2010 NFL MVP Debate (merged several times)

[coolguy]

You cannot reasonable compare purposeless cruelty and gambling addiction with a need to eat and survive. I'm sorry but that is just fundamentally flawed.

Am i the only that thinks dante stallworth crime was worse than vicks? Dude only dis 2 weeks in jail

 

[Lansdowne]

people identify with others that look like them. Especially in this country. How many asians do u see a rockets games when they come to your city (that otherwise wouldn't be there) just to see Yao play.

You're absolutely right that people identify with others that look like them, and that was exactly my point.

I wasn't surprised last night to look on Twitter and see many people of the black community still backing Vick as MVP (though there were still plenty supporting Brady, I didn't overlook that). To these individuals, he's a successful black man who was stripped of his fortune and his dignity by the white man, locked up, demonized by the media, and they want so badly for him to overcome all this adversity and be a symbol for perseverance. They want to put him on the same pedestal as Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Bill Russell, legends of their sports and heroes of and to their people. They were better people than Vick ever was.

With the Brady for MVP crowd, only Patriots fans are emotionally invested, whereas everyone else simply sees him as the obvious choice. With the Vick for MVP crowd, I see something different going on there, especially now that Vick has lost some steam with the general consensus. Perhaps I'm out of line saying all this but it's merely one man's opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with it.

ETA - Count me among those who:

- is a dog lover and hated Vick for what he did to those poor dogs
- was surprised at the punishment handed down to him, only because I thought he would get a slap on the wrist as a celebrity athlete
- agree that Leonard Little and Donte' Stallworth should have spent more time in the slammer than Vick or even Plaxico Burress for that matter
- reluctantly welcomed Vick back into the NFL because all personal judgments aside he's actually pretty entertaining to watch and he did serve his time
- thought there was still a chance we could see Brady and Vick share as co-MVP ala Manning and McNair in 2003... at least until last night

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Figured I'd post this here as well for those who can't understand why vick could conceivably come in second at all.

Peyton Manning 2009 MVP season
QB rating: 99
Total TD: 33
Int: 16
Yards: 4500

Vick 2010 stats

QB Rating: 100
Total TD: 30
Int: 5
Yards:3,696

 

[West Philly Patriot]

You're absolutely right that people identify with others that look like them, and that was exactly my point.

I wasn't surprised last night to look on Twitter and see many people of the black community still backing Vick as MVP (though there were still plenty supporting Brady, I didn't overlook that). To these individuals, he's a successful black man who was stripped of his fortune and his dignity by the white man, locked up, demonized by the media, and they want so badly for him to overcome all this adversity and be a symbol for perseverance. They want to put him on the same pedestal as Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Bill Russell, legends of their sports and heroes of and to their people. They were better people than Vick ever was.

With the Brady for MVP crowd, only Patriots fans are emotionally invested, whereas everyone else simply sees him as the obvious choice. With the Vick for MVP crowd, I see something different going on there, especially now that Vick has lost some steam with the general consensus. Perhaps I'm out of line saying all this but it's merely one man's opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with it.

ETA - Count me among those who:

- is a dog lover and hated Vick for what he did to those poor dogs
- was surprised at the punishment handed down to him, only because I thought he would get a slap on the wrist as a celebrity athlete
- agree that Leonard Little and Donte' Stallworth should have spent more time in the slammer than Vick or even Plaxico Burress for that matter
- reluctantly welcomed Vick back into the NFL because all personal judgments aside he's actually pretty entertaining to watch and he did serve his time

Nah, I would agree with your assesment. Any black person who compares vick to any of those names you mentioned should be slapped. I understand if people dislike vick. But this is still a football forum and he deserves to be a candidate.

I also don't think he should win comeback player of the year either. If the award was like the NBA's most improved player than yes between he and brandon lloyd. But he didnt go anywhere last year he rode the bench.

 

[Haley]

Brady (13-2)
35 total TDs
5 total turnovers
3,731 total yards (66.0%)
109.8 Rating

Vick (8-2)
30 total TDs
9 total turnovers
3,696 total yards (62.6%)
100.2 QB Rating

That's in the same discussion, slick
_________________

lol'd @ being 'slick'

As Pherein so eloquently pointed out earlier in the thread, there are many more deserving candidates than Vick. He never made it into this discussion on his own merit but instead by popularity. He fails to compare with many others who should have been considered.

He was included in the MVP discussion because these things made him popular:
a) he is fun to watch because he throws the long ball to DJax a lot
b) he risks his neck rushing the ball (stupid, as evidenced by his missed games, but still exciting to watch)
c) because he went to prison and therefore is 'cool'.

None of these things make him MVP over the previously mentioned list of candidates. His stats are worse than others not considered.

I dont think people eat dogs to survive haley. I think they eat it because they like the taste.

You have to eat something to survive, don't you? While there may be a push to move away from eating meat, it is the way humans have survived for quite a long time. It still does not compare to murdering an animal for entertainment. One is a crime, one isn't. There is a reason for that distinction.

I'm not comparing what vick did to a asians eating dogs.

Seemed like exactly what you are doing.

Am i the only that thinks dante stallworth crime was worse than vicks? Dude only dis 2 weeks in jail

Im saying that you can't compare him to a serial killer. Who murders PEOPLE.

These comments have no relevance to the discussion. Not sure why you are bringing these things up. No one has made comments on the relative severity of Vick's crime compared with others.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I'll go you one further on this line of thought: Vick admired himself in the mirror after the miracle win vs. the Giants and concluded that he's finally been vindicated as a player. "Coaching? Studying film? Bah! Look at the tattoo on my arm! I'm Superman!" Who really believes from his performance against the lowly Vikings -- in which he should've been picked off AT LEAST three times by SUBSTITUTE players in the secondary -- that he prepared hard for that game? Vick is a sociopathic cretin.

Because Brady didn't have a game last week that he could have been picked off multiple times...I think Brady is the MVP but one game doesn't define what he's done this season, not everybody is as humble as Brady. I know you hate Vick but surely you can see why he is deserving of the MVP.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I dont think people eat dogs to survive haley. I think they eat it because they like the taste. I'm not comparing what vick did to a asians eating dogs. Im saying that you can't compare him to a serial killer. Who murders PEOPLE.

Which tastes better, cats or dogs?

 

[JR4]

You cannot punish on-field success for off-field issues. Especially after the state of VA says he's paid for his crimes and The commissioner of the NFL has re-instated him. If the nfl is so worried about saving face than they shouldn't have re-instated him period.

So you think if a player that kids may want to emulate commits rape or
commits violent assault on his spouse but spends time in prison it is ok
to give honor or tribute to such a person?

I suppose it is ok to honor a person who murders two people violently
because of his great accomplishments as a running back in the NFL?

Personally, I can't separate the person from the things that person can do.
To me, the integrity of a person is as important as the things that
person can do.

"... they shouldn't have re-instated him period " you're right!
but the NFL is about money as well as football.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

lol'd @ being 'slick'

As Pherein so eloquently pointed out earlier in the thread, there are many more deserving candidates than Vick. He never made it into this discussion on his own merit but instead by popularity. He fails to compare with many others who should have been considered.

He was included in the MVP discussion because these things made him popular:
a) he is fun to watch because he throws the long ball to DJax a lot
b) he risks his neck rushing the ball (stupid, as evidenced by his missed games, but still exciting to watch)
c) because he went to prison and therefore is 'cool'.

None of these things make him MVP over the previously mentioned list of candidates. His stats are worse than others not considered.


You have to eat something to survive, don't you? While there may be a push to move away from eating meat, it is the way humans have survived for quite a long time. It still does not compare to murdering an animal for entertainment. One is a crime, one isn't. There is a reason for that distinction.


Seemed like exactly what you are doing.





These comments have no relevance to the discussion. Not sure why you are bringing these things up. No one has made comments on the relative severity of Vick's crime compared with others.

I said i wasn't comparing the two, and i didn't The comparison was directed towards pherein who compared vick's actions to a serial killer's read his post.

I stated that you can't be compared to someone who murders people when the thing you killed is food in some cultures.

 

[pherein]

I completely agree that this guy is not "rehabilitated" and probably never will be. This is a typical media BS bit that they are trying to jam down our throats. When a guy wins games, he's suddenly changed. Why? Because he smiles, says the right things, and hasn't been convicted of another felony yet.

My wife has just gotten into football this year, and she noticed a look on his face when his attitude suddenly changed during locker room footage of the Giants game. She turned to me and said "this guy is really evil." It was true; behind the scenes, you could really sense the anger and wickedness that he has in his heart. His vocal tone and facial expressions just completely changed.

We agree, you cant just judge people, but people do what they should be judged for. As I said Vick is New to the NFL, old hat to us. Most think roethlisberger is a cad. Vick was way worse. Your wife has good instincts.
He rarely beat N.O., and always lost to Brees, we intend to keep it that way.
But we really dont care if the guy gets 8000 yrds, 60 TD's, and a 90% rating. He should just feel lucky to play in the NFL, and never win a single honor or be in the HOF. There are so many good players that deserve it more.

 

[upstater1]

Am i the only that thinks dante stallworth crime was worse than vicks? Dude only dis 2 weeks in jail

The problem with Stallworth's case is that the guy would have likely been hit even if Stallworth wasn't intoxicated. He was crossing a dark 4 lane road where people speed.

Vick was executing dogs.

 

[upstater1]

You're absolutely right that people identify with others that look like them, and that was exactly my point.

I wasn't surprised last night to look on Twitter and see many people of the black community still backing Vick as MVP (though there were still plenty supporting Brady, I didn't overlook that). To these individuals, he's a successful black man who was stripped of his fortune and his dignity by the white man, locked up, demonized by the media, and they want so badly for him to overcome all this adversity and be a symbol for perseverance. They want to put him on the same pedestal as Jackie Robinson, Jesse Owens, Bill Russell, legends of their sports and heroes of and to their people. They were better people than Vick ever was.

With the Brady for MVP crowd, only Patriots fans are emotionally invested, whereas everyone else simply sees him as the obvious choice. With the Vick for MVP crowd, I see something different going on there, especially now that Vick has lost some steam with the general consensus. Perhaps I'm out of line saying all this but it's merely one man's opinion and nobody is obligated to agree with it.

ETA - Count me among those who:

- is a dog lover and hated Vick for what he did to those poor dogs
- was surprised at the punishment handed down to him, only because I thought he would get a slap on the wrist as a celebrity athlete
- agree that Leonard Little and Donte' Stallworth should have spent more time in the slammer than Vick or even Plaxico Burress for that matter
- reluctantly welcomed Vick back into the NFL because all personal judgments aside he's actually pretty entertaining to watch and he did serve his time
- thought there was still a chance we could see Brady and Vick share as co-MVP ala Manning and McNair in 2003... at least until last night

You can't overlook one thing: the criminal justice system in this country is wildly distorted. When you look at the rate of incarceration for similar crimes committed according to race, you can't come to any other conclusion. So obviously the African-American community is going to show sympathy for a man who was convicted under the current system. You would too if your own skin color automatically meant that you were more subject to incarceration than others.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

So you think if a player that kids may want to emulate commits rape or
commits violent assault on his spouse but spends time in prison it is ok
to give honor or tribute to such a person?

I suppose it is ok to honor a person who murders two people violently
because of his great accomplishments as a running back in the NFL?

Personally, I can't separate the person from the things that person can do.
To me, the integrity of a person is as important as the things that
person can do.

"... they shouldn't have re-instated him period " you're right!
but the NFL is about money as well as football.

Idk thats a personal thing. When i watch ray lewis I don't think damn he stabbed two people but i can see how someone could. Ray lewis didn't get half the flack vick got. Same with stallworth who killed a HUMAN BEING be it by accident but he was liable.

I'm not saying your wrong for feeling that way but you can't take away awards based on this. Not that it happended because brady had the better year and deserves the award period.

The problem with setting that precedent is, this is a christian nation and all that jazz so now your saying that forgiveness and second chances is good but not practical? America can't have it both ways. People deserve second chances.

 

[Haley]

I said i wasn't comparing the two, and i didn't The comparison was directed towards pherein who compared vick's actions to a serial killer's read his post.

I stated that you can't be compared to someone who murders people when the thing you killed is food in some cultures.

And my point is killing an animal out of malice is closer to killing a person out of malice than any food related endeavor. They both have malice and crime as components, while eating has neither.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

Which tastes better, cats or dogs?

Lol Can't say I've tried either. But my gf is dominican and when we went there last summer she told me that they sometimes eat cats there.

Edit: she has never tried it either lol

 

[upstater1]

Which tastes better, cats or dogs?

His point is well-taken. Eating different animals is a cultural thing. Some ethnicities don't eat pork, others cows, others horse, cat and dog. It's just the way things are. In Italy, they eat horse, and in the town of Vicenza they eat cat.

They don't need to eat cat to stay alive. That would be silly to suggest.

While I do draw distinctions between Vick executing animals and people eating animals, I would say that those distinctions absolutely fade when you compare the torture at Vick's house to the torture at factory farms.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I live in the inner city I see more criminals than I care to mention. So i know the justice system is flawed. But that is a case for the united states justice sysytem. Not football fans to take away accolades based on criminal history.

Having that said I agree, Something has to be off up there for you to do that. I pray he never does anything like that ever if so throw him under the jail for stupidity alone. I am not a dog-lover however I love MY dog. So i would probably have strangled vick if he'd done that to my dog. But I'm not a champion of all animal rights nor is anyone else on this board unless they are vegan.

I think too many americans pick and choose which animals are holy and which are expendable. Dogs are not people as mean as that may sound. You can't compare vick to a serial killer. Especially when in alot of cultures dogs are a snack

If Vick killed those dogs for food I would cut him some sociatal or cultural slack... He abused them inside and outside of the ring for nothing more than perverse enjoyment. You can callously kill an animal for no reason without torturing it first. Rule one for hunters in enlightened societies is to go for the clean kill. What he and his cohorts did goes beyond even engaging in the sick so-called sport of dog fighting. Serial killers start out torturing defenseless animals before they move on to more socially significant prey. This is the guy who also spread sexually transmitted disease with impunity under an assumed name. At a time when he had the means to do neither.

Anyone who thinks his turnaround is anything more than a desperation driven attempt to get his life(style) back is beyond naive. The only thing he's truly remorseful for is what he cost himself. The rest of it is just contrition born of financial necessity. Once his NFL days are over, and that can't come soon enough IMO, the contrition and remorse will be history too. Right now he's like the parolee with the ankle bracelet...Like the scum who convinced the parole board despite three life sentances he deserved another chance, who took out a 60 year old local cop here on Christmas eve...'cause he needed some $$$. Fortunately he's not around today to convince any more fools that his surroundings and poor parenting and peer pressure and hood loyalty induced lousy choice of companions led him down the wrong path against his better judgement...'cause he's really a good person who just made a bad decision... Vick had lots of good role models and mentors knocking themselves out to turn his life around long before he finally met the one entity who could (and only via consequence)...the Federal government. Once he's off their radar he will revert to form. He's already begun to unravel on the field. Off the field will eventually follow.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

And my point is killing an animal out of malice is closer to killing a person out of malice than any food related endeavor. They both have malice and crime as components, while eating has neither.

I dont think killing an animal however you did it is comparable to killing a person. I guess that's where you and I differ.

 

[upstater1]

And my point is killing an animal out of malice is closer to killing a person out of malice than any food related endeavor. They both have malice and crime as components, while eating has neither.

To say eating has no malice is a big stretch. One of my vegetarian buddies recently told me he was so freakin' angry at someone after a business meeting that he ate a hamburger--first meat in 20 years.

That's a joke, yes, but the fact is, you can't absolve yourself totally just because you want to eat. Animals are tortured at factory farms so that people can eat meat cheaply. And people who buy cheap meat perpetuate the torture of animals. Now, I'm not necessarily going to judge people for doing it, but a fact is a fact. You buy cheap meat, and you are perpetuating the torture of animals.

Unavoidable fact.

 

[coolguy]

You can't overlook one thing: the criminal justice system in this country is wildly distorted. When you look at the rate of incarceration for similar crimes committed according to race, you can't come to any other conclusion. So obviously the African-American community is going to show sympathy for a man who was convicted under the current system. You would too if your own skin color automatically meant that you were more subject to incarceration than others.

Dude mostly every one sympathized and wanted vick to play.

I remember watching a eagles game last year and right when mcnabb had a bad play, fans would chant "we want vick".