Bye week thoughts...

[jczxohn1]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

1. Glad you brought this up. From what I've seen of Denver's zone blocking ours is unrecognizable to my untutored eye. It looks more like a rugby scrum, with Maroney making yards only if he manages to get in the middle. More often he gets cut down by someone looping around the backside or cutting through the hole left by a pulling guard. Not sure that's all his fault. Lately, if there's a clear hole, he hits it.
2. Big 10-4 on this one too. Stallworth won't stay for the same reason Chad JOhnson won't come here. Chad JAckson. Going to be a little pain getting there, but our CJ is going to be like Andrew Cromartie on offense, IMO. IIRC, he's still the youngest guy on the team.
3. An amazing athelete. Going back to an old thread about comparing players to dog breeds ( off-season insanity) he's definitely a greyhound. Love how he pulled away from the CB after catching #50.
4.a. Sorry, but no. We're the best at clock management. It would level the playing field on one of the best advantages we have.
b. No again. There'd be a pig pile on every tackle. Much more chance of injury.
c. BB is right. Put a camera on each end of the goal line. Current practice is devoted to keeping the game in the hands of the officials rather than the players.
d.i. So if the ball is uncatchable, the DB can mug the receiver?
ii. OK if the call is reviewable.
e. Legalize hand-fighting? Our receiving corps won't be helped by this change. IMO, we're becoming, WR-wise, more like the Colts and they're becoming more like we used to be. BB adjusts to play within the rules. Our new field is built for speed as is our WR corps.
f. meh
5. Maualaga at #7. An all Samoan MLB corps by '09 ----:woohoo:

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

I don't think it matters what scheme we run block with as long as we push guys out of the way and don't just 'scrum' up the line of scrimmage.

I just don't see any push out of our line against some defenses.

 

[Frezo]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Chad Jackson...I know he's a popular guy around here, but he hasn't shown me very much. I see speed. Bethel Johnson had speed. If DS were to go on IR tomorrow, would CJ take his place at #2? Not a chance. If Stallworth and Brown don't come back next year, CJ would probably be #4 behind Moss, Welker, and Gaffney and he may even have to battle Bam for that spot. I haven't seen enough to judge his hands, route running, playbook comprehension and blocking. Maybe you guys are right, but I'd like to see the hard evidence.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

for the love of god people stop saying this. ever heard of trading down?

Yes, I have. Its a hard thing to do if people don't have what you are looking for. And considering that only 1 team has 2 1st round picks this year (the Pats would have been the 2nd), its hard for there to be that justification. The Pats will still probably trade down because the value will be there.

the same way you explained it to veterans when Wilfork signed his rookie deal, which he is still on?

I agree with you here, to a point. Unfortunately, the use of Wilfork as an example is poor since Wilfork's deal wasn't that ground-breaking and he actually made less than most of the other D-linemen on the team other than Jarvis Green.

Seymour was the last top 10 pick the Pats drafted. And the Pats were rebuilding that year. So it wasn't hard to justify because Seymour came in and made an impact immediately.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Chad Jackson...I know he's a popular guy around here, but he hasn't shown me very much. I see speed. Bethel Johnson had speed. If DS were to go on IR tomorrow, would CJ take his place at #2? Not a chance. If Stallworth and Brown don't come back next year, CJ would probably be #4 behind Moss, Welker, and Gaffney and he may even have to battle Bam for that spot. I haven't seen enough to judge his hands, route running, playbook comprehension and blocking. Maybe you guys are right, but I'd like to see the hard evidence.

A few things.
1) Stallworth isn't the #2 right now. Welker is. With Gaffney the #3. Stallworth the #4.
2) The idea of Jackson battling Childress for the number 4 spot is laughable. Honestly. Childress is like #7 if he's lucky. While Jackson would be the "#4" I don't think it will take him long to surpass Gaffney, if Gaffney returns.
3) Jackson blocked very well last year. Both in the running game and on special teams. In fact, that is where he was primarily used.

All that being said, Jackson is no lock. But he's a notoriously slow starter. He took more than one year at both the High School and College levels to get acclimated and start producing. The injury to start the season set him back. The injury at the end of the season set him back further. He won't be fully healthy until training camp, more than likely. Next year will be his third and he will have to show something. It remains to be seen if he does.

That being said, the potential is there for him to be Donte Stallworth like. and that potential, as well as the savings of nearly 6 million on the cap, will probably be enough for the Pats to bid adieu to Stallworth.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

re: full time officials. it just doesn't make logistic sense.

MLB season is 162 games, NBA and NHL are about 80, NFL is 16. those other leagues need full time guys. lots of NFl refs are successfull lawyers, entreprenuers, etc, who wouldnt want to commit to a full time NFL job, and the league wouldnt want to pay a 12 month salary for 1 month of work

Ok. Nothing you said has anything to do with logistics. Logic, maybe, but not logistics.

One of the reasons people talk about "full time" referees is because these weekend warriors tend to have very little accountability. Why wouldn't the league want to commit full time pay to the referees when they have players committing that sort of time to play the game?

In all honesty, full time officials who are accountable for their actions would be a big improvement. Guys who are in shape, can keep up with what's going on during the game, and who have an idea of the rules would be very helpful.

And if you are wondering what I mean regarding the rules, I am talking about Pass Interference, in particular. Such as the official that called FACEGUARDING on Hobbs last year when Faceguarding hasn't been a penalty in over a decade. And, yes, it was the same referee who missed the mauling that Kelvin Hayden gave to Reche Caldwell in the endzone.

As someone else mentioned, how can you expect the players to not get frustrated when the referees don't even know the rule.

The number of bad calls over the past 4 years has been outrageous. Particularly in the play-offs. What was worse was the farce of SB XL. The Seahawks got screwed HARD on several plays.

In all honesty, players and owners should DEMAND full time referees to prevent farces like SB XL from happening again.

 

[Frezo]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

A few things.
1) Stallworth isn't the #2 right now. Welker is. With Gaffney the #3. Stallworth the #4.
2) The idea of Jackson battling Childress for the number 4 spot is laughable. Honestly. Childress is like #7 if he's lucky. While Jackson would be the "#4" I don't think it will take him long to surpass Gaffney, if Gaffney returns.
3) Jackson blocked very well last year. Both in the running game and on special teams. In fact, that is where he was primarily used.

All that being said, Jackson is no lock. But he's a notoriously slow starter. He took more than one year at both the High School and College levels to get acclimated and start producing. The injury to start the season set him back. The injury at the end of the season set him back further. He won't be fully healthy until training camp, more than likely. Next year will be his third and he will have to show something. It remains to be seen if he does.

That being said, the potential is there for him to be Donte Stallworth like. and that potential, as well as the savings of nearly 6 million on the cap, will probably be enough for the Pats to bid adieu to Stallworth.

That what I wanted to hear and what I see, potential. He's not a lock and for me it would be surprising if next season he became as good as Stallworth has been this year. He still has a ways to go and this season is in the books. Childress is also the RB on the practice squad so it would follow suit that his YAC could improve. Yeah he'd probably have trouble beating out CJ, but he's a fiesty dude.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

huh? what exception?

the fact is that most of these guys have well paying jobs - the others are generally retired, and ref as a part time gig.

So on the referee side you have guys with lucrative careers OR who dont want full time jobs.

on the NFL side you have a job that requires 2 or 3 days work maybe 20 times a year, but you would be forced to pay them a full time salary.

how would you correct the problem, from either end?

Sorry, but the referees should be working more than 2-3 days a week. Its bad when some of them don't know the rules.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Sorry, but the referees should be working more than 2-3 days a week. Its bad when some of them don't know the rules.

You don't need to work full time to learn a rule book.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

You don't need to work full time to learn a rule book.

No, but they need to work full time, like the players do, to be in shape and be able to review tape of games to see what they miss and should be looking for.

Learning from their mistakes. There are plenty of jobs that pay full time, but are only 4 days a week now. I'd honestly have no problem with them doing that. I honestly feel its needed in the NFL. Or, at the very least, a competency test to make sure all the head officials know the rules and are willing to over-rule a clearly incorrect call like an official calling faceguarding.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

No, but they need to work full time, like the players do, to be in shape and be able to review tape of games to see what they miss and should be looking for.

Learning from their mistakes. There are plenty of jobs that pay full time, but are only 4 days a week now. I'd honestly have no problem with them doing that. I honestly feel its needed in the NFL. Or, at the very least, a competency test to make sure all the head officials know the rules and are willing to over-rule a clearly incorrect call like an official calling faceguarding.

The NFL is a few months a year, 1 day a week, gig, when you break it down to the basics. The officials get the vast majority of the calls correct. What's needed, frankly, is for rules to be enforced uniformly. That's it. It's no coincidence that the calls people complain about most are the subjective calls like holding and pass interference. That would require a seminar, not a full-time position.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

The NFL is a few months a year, 1 day a week, gig, when you break it down to the basics. The officials get the vast majority of the calls correct. What's needed, frankly, is for rules to be enforced uniformly. That's it. It's no coincidence that the calls people complain about most are the subjective calls like holding and pass interference. That would require a seminar, not a full-time position.

If all it took was a seminar, I'd agree with you, but it clearly will take more than that. The refs have a seminar each year to update themselves on the rules and such. And, in all honesty, nothing has gotten better.

And, I'm sorry, but the refs could work 4 days a week from July through the middle of February and its more than 6 months.

I notice you've completed ignored the statements about their physical fitness. Ed Hochuli and Mike Carey excluded, the officials aren't exactly in great shape.

And they could, and should, spend time on self evaluation and evaluating their fellow refs to see where they made mistakes so they can correct them. That takes actual film review of plays and calls.

All you've done, Deus, is galvinize my stance for me.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

If all it took was a seminar, I'd agree with you, but it clearly will take more than that. The refs have a seminar each year to update themselves on the rules and such. And, in all honesty, nothing has gotten better.

And, I'm sorry, but the refs could work 4 days a week from July through the middle of February and its more than 6 months.

I notice you've completed ignored the statements about their physical fitness. Ed Hochuli and Mike Carey excluded, the officials aren't exactly in great shape.

And they could, and should, spend time on self evaluation and evaluating their fellow refs to see where they made mistakes so they can correct them. That takes actual film review of plays and calls.

All you've done, Deus, is galvinize my stance for me.

1.) It's the League's job to insist upon a consistent standard for P.I., holding, etc... just as it's the league's job (NBA) to insist on those games being called the same with traveling, charging/blocking and the like. Those full time officials are no more impervious to error than the NFL officials are.

2.) You don't need to be employed full time to be in shape.

 

[makewayhomer]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Yes, I have. Its a hard thing to do if people don't have what you are looking for. And considering that only 1 team has 2 1st round picks this year (the Pats would have been the 2nd), its hard for there to be that justification. The Pats will still probably trade down because the value will be there.

the point is this: high picks are always always always worth more than lower picks. when was the last time you heard of a team trading picks to move DOWN? it has never happened. but trading UP still happens. ergo, high picks are worth more

I agree with you here, to a point. Unfortunately, the use of Wilfork as an example is poor since Wilfork's deal wasn't that ground-breaking and he actually made less than most of the other D-linemen on the team other than Jarvis Green.

Seymour was the last top 10 pick the Pats drafted. And the Pats were rebuilding that year. So it wasn't hard to justify because Seymour came in and made an impact immediately.

here is the deal with escalating salaries: players LOVE IT when other guys get huge deals. b/c it just means that the next time their deal comes up, they have a huge deal to negotiate against. if you are worried what Matt Light will think when we sign a rookie T to a huge deal, you're worried about the wrong thing, b/c Light would love it.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

1.) It's the League's job to insist upon a consistent standard for P.I., holding, etc... just as it's the league's job (NBA) to insist on those games being called the same with traveling, charging/blocking and the like. Those full time officials are no more impervious to error than the NFL officials are.

And the league isn't doing that. You keep making my point for me.

The league isn't making sure that PI and Holding are called the same. And one of the problems is that, because there is such a small sample size (256 games in total), the errors are exacerbated.

2.) You don't need to be employed full time to be in shape.

If part of the job is to be able to do certain physical activities, then the league should provide the means for the officials to meet those requirements. I mean, look at the players. Their jobs are year round now. Keeping in shape. Watching video. trying to make improvements to their game. It wasn't always like that. It used to be that once the season ended, you didn't see the guys until the start of training camp. Why should we expect less from officials, who are just as important to the game as the players?

Deus - You have yet to offer up any good argument as to why the league shouldn't employ full time officials.

So far you've said:
1) But they already have successful jobs (you don't think that being a lawyer or successful CEO might cut into their prep time?)
2) A seminar will fix things (clearly this isn't true because it hasn't yet)
3) The officials should be responsible for being in shape (just like the players should be, yet the teams provide them with nutritionists and strength and conditioning coaches)

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

the point is this: high picks are always always always worth more than lower picks. when was the last time you heard of a team trading picks to move DOWN? it has never happened. but trading UP still happens. ergo, high picks are worth more

Do you enjoy talking for the sake of talking? Because what you said has nothing to do with the fact that its been getting harder for teams to trade DOWN because of the financial implications of the upper draft picks.

here is the deal with escalating salaries: players LOVE IT when other guys get huge deals. b/c it just means that the next time their deal comes up, they have a huge deal to negotiate against. if you are worried what Matt Light will think when we sign a rookie T to a huge deal, you're worried about the wrong thing, b/c Light would love it.

What fantasty world do you live in? No one who is already employed likes it when the person hired after him is hired for more money. NO ONE. If you do, you need your head examined.

Matt Light wouldn't love it if a rookie LT who'd proven nothing got hired at a salary of more than 5 million a year. Especially when Light still has 2 years on his contract. And, more than likely, he WON'T get 5 million a year on his next contract because of the age he will be when his contract is up.

The veteran players have been grumbling more and more about the ridiculous contracts that top 5 draft picks have been getting. And, I'm sure its going to be a sticking point in the next CBA negotiations because teams are starting to grumble about it. Particularly when they don't see a good return on their investment.

 

[makewayhomer]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Do you enjoy talking for the sake of talking? Because what you said has nothing to do with the fact that its been getting harder for teams to trade DOWN because of the financial implications of the upper draft picks.

the original point I disagreed with was the "we're lucky we got the #7 pick instead of an even higher one". has it been getting harder to trade down? sure. but it's still possible. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with?

What fantasty world do you live in? No one who is already employed likes it when the person hired after him is hired for more money. NO ONE. If you do, you need your head examined.

Matt Light wouldn't love it if a rookie LT who'd proven nothing got hired at a salary of more than 5 million a year. Especially when Light still has 2 years on his contract. And, more than likely, he WON'T get 5 million a year on his next contract because of the age he will be when his contract is up.

The veteran players have been grumbling more and more about the ridiculous contracts that top 5 draft picks have been getting. And, I'm sure its going to be a sticking point in the next CBA negotiations because teams are starting to grumble about it. Particularly when they don't see a good return on their investment.

you're not a professional athlete, where the salaries keep going up, up, up, far faster than inflation. would I like it if the guy hired after me got the same job for more money? no. but the rules pro athletes live by are different.

why do you think the MLB players association was so pissed this offseason wrt to the Arod negotiations? it was bc they thought the owners were conspiring to keep his salary down. the other players wanted him to get paid as much as possible, b/c it raises the comps for everyone else. the next time a stud 3b comes up, they get to compare themselves to a $200m deal, not a $150m deal or whatever, and this is to their advantage.

now, the NFL is a bit more complicated b/c of the salary cap, but this just keeps going up, up, up as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

And the league isn't doing that. You keep making my point for me.

The league isn't making sure that PI and Holding are called the same. And one of the problems is that, because there is such a small sample size (256 games in total), the errors are exacerbated.

This has nothing to do with part time versus full time. Nothing at all. Baseball and Basketball both have interpretive calls and the same problems are there. In baseball, the strike zone interpretations got to be so varied that the league went to grading it out by use of a camera system to bring all the calls more closely into alignment.

If part of the job is to be able to do certain physical activities, then the league should provide the means for the officials to meet those requirements. I mean, look at the players. Their jobs are year round now. Keeping in shape. Watching video. trying to make improvements to their game. It wasn't always like that. It used to be that once the season ended, you didn't see the guys until the start of training camp. Why should we expect less from officials, who are just as important to the game as the players?

1.) Not all football players are in shape. Not by a long shot.

2.) If you work in a job that requires fitness, you must keep fit. It's not the job's responsibility to keep you away from the cookie jar.

Deus - You have yet to offer up any good argument as to why the league shouldn't employ full time officials.

So far you've said:
1) But they already have successful jobs (you don't think that being a lawyer or successful CEO might cut into their prep time?)
2) A seminar will fix things (clearly this isn't true because it hasn't yet)
3) The officials should be responsible for being in shape (just like the players should be, yet the teams provide them with nutritionists and strength and conditioning coaches)

My arguments have been fine and perfectly valid. You may choose to argue against them, but that doesn't make them any less 'good'. The league didn't need to go to full time officials to implement Polian's "point of emphasis" regarding contact, after all.

As I noted, the NBA has full time officials and major problems with officiating. Baseball used to have a huge and problematic disparity with the strike zone until the Commissioner's office forced change there, and that was despite having an entire officiating system in place with both the minor and major leagues. Expecting perfection from humans is idiotic. Expecting some relatively consistent interpretations of subjective calls is not, and it doesn't require full time officials to implement it.

 

[crafty35a]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

Edit: I would make PI a 15-yard penalty. I know everyone says that you would just tackle receivers when you get beat on a deep pass, but this NEVER happens in college under the 15 yard PI rule.

Fully agree with you here - I don't know why this isn't mentioned more often. Not to mention that if you get beat badly on a deep pass, you're generally not in position to tackle the receiver, either before or after he catches the ball.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Bye week thoughts....

As usual, enjoy the read patfanken.

As a Chad Jackson supporter all this time, I think it's a no-brainer you release Stallworth, particularly with Gaffney emerging as a #3 option. The Pats are value-obsessed, is Stallworth more talented than CJ or Gaffney? Sure, but either CJ or Gaffney presents better value as the #3 and or #4 receiver, there's no doubt about it.

There's too many other needs to address to pay Stallworth approx. 6 mill a year to be a #3 guy, as solid as he's been for us. Ultimately, Chad Jackson might end up being Stallworth with better hands.