all 22 film shows Brady is not utilizing all of his weapons

[Deus Irae]

*Sigh*

Didn't this thread include your suggestion that the offense needs to improve?

Even when someone agrees with you, you seem to feel a need to pick a fight!

Seriously, is there something wrong with you?

And by the way - your stats actually partially make my point, which went went beyond cherry picking Super Bowl stats (though your stats do illustrate how heavily Welker oriented the 2007 SB was)

As I'm sure you know (and ignored) my point was that the Patriots had developed a pretty diverse array of pass options in 2003/2004 - and much less so in the 2007 season which saw over 50% of the receptions go to Welker and Moss.

And when push came to shove, Defenses were, shall we say, less than surprised when so many of those Super Bowl passes - including those "must catch" plays - went to Welker (and we all know the end result)

You made bad claims. Don't try turning that around on me. And my stats don't make your point, at all. You'll continue to pretend otherwise, of course, but the data is right there.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't want to spoil the surprise for you, but since you are so "stat" oriented why don't you look up the offensive stats from 2003, 2004 and 2007 and see what percentage of receptions were made by our top two receivers

I'll give you a hint. In two out of those three seasons the top two receivers accounted for about 1/3rd of all receptions (meaning 2/3rd of the time the ball went elsewhere)

In one of those seasons the top two receivers accounted for over 50% of all receptions.

That's a significant difference. Care to guess which one of those three seasons we failed to win the Super Bowl?

And do you think Defensive Coordinators wouldn't have made note of those stats and adapted?

Or let me ask another way. Do you think there may have been a reason why Welker had a 77% pass completion rate during the regular season but only HALF as much in the Super Bowl at 38%? (as shown by YOUR OWN stats?)

Unless you can explain how targeting Welker more in the regular season led to all the injuries leading up to, and during, the 2007 SB, your argument will continue to be completely without merit.

Your argument is a steaming pile. It's always going to be a steaming pile, because it ignores the reality of the SB games themselves. I don't know how else to put it without getting into words that will get me in trouble.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You made bad claims. Don't try turning that around on me. And my stats don't make your point, at all. You'll continue to pretend otherwise, of course, but the data is right there.

Your stats show that Welker was the primary target (11 of 29) in the Super Bowl where he had a 38% completion rate

During the regular season Welker was targeted only 25% of the time and had a completion rate of 77%

That 25% also has to be taken in the context of a season in which the offense evolved to be HEAVILY focused on Welker and Moss.

You're telling me you REALLY don't think the Giants Defensive Coordinators were expecting a heavily Welker oriented offense and that had NOTHING to do with his having a completion rate HALF as high as the regular season????

These are YOUR stats. Don't argue with me about them. Feel free to argue with yourself. We'll just sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy the show

 

[Brady6]

It's not meritless at all. Common sense should tell you that if Brady hadn't hit five different receivers in the Miami game that Edelman and/or Gronk would have gotten even more targets. This actually should be very easy for you to understand.

Common sense tells me that if Edelman had 1 less target in the first half of the Dolphins game than he has in the other 6 quarters this season combined what you are saying does not align with reality whatsoever. Edelman is receiving 19.2% of Brady’s snaps. That is not that high at all, if you want to see high look at the 40% Jordy Nelson for getting in Green Bay. Brady hitting 5 different receivers does not sway the percentages that much.

You're stretching here. Edelman's stats look like that because he's being thrust into a role. Last season it was because he was the only guy with experience in the system in that WR corps. This year it's for a multitude of reasons. But the bottom line is that he's not a #1 wideout in this league. Compared to guys like Jones or A.J. Green or Calvin Johnson (which is who you would be comparing him to if you call him a #1 wideout), his route tree is rather limited. Edelman works best as a WR2/3. Dobson has potential to be a #1 wideout. It will be interesting to see if he develops into that once he gets his sea legs under him.

You apparently only view 6”2+ X-WR as #1.

 

[JMC00]

Brady "locking in" on Edelman has Edelman on pace for

96 Rec
1400 yards
14.7 AVG
8 TD
64 FD

But who wants that kind of production out of the #1 WR?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Common sense tells me that if Edelman had 1 less target in the first half of the Dolphins game than he has in the other 6 quarters this season combined what you are saying does not align with reality whatsoever. Edelman is receiving 19.2% of Brady’s snaps. That is not that high at all, if you want to see high look at the 40% Jordy Nelson for getting in Green Bay. Brady hitting 5 different receivers does not sway the percentages that much.

You apparently only view 6”2+ X-WR as #1.

I think in an ideal world, we all want the WR1 to be a 6'2"+ leaper who runs like a gazelle, but there are some really good offenses whose best receivers are 6'0" or less. Antonio Brown in Pittsburgh, Jeremy Maclin in Philly and Reggie Wayne in Indy. Victor Cruz for the Giants, except their offense kinda sucks for reasons that are somewhat related to him but he's definitely not the main problem or anything. It might even be fair to say that Steve Smith is the top dog in Baltimore right now.

Bottom line, it isn't strictly necessary for your top WR to be a big dude in a really good offense, especially when you have Gronk. I've been slower than most to give Edelman credit, but even I'm coming around. I actually find that I appreciate him more when I go back and rewatch the game and just watch him specifically.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Brady "locking in" on Edelman has Edelman on pace for

96 Rec
1400 yards
14.7 AVG
8 TD
64 FD

But who wants that kind of production out of the #1 WR?

Not many among those who remember 2003 and 2004 - an offense that was actually much more difficult to defend against when you had to make that "must have" first down to win a game.

Oh sure, our best WR didn't get more than 60 passes in those Super Bowl seasons. And on paper, there have been many better ranked offenses here and elsewhere in the NFL (see Manning, Peyton)

But I didn't hear too many complaints around here, aside from fans from other teams who enjoyed mocking the Patriots lack of a dominant WR (but failed to notice the significant depth as Brady spread the field.)

 

[Halifax_Pats_Fan]

all 22 film shows Brady is not trusting all of his weapons...fixed it for ya...

 

[supafly]

Not many among those who remember 2003 and 2004 - an offense that was actually much more difficult to defend against when you had to make that "must have" first down to win a game.

Oh sure, our best WR didn't get more than 60 passes in those Super Bowl seasons. And on paper, there have been many better ranked offenses here and elsewhere in the NFL (see Manning, Peyton)

But I didn't hear too many complaints around here, aside from fans from other teams who enjoyed mocking the Patriots lack of a dominant WR (but failed to notice the significant depth as Brady spread the field.)

When you're allowing 14.8 points a game, your offense doesn't have to do too much to look fairly efficient.

Of course in 2004, we started running the ball much more effectively with the acquisition of Corey Dillon and his 1600 yds rushing that year, which opened up the passing a bit more and changed everything.

I agree that Patten, Givens, Brown etc all did their jobs without having a true "star" at WR; so maybe that's what we start to see again on a lesser level.

 

[Deus Irae]

Your stats show that Welker was the primary target (11 of 29) in the Super Bowl where he had a 38% completion rate

During the regular season Welker was targeted only 25% of the time and had a completion rate of 77%

That 25% also has to be taken in the context of a season in which the offense evolved to be HEAVILY focused on Welker and Moss.

You're telling me you REALLY don't think the Giants Defensive Coordinators were expecting a heavily Welker oriented offense and that had NOTHING to do with his having a completion rate HALF as high as the regular season????

These are YOUR stats. Don't argue with me about them. Feel free to argue with yourself. We'll just sit back, get some popcorn and enjoy the show

The stats show that your argument was complete horse crap.

11/29 = .379 (38%)
6/16= .375 (38%)

Same percentages in 2001 and 2007 Super Bowls.

Guess what else? In 2001, Troy Brown had 101 receptions. The team, as a whole, had 306 receptions. That's right. Troy Brown accounted for roughly 1/3 of all the Patriots receptions in 2001.
Brown - 101 catches
Patten - 51 catches

After them, the next WR in the chain caught 14 passes.

Seriously, I just don't get you sometimes. It's as if you have an overwhelming desire to look the fool.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The stats show that your argument was complete horse crap.

11/29 = .379 (38%)
6/16= .375 (38%)

Same percentages in 2001 and 2007 Super Bowls.

Guess what else? In 2001, Troy Brown had 101 receptions. The team, as a whole, had 306 receptions. That's right. Troy Brown accounted for roughly 1/3 of all the Patriots receptions in 2001.
Brown - 101 catches
Patten - 51 catches

After them, the next WR in the chain caught 14 passes.

Seriously, I just don't get you sometimes. It's as if you have an overwhelming desire to look the fool.

You keep trying to change the subject - now comparing the 2001 to 2007 Super Bowls when I very clearly and repeatedly was talking about 2003 & 2004 as an offense that I think stands a better chance of being models of lower predictability (and thus, more successful on that one "must make" first down/catch play)

Now I know you are NOT an idiot - so you are simply very adept at trying to fool others by "moving the lines" and trying to debate a different issue and even bring in a different season

2001 was an amazing season - and one that had a TON of good luck, in which it's doubtful even Belichick himself would assert that 2001 had anything to do with his master plan or offensive scheme with Brady stepping in for Bledsoe and relying heavily on Troy Brown etc - far from the ideal, and as I'm sure you know, Belichick then continued to refine the team to what we saw in 2003/2004

I highly doubt Belichick himself would refer to 2001 as a "model" season - though perhaps you sincerely do.

In any event I think it's plain for everyone here to see how you change the parameters of a debate when you know it's not quite going your way. You just hate to admit that anyone else's opinion, other than your own, is valid.

Everyone here knows that - and that's not something we need to debate.

 

[VJCPatriot]

This might well be true so far. But if the offensive line were giving him more time to throw, he could have more luxury to scan the entire field to find the open man instead of tossing it up to certain guys.

The pressure on Brady was pretty intense during the Miami and the Oakland game. Our protectors up front also need to step up so he can be at his best.

http://patspub.patsfans.com/2014/09/16/all-22-look-says-brady-not-using-all-his-weapons/

surprised no one has brought up this article. and this confirms what I have thought all along. Brady has developed a bad habit of only looking/passing to his "binkies" the past few years rather than just passing to the open guy.

he needs to get over this and start spreading the ball around if he expects the offense to get better. and it starts with HIM IMO...forcing balls to gronk/edelman when they are double covered is not the best option when you may have amendola or dobson wide open