Best of all time debate

[Fencer]

I thought you were one of those guys that claimed "clutch" doesn't exist and is only a product of sabre-mathematics?

Let's review that.

1. Choking exists.
2. Some of the anecdotal evidence for clutchness -- e.g., Vinateri bragging endlessly about how clutch he is -- is actually descriptions of not-choking.
3. There are guys who make extra physical effort on big plays they can't sustain through the whole game. I suspect McGinest of being one of those. That's kind of like some distance runners finishing with a strong "kick" and some not having as much of one.
4. There are guys who claim to just focus better in the clutch. I don't know whether they're describing themselves accurately in that way or not. Brady makes such claims.
5. There are deceptive tactics (pass-rush moves, off-speed pitches, etc.) one can inherently use only once in a while, and might save for the clutch.

And so on.

Statistics cast doubt on many claims of clutchness, but I don't think they're all invaldated.

 

[solman]

1. If you insist on comparing position by position, then teams of the past simply lose.

Today's players are bigger, faster, stronger and more skilled than players of the past. Since 1985, the average offensive lineman has added over 35 pounds.

By this metric, the best team of the current decade is almost certainly the best team ever to play the game.

2. A great many of the geezers who saw Graham and Montana play have said that Brady is playing better. Its just plain wrong to suggest that they unanimously feel otherwise.

 

[mgteich]

One way yo compare the 2007 patriots with the 1985 bears is to compare post-season point differential. How dominant were the teams when it counted?

The Colts were actually better than us in '05 (I'm sure you actually mean the '04 season)?!? How on earth did you figure that? Great offense, sucky defense? They were not.

The '85 Bears had a great defense but a nothing-special offense. The '07 Pats have a great offense and a reasonably decent defense. So how do you weight this? With the point differential. The Patiotrs threaten to break the PD record (the average-per-game thereof), which means they would technically have had the greatest combined offense/defense in NFL history.

Remember, this is a team game. They were getting out-horsed by Baltimore for good stretches in the last game, but managed to pull it together as a team to win the game.

And win they did. When most other great teams have had their seasonal lulls, that's where they end up losing one or two games but still finishing 13-3, 14-2 or 15-1. But the Pats have been still winning during their lull. To me, at this point of the season, they have the greatest team ever.

 

[mgteich]

Most seem to think that we are the best even if we go 19-0, regardless of margin in the remaining games, and that we might not be had the we lose the ravens game.

 

[makewayhomer]

Most seem to think that we are the best error if we go 19-0, regardless of margin in the remaining games, and that we might not be had the we lose the ravens game.

which is why looking ONLY at W/L. is dumb. imagine a scenario where we run the table, by a combined 7 points.

we are the best team ever at 19-0, but had Rex Ryan not called that TO, we wouldn't be? does that make any sense?

 

[fair catch fryar]

Let's review that.

1. Choking exists.
2. Some of the anecdotal evidence for clutchness -- e.g., Vinateri bragging endlessly about how clutch he is -- is actually descriptions of not-choking.
3. There are guys who make extra physical effort on big plays they can't sustain through the whole game. I suspect McGinest of being one of those. That's kind of like some distance runners finishing with a strong "kick" and some not having as much of one.
4. There are guys who claim to just focus better in the clutch. I don't know whether they're describing themselves accurately in that way or not. Brady makes such claims.
5. There are deceptive tactics (pass-rush moves, off-speed pitches, etc.) one can inherently use only once in a while, and might save for the clutch.

And so on.

Statistics cast doubt on many claims of clutchness, but I don't think they're all invaldated.

Thanks for sharing your opinion .

 

[mgteich]

What makes sense to me is that we are arguably the #1 dysnasty of all team if we win the SB this year. Four SB's in a salary cap and free agency is truly awesome. We have three SB's with three years left on the Belichick decade.

As far as being the best single season team, it will be difficult for us to compare with the 1985 bears. One indicator will be playoff point differential. These last four games matter little.

which is why looking ONLY at W/L. is dumb. imagine a scenario where we run the table, by a combined 7 points.

we are the best team ever at 19-0, but had Rex Ryan not called that TO, we wouldn't be? does that make any sense?

 

[scout]

What makes sense to me is that we are arguably the #1 dysnasty of all team if we win the SB this year. Four SB's in a salary cap and free agency is truly awesome. We have three SB's with three years left on the Belichick decade.

As far as being the best single season team, it will be difficult for us to compare with the 1985 bears. One indicator will be playoff point differential. These last four games matter little.

I don't think thats a good way to judge the best team. By saying that, then your saying the Dallas Cowboys were a better team then the any of the Patriot teams and I don't think they are even in the discussion.

 

[TruthSeeker]

...they will be the greatest if they end the season 19-0. If you disagree, please enter the team in which is better.

This, indeed, is the point. Assuming the Patriots manage to make it to 19-0, please compare them with one or more specific teams if you want to claim another team is the GOAT.

This isn't fantasy football. Others have already pointed out that the other teams typically mentioned as best ever all have weaknesses as well as strengths. Simply because the Patriots have weaknesses as well as strengths certainly doesn't disqualify them...

 

[TruthSeeker]

eh, the Ravens played better than we did on Monday. if Rex Ryan doesn't call that dumb TO, we lose.

Didn't you hear Tom Brady say that he gave up on the play when he heard the whistle and that he would have made the 1st down otherwise?

We'll never know, will we. But just be aware that it's not quite as obvious clear as you believe it is.

 

[TIMEsteelersfan]

Didn't you hear Tom Brady say that he gave up on the play when he heard the whistle and that he would have made the 1st down otherwise?

We'll never know, will we. But just be aware that it's not quite as obvious clear as you believe it is.

Yes we do know, everybody already does. I've seen the interview about 10 times on ESPN, he was clearly joking. The media laughed when he said it, and he couldn't keep a straight face so he cracked a laugh. He was stuffed and he knows it, so does everybody else. It's a moot point though, you won and that's all that matters.

 

[Fantasic4x50x54x59x55]

The argument I see here is that, in order to be considered the greatest of all time...you would have to dominate every phase of the game statistically,physically and mentally--which is impossible..if your going to be the best passing offense your running will suffer, if your defense is a bend not break D, your yds given up will suffer..

there are more factors/variables when your going to debate this.. for instance..
number of games in a season?
Quality of Players in the league at a certain time?
Managing a Cap?

I am not going to argue RIGHT NOW as to if the Pats are the best team ever.. The TRUE test or measurement scale you can put this up against the the test of time. Will a team(s) ever duplicate the run? Will as many teams pull out clutch victories year in and year out like this team does? Will we ever see a 3rd string QB come in and take over the league?


are the patriots the best NFL Franchise/Team EVER? only time can tell..but if you say this isnt something special your in denail in a steelers/jets/colts uniform

 

[FrontSeven]

First of all, I respect the Pats and think they are clearly the best team in the league this year, however even if they go 19-0, one cannot objectively judge their team as the best of all time or even really close to that.

Do you really care? I mean haven't you argued whether Mohamed Ali could have whipped Rocky Marciano yet? Whenever you get into these debates that span generations and eras it becomes literally impossible to settle on a clear cut choice.

I'm sorry - we'll never know. All I know is that coach Ditka has said that the Pats offense would have shredded his defense, so you can do the math from there.

 

[Brady_12]

All I know is that coach Ditka has said that the Pats offense would have shredded his defense, so you can do the math from there.

He said that? Wow, that is saying something. I've never seen a D comparable to the '85 Bears.

 

[Michael]

:blahblah:

Get some sleep.

 

[PatriotsReign]

eh, the Ravens played better than we did on Monday. if Rex Ryan doesn't call that dumb TO, we lose.

this is why Win/Loss record isn't always the best predictor of success going forward. sometimes a bad team team can luckily win a bunch of games - ie Detroit who started out 6-2 - but most people could tell you that they're weren't nearly as good as 6-2 teams usually are. the record is now a better reflection of their true quality, but this wasn't true a month ago.

it's been proven in baseball than Run Differential is a better predictor of future success than current W/L record. in football it's probably similar.

wrt to this conversation, it's why most people think the 85 Bears and 89 Niners are better than the 72 Dolphins

And it's also why the Patriots are better than all 3 of those teams! I don't get it, what's your point? At this moment, the Patriots have the greatest point differential in NFL history. Therefor, it doesn't matter that the Ravens came close to outplaying us, does it?

 

[PatriotsReign]

This, indeed, is the point. Assuming the Patriots manage to make it to 19-0, please compare them with one or more specific teams if you want to claim another team is the GOAT.

This isn't fantasy football. Others have already pointed out that the other teams typically mentioned as best ever all have weaknesses as well as strengths. Simply because the Patriots have weaknesses as well as strengths certainly doesn't disqualify them...

The salary cap is the single biggest factor that gives the Patriots MEGA bonus points if they accomplish an undefeated season. Look, even if the greatest team ever was based purely upon record (which thankfully, it's not), the '72 Dolphins would be the best team ever. Even if they had the most difficult schedule in NFL history, the Patriots would still easily get the nod as the greatest team ever.

Now, if we are to judge by a combined record/point differential, the Patriots MUST get bonus points when compared to any team prior to the implimentation of the salary cap...there is no other way...the playing field must be level.

Therefor, what the Patriots have accomplished to date, is far more impressive than the '85 Bears or any pre-cap 49's team. This really can't be debated.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

The salary cap is the single biggest factor that gives the Patriots MEGA bonus points if they accomplish an undefeated season. Look, even if the greatest team ever was based purely upon record (which thankfully, it's not), the '72 Dolphins would be the best team ever. Even if they had the most difficult schedule in NFL history, the Patriots would still easily get the nod as the greatest team ever.

Now, if we are to judge by a combined record/point differential, the Patriots MUST get bonus points when compared to any team prior to the implimentation of the salary cap...there is no other way...the playing field must be level.

Therefor, what the Patriots have accomplished to date, is far more impressive than the '85 Bears or any pre-cap 49's team. This really can't be debated.

I actually don't buy the salary cap issue, because it's been offset by free agency. You might lose a guy, but you can restock via FA. It does provide a more level playing field, which makes things theoretically more competitive. But we have more bad teams now than ever before it seems.

GOAT of all time is really 2 questions: greatest for one season, and greatest dynasty over, say, a 10 year period.

NE has the oppportunity to be #1 in both ways:

- by going 19-0 this year, which has never been done before and which by definition means the greatest season of all time. And it's not like NE has not faced good teams. If they get all the way there, they'll have beaten an 17-2 team twice (Dallas), a 15-3 team (Indy), pretty much all the rest of the iron of the league (Chargers, Steelers), and a couple of other teams that were better than their record (Ravens, Eagles). Also note that Dallas would be undefeated were it not for NE, and Indy would only have 1 loss.

- winning this SB means 4 in 7 years. Another one within the next 2 years would mean 5 in 9 years, which by any measure is the greatest most dominant dynasty of all time.

The Pats don't look like the 85 Bears or the 70s Steelers. They just win more.

 

[PatriotsReign]

I actually don't buy the salary cap issue, because it's been offset by free agency. You might lose a guy, but you can restock via FA. It does provide a more level playing field, which makes things theoretically more competitive. But we have more bad teams now than ever before it seems.

GOAT of all time is really 2 questions: greatest for one season, and greatest dynasty over, say, a 10 year period.

NE has the oppportunity to be #1 in both ways:

- by going 19-0 this year, which has never been done before and which by definition means the greatest season of all time. And it's not like NE has not faced good teams. If they get all the way there, they'll have beaten an 17-2 team twice (Dallas), a 15-3 team (Indy), pretty much all the rest of the iron of the league (Chargers, Steelers), and a couple of other teams that were better than their record (Ravens, Eagles). Also note that Dallas would be undefeated were it not for NE, and Indy would only have 1 loss.

- winning this SB means 4 in 7 years. Another one within the next 2 years would mean 5 in 9 years, which by any measure is the greatest most dominant dynasty of all time.

The Pats don't look like the 85 Bears or the 70s Steelers. They just win more.

You made some excellent points. I do feel the salary cap more than off-sets the FA issue since teams can't stack themselve with stars and if they want to sign one, they "usually" need to let someone go. Obviously the Patriots are somewhat of an exception to this rule due to the "I want a ring" desire from many veteran FA's.

My feeling is, if all things appear equal in a comparison between pre & post salary cap teams, the post-cap team must always get the nod.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

You made some excellent points. I do feel the salary cap more than off-sets the FA issue since teams can't stack themselve with stars and if they want to sign one, they "usually" need to let someone go. Obviously the Patriots are somewhat of an exception to this rule due to the "I want a ring" desire from many veteran FA's.

My feeling is, if all things appear equal in a comparison between pre & post salary cap teams, the post-cap team must always get the nod.

Perhaps, but regardless, if NE runs the table to 19-0, then we don't need to qualify this team as the best of "the cap era". They will have proved themselves the greatest of any era, especially if they can add more more Lombardi in the next couple-three years.