 WR for the Pats it will be because Jackson (who has more talent) proves he cannot do the job.

I have not seen Moss take many plays off considering he is always on the field. Haven't seen him miss many blocks either. Seems like he is playing his ass off!

I

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

1--trading down is a moot point when the economics make the pick undesirable to the entire league.

2--this is nowhere near an apt comparison, as Wilfork has done what few 1st round picks ever do, and that is to be worth more than what his rookie deal paid out. as Wilfork nears free agency, the skewed rookie salaries are creating upheaval across the entire league's salary structure.

Wilfolk was the 21st pick and down there rookie deals are eminently affordable. Just to give you and example of HOW precipitous the money drops. In 2003 the Jets paid DRob MORE money than the Pats ENTIRE draft which included Warren the #13 pick. Thats just 9 slots below DROB.

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

5. As for the draft, if they had to trade down from 2 to 7, I think they could have, even if they just took a 3rd or 4th, well below the trade chart.

I think we all take that trade value chart too seriously. Fair market value is whatever the highest bidder will pay. Besides, the trade value chart for every team in theory should be different.

Hypothetically, say the Pats wanted to trade up in 2004 from 21 to get Vince Wilfork, someone they reportedly had a top ten value on. Wouldn't they be willing to give up more to move up 5 spots than the trade value chart says since they value the player much higher?

At the same time, if the Rams, for example, are at 2, and they value 5 guys on the board the same, wouldn't trading down to 6 for them be ideal? They would take less than the value chart indicates is fair.

What I'm saying is that in TODAY's economic climate that it will be difficult to FIND SOMEONE who would be willing to trade up to the #2 slot. It seems as the person who is trading up is getting less of a value because of the economic concequenses. Not only that, they are EXPECTED to give up much more.

Who wants to be in the situation that the Giants were in 4 years ago. Not only did they have to overpay for an underperforming EManning, they also gave up a ton of draft picks. Its been those picks along with the ones they got in the LT deal a few years before that has made the Chargers what they are.

In every draft there are going to be between 5-8 "sure fire A+ players" at the top of the draft. After that the next 40 players (aproximately) are in the catagory of being eventual starters.

I think the Pats are very comfortable picking at the end of the first round. Picking in the top ten makes them violate a lot of their enonomic policies. Unless there is a guy they love at that spot, I don't seem them staying there. In this deep draft it is likely that they can get a good LB/DB prospect anywhere in the first 30 picks.

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

here is the deal with escalating salaries: players LOVE IT when other guys get huge deals. b/c it just means that the next time their deal comes up, they have a huge deal to negotiate against. if you are worried what Matt Light will think when we sign a rookie T to a huge deal, you're worried about the wrong thing, b/c Light would love it.

Maybe in Baseball, but the first rule in capology is that for every dollar you give one player, that's one dollar LESS for everyone else. So when a team is forced to sign an unproven rookie to a 20-30MM GUARANATEED deal, that's a lot of money that IS NOT available to everyone else.

THAT's the problem. The problem I cited was that if the Pats got Dorsey or Long, at #7 they'd have to give him the kind of contract TO START WITH, that Wilfolk will be looking for in his extention (something in the 20MM guarateed level)

 

[patfanken]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

As usual, enjoy the read patfanken.

The Pats are value-obsessed, is Stallworth more talented than CJ or Gaffney? Sure, but either CJ or Gaffney presents better value as the #3 and or #4 receiver, there's no doubt about it. .

Just to clarify, I think Stallworth is more talented than Gaffney, but I DO NOT think he's more physically talented than Jackson....he is just more experienced. As someone already stated, Jackson is still the youngest player on the Pats right now. Given his injury this year, it is WAY too early to give up on that kind of talent, especailly in a WR.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

I think that THAT's my point. At the current time, I'm postulating that the new offensive line blocking system is inhibiting our OLmen from getting a good push on running plays.



I don't doubt that Gaffney will be back, but not as "replacement" for Stallworth. If Gaffney winds up as the #2 WR for the Pats it will be because Jackson (who has more talent) proves he cannot do the job.

I have not seen Moss take many plays off considering he is always on the field. Haven't seen him miss many blocks either. Seems like he is playing his ass off!

I

Your final sentence got cut off. What were you about to say?

I don't consider Gaffney as a replacement of equal potential as Donte by any stretch. I do think the Pats might go ahead and keep Gaffney if he is cheaper and Donte doesn't want to re-do his contract to their liking. I really think it is going to be a very touchy re-negotiation with Donte, who probably thinks he is being under utilized at this point...

 

[AzPatsFan]

While I agree it will be hard to keep Stallworth, nonetheless I would like y'all to consider this scenario, (which actaully had occurred this year). Next year with Donte Stallworth gone the following happens.

Moss gets a hamstring injury and is unable to play for five games.

Your starting WRs are Gaffney and CJ, with Welker in the slot. How is that better than Caldwell, Gabriel and a Troy Brown when he was two years younger?

I suspect the Reche, Troy and Gabriel combo would actually be more hightly rated. Gabriel was at least a proven NFL reciever, while CJ has not done a thing yet.

 

[Oswlek]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

What I'm saying is that in TODAY's economic climate that it will be difficult to FIND SOMEONE who would be willing to trade up to the #2 slot. It seems as the person who is trading up is getting less of a value because of the economic concequenses. Not only that, they are EXPECTED to give up much more.

Who wants to be in the situation that the Giants were in 4 years ago. Not only did they have to overpay for an underperforming EManning, they also gave up a ton of draft picks. Its been those picks along with the ones they got in the LT deal a few years before that has made the Chargers what they are.

In every draft there are going to be between 5-8 "sure fire A+ players" at the top of the draft. After that the next 40 players (aproximately) are in the catagory of being eventual starters.

I think the Pats are very comfortable picking at the end of the first round. Picking in the top ten makes them violate a lot of their enonomic policies. Unless there is a guy they love at that spot, I don't seem them staying there. In this deep draft it is likely that they can get a good LB/DB prospect anywhere in the first 30 picks.

I disagree with that line of thinking. Teams picking in the top 5 are near-universally crappy teams who need a shot in the arm more than anything. For a team like the Ravens, grabbing a top-tier QB is the ultimate need. For you to dissuade them from grabbing whomever, you need to have a good deal.

By comparison, NE is coming from the opposite side. They are likely to take the position that the player would have to be a surefire bluechip prospect to not move down. Had NE been sitting at #2, they would likely have at least 5 offers from other teams, they just wouldn't have been "fair" value per the draft chart. But NE wouldn't feel the pressure to grab the next big thing so they would be fine with "losing" on that trade.

The moving down is not the issue and NE will have plenty of chances if they truly feel that no rookie is worth the $15mm or so guaranteed money.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I concur with those who say that Clock management is a coaching tiebreaker that the Great Coaching of the the Patriots exploit.
Why make it easier for the clods?

Yes, I concur that the Defense should have the option of taking the play or the movement penalty. Let the plays continue.

The whole issue of PI and chuck rules needs to be revisited. BB had to modify what his ideal team looks like just to match the damn rules. You need both a grievous and incidental PI calls, just like face masking. Only the grievous PI merits a spot foul and FD. Th incidental PI is ten yards.

There should be an interpretation of Chucking that it must be intentional and play affecting. NO incidental calls allowed. And distance but no automatic FD.

This would hurt the pass-happy teams constructed for these warped rules, (The Clots and Patriots), but return the NFL to sound football.

 

[AzPatsFan]

There is another observation about PI. Merely changing the penalty awarded would remove some sting. No penalty should virtually award points.

The penalty even in the endzone for PI should not be the ball placed on the one yard line. It should be on the five yard line, or half the distance to the Goal both with a FD. A sixty yard pass interferred within the endzone results in first and goal on the five yard line. A pass interference in the endzone with the LOS the four, results in a first and goal from the two...

That simple change woudl make Defense possible and alter the devatating aspects of the PI penalty...