NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

upstater1 said:

It's not all that matters.

If it were, the judge's wouldn't have wasted their own time with things that don't matter.

Kessler, though he blew his stack, was smart enough to realize this. He understood that the very BASIS of Berman's decision had been overturned by the judges.

Which is why Kessler blew his stack.

Again, Steph Bradley seems to agree with my reading. She wrote that since judges will presume that any arbitrator's decision is based on the facts at hand (or the lack thereof) the oversight over an arbitrator's responsibilities will naturally also include a sifting through the facts.

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I'll withhold judgment until I can read the transcript. It's only 30 minutes so it won't be very long.

FCB02062 said:

As reports are almost unanimous that things went better for the league than for Brady today, let us all give a big **** YOU to Krafty Bob for bending over and grabbing his ankles for the "good of the 32" **** you Bob....

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Blame Kraft for what Roger has done.Ironic you continue to post on a board dedicated to the team he owns.

Hammer of Thor said:

I don't disagree, but in many professions including mine, if you just followed the bare minimum standards you'd be incompetent. There are reasons why the phrase "best practice" evolved, even if it's just used as a corporate buzzword by management in some cases. You can't say something is "compelling if not overwhelming" if a respected subject matter expert puts a piece of paper in front of you explaining why it isn't either. That's just laziness or incompetence, which may be allowable under the law but is very frustrating in general.

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You'd be amazed to the extent judges disregard the law and the facts. Yet, they're supposed to be treated as though they're infallible.

I am somewhat confused. What they are ruling on is whether bermans ruling of notice and withholding pash was correct to overturn the suspension.

Was any of that discussed?

PatsFanSince74 said:

He's a federal judge, nominated by the President of the United States and given a lifetime Appointment by the United States Senate. He doesn't give a **** who considers him a d-bag or whatever they consider him.

As far as I'm concerned, he can be the biggest **** on the planet, but he still hasn't said how he's going to rule on the core arguments related to Notice and Pash. For all we know, he was just messing with Clement, the big shot in the room.

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And that's the problem with lifetime appointments. If the judge turns out to be a tyrant or a horse's ass, you're stuck with them.

FCB02062 said:

Jonathan????

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How could Jonathan Kraft stop the NFL from going after someone they set out to get?

They locked onto Brady and made the decision to take him out, even though there's zero evidence of any wrong doing.

He could *****, moan and bad mouth, and to an extent they did, but besides that, there was no stopping that from happening.

RIpats88 said:

I am somewhat confused. What they are ruling on is whether bermans ruling of notice and withholding pash was correct to overturn the suspension.

Was any of that discussed?

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From what we've heard? No, not a lick.

Which is the most confusing and irritating part. Their entire line of questioning was based on non pertinent information.

Todd Bradley said:

Ahh, that was meant to say "There was bias to begin with". My apologies. Fixed it.

....And now we're on the same page here.

But still now, Brady's phone and Goodall's bias have zero to do with this appeal, strictly based on procedure and whether or not it was fair.

So none of this back-and-forth really answers anything on why this is part of the appeal arguments other than the Judges can ask whatever they hell they want.

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exactamundo...this is all a side show...maybe the judges just wanted to mess with Kessler or maybe they were messing with Clement by appearing to take his side...they're Federal Judges...make that, Federal Appeals Judges...one step below God...their courtroom is their playground...they do what they want...

All that matters is "Notice," "Access to Pash," "Access to other information and witnesses."

That's all. If the judges find that Berman ruled correctly on those three things, or even on just one or two of them, they Uphold. If they find he didn't, they Overturn. Simple as that.

upstater1 said:

He understood that the very BASIS of Berman's decision had been overturned by the judges.

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No

JMC00 said:

I see that people are focusing on what Parker said that seemed anti-Brady but he also said

Parker, meanwhile, said that -- while arbitrator decisions are normally deferred to by judges (Berman didn’t) -- “Goodell serves as judge, jury and, well, not executioner but enforcer. That difference makes it fundamentally different and more likely that the arbitrator’s decision needs more scrutiny and must not be deferred to.”

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That's less bad I guess

PatsFanSince74 said:

exactamundo...this is all a side show...maybe the judges just wanted to mess with Kessler or maybe they were messing with Clement by appearing to take his side...they're Federal Judges...make that, Federal Appeals Judges...one step below God...their courtroom is their playground...they do what they want...

All that matters is "Notice," "Access to Pash," "Access to other information and witnesses."

That's all. If the judges find that Berman ruled correctly on those three things, or even on just one or two of them, they Uphold. If they find he didn't, they Overturn. Simple as that.

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Agreed.

Which is why for the life of me I can't understand all the horror stories that are coming out, especially from those who PRACTICE LAW FOR A LIVING!

Brady's phone has nothing to do with anything they're ruling on now. It was useful information during the original case, but for this appeal, it means nothing.

I can't understand why people like McCann are inferring the NFL has the upper hand based on a line of questioning that has nothing to do with the actual appeal based on fairness and due process.

The judges can believe Brady had Jestremski and McNally crash the Hindenburg, but that has nothing to with whether or not the original investigation and his subsequent punishment was handled correctly by Goodell.

Imgflip Can we make Chin into a meme? I propose "Obtuse Judge Chin". I'm sure most of you can do better than I did.


Edit: Apparently I no longer know how to insert an image. And I have not watched Making a Murder, so I don't actually have an opinion one way or the other.

festy1986 said:

Who even cares.

Brady appeals again, wins, do this all over again next year.

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This ends in the CA2. It will never get to the Supreme Court, no matter who wins or loses.

RIpats88 said:

I am somewhat confused. What they are ruling on is whether bermans ruling of notice and withholding pash was correct to overturn the suspension.

Was any of that discussed?

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It doesn't sound like it was, which is why I don't understand why people are so upset.
I reserve the right to change my mind after I read the Transcript, but until then, I'm regarding today as a 30 minute Circus.

Todd Bradley said:

Agreed.

Which is why for the life of me I can't understand all the horror stories that are coming out, especially from those who PRACTICE LAW FOR A LIVING!

Brady's phone has nothing to do with anything they're ruling on now. It was useful information during the original case, but for this appeal, it means nothing.

I can't understand why people like McCann are inferring the NFL has the upper hand based on a line of questioning that has nothing to do with the actual appeal based on fairness and due process.

The judges can believe Brady had Jestremski and McNally crash the Hindenburg, but that has nothing to with whether or not the original investigation and his subsequent punishment was handled correctly by Goodell.

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Yes. I'm going to read the transcript and reserve the right to change my mind, but I think this was just a couple of Federal Judges, who are used to deciding matters of life and death and whether people spend decades in prison, messing around with a couple of over-egoed lawyers.

The only serious point I am ready to make is that the Appeal would probably have better been argued by an Appellate Attorney than Kessler.

Deus Irae said:

No

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Absolutely. Chin's comments and Parker's, I believe as well, had nothing to do with the basis of Berman's ruling. People are reading way, way too much into a little back and forth with a Federal Appeal's judge.

PatsFanSince74 said:

The only serious point I am ready to make is that the Appeal would probably have better been argued by an Appellate Attorney than Kessler.

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One of the people who'd been in the courtroom said that Kessler really had no chance to put forth a real argument, because he was peppered with questions and interrupted so much.


Having said that, I'm with you. I'm really hoping to get a crack at the transcript.

I haven't read most of the tweets and comments, but from i what i have read it sounds like these judges re-tried brady instead of focusing on what berman used to make his ruling last august. the fact that one judge stated that there was overwhelming evidence that brady tampered with the balls when the best that wells could come up with was 'generally aware of''makes me think this is a bag job on behalf of the nfl. It seems to me they should have been asking why about lack of due process or seeing jeff pash's notes. which are two of the reasons berman ruled in favor of brady.

Deus Irae said:

One of the people who'd been in the courtroom said that Kessler really had no chance to put forth a real argument, because he was peppered with questions and interrupted so much.

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thanks. that's helpful. i'm going to do what many here should do...wait and read the Transcript...my contrarian take, based on absolutely nothing but my gut instinct, is that Chin, in particular, is probably inclined to rule for the NFLPA but wanted to push the arguments as far as he could.

Todd Bradley said:

Agreed.

Which is why for the life of me I can't understand all the horror stories that are coming out, especially from those who PRACTICE LAW FOR A LIVING!

Brady's phone has nothing to do with anything they're ruling on now. It was useful information during the original case, but for this appeal, it means nothing.

I can't understand why people like McCann are inferring the NFL has the upper hand based on a line of questioning that has nothing to do with the actual appeal based on fairness and due process.

The judges can believe Brady had Jestremski and McNally crash the Hindenburg, but that has nothing to with whether or not the original investigation and his subsequent punishment was handled correctly by Goodell.

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I don't pretend to be a lawyer (although I do find the process fascinating). But some thoughts that could possibly explain this? -

1) didn't both sides agree to "set aside" Berman's ruling and argue in front of the appeals court from scratch? I thought I read that somewhere. So that could explain the lack of focus.

2) maybe they've already made up their mind that they are going to overtime Berman and, per their perogative, decide on all issues. Questioning the cell phone, etc. could go to the partiality question.

3) Judge Parker made an interesting point that's been overlooked. Essentially he's saying that deference to the arbiter only applies to independent arbiters. He could also think that the Supreme Court Garvey decision could also only apply to independent arbiters, and that by having an interested party as the arbiter, it in fact does allow the arbiter's determination of the facts to be up for question.

So these things could in fact be relevant depending on what their interpretation of the law is.

PatsFanSince74 said:

thanks. that's helpful. i'm going to do what many here should do...wait and read the Transcript...my contrarian take, based on absolutely nothing but my gut instinct, is that Chin, in particular, is probably inclined to rule for the NFLPA but wanted to push the arguments as far as he could.

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What I'm finding most amusing is that people haven't learned the most important lesson of delategate:

Wait until you have the actual document/transcript in front of you before going over the cliff.