The Most Egregious Case of Tampering Ever

BradyManny · Mar 12, 2015

Dcat said:
the Patriots have a $5 million dead money cap hit from Revis in their 2015 financial future. So in an odd way, you still have part of Revis with you.

One way of looking at it. Enjoy your shutdown corner, and thanks for the rental!

EDIT: My contract details were off. See below.

Bledsoehasaring · Mar 12, 2015

BradyManny said:
One way of looking at it, bro. Or you could look at it as they paid the guy a total of $17 million for one year of service, which helped put them up their 4th title. Not much different than paying $16 million a year to be on your garbage team. Enjoy your shutdown corner, and thanks for the rental!

We paid him 12 total 7 last year and 5 this year and as i said earlier they have paid him a shade under 100mil as of the signing of his contract. Tyipical jets paying 90 mil more and taking 8 years to do what the patriots can do in one oh wait they have never won a superbowl with revis

Ring 6 · Mar 12, 2015

BradyManny said:
One way of looking at it. Or you could look at it as they paid the guy a total of $17 million for one year of service, which helped put them up their 4th title. Not much different than paying $16 million a year to be on your garbage team. Enjoy your shutdown corner, and thanks for the rental!

No they paid him 12 mill.

BradyManny · Mar 12, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
No they paid him 12 mill.

So the 5 mill dead is part of that 12? Even better.

Ring 6 · Mar 12, 2015

BradyManny said:
So the 5 mill dead is part of that 12? Even better.

Correct.

We won the SB with Revis taking up a 7 mill cap hit.
Keeping him at a 16 mill cap hit would have meant accepting getting weaker at many other spots.

shmessy · Mar 12, 2015

patman52 said:
maybe in

Ivan the big thing that lessened the punishment to SF was that Chicago initiated the trade conversation. They asked SF if they wanted to trade for Briggs, SF contacted Briggs agent to discuss numbers without asking Chicago's permission to. In most cases teams that trade tagged players allow the other team to work a deal beforehand, SF just assumed the Bears understood that. When the bears went to sign briggs long term they found out ant SF and the agent discussed numbers and the agent knew what he was worth on the market.

There ya go. That strengthens the case even more for a larger punishment to the Jets than the 49ers case.

Ivan · Mar 12, 2015

If, as some are arguing, tampering doesn't matter, and it should just be a 3rd day pick then Bob McNair should hold a press conference today and announce to the world that he has 200 million in a bank vault with Andrew Lucks name on it, and another 100 million if that doesn't get it done. Hell, all its going to cost them is a 4th rounder so why not? Tampering doesn't matter, no harm no foul.

QuantumMechanic · Mar 12, 2015

What Woody said did not, in fact, matter. If Woody had never said a word publicly and had never leaked anything to Mehta, things would have happened the same as they did. Why? Because they still would have gotten the info to Revis out-of-sight. They might have reached out to Revis's agent. Revis's agent might have (and I bet sure he did because he would have been an idiot otherwise) call them and asked and they answered. Point being that Revis would have had exactly the same info if Woody had been locked away from all microphones.

That does not mean Woody shouldn't be punished. He clearly broke a clear rule and should be punished. However, I reject the "this has to be punished worse than Cameragate because it's worse" claim. Two wrongs don't make a right -- NE being ridiculously overpunished in Cameragate shouldn't mean overpunishments should keep on happening. Punish the Jets worse than NE should have been punished, not worse than NE was punished. I'd rather have punishments return to sanity than to keep the stupidity going.

If there's a "most egregious case of tampering ever", that would be about whatever happened via backchannels, not Woody's stupid statement. So sure, punish them hard for that if there's evidence of actual illegal negotiations. (Though before calling for heads over that, ask yourself exactly how sure you are that NE has never negotiated illegally, and how sure you are there aren't any records of it. As the Herald's Jeff Howe notes "However, remember it only took the Patriots five hours to agree to their deal with Revis last year after he was cut by the Buccaneers.")

Also, since most owners are not as stupid as Woody, there may well have been plenty of just as or more egregious tampering going on that we've never heard about because it was all out of the public eye.

BradyManny · Mar 12, 2015

rlcarr said:
If there's a "most egregious case of tampering ever", that would be about whatever happened via backchannels, not Woody's stupid statement. So sure, punish them hard for that if there's evidence of actual illegal negotiations. (Though before calling for heads over that, ask yourself exactly how sure you are that NE has never negotiated illegally, and how sure you are there aren't any records of it. As the Herald's Jeff Howe notes "However, remember it only took the Patriots five hours to agree to their deal with Revis last year after he was cut by the Buccaneers.")

You make a lot of good points, but two things:

1 - Belichick, in spite of his reputation, is actual a stickler for the rules. I actually don't think he would negotiate illegally. Sure, they struck a deal with Revis that night, but they actually worked out the details of the contract over the next day, IIRC. It was reported as $12 million for one year the first night, then we found out what they really did. What's there to work out for a 1 year 12 million deal? Sure that could be done in five hours. That could've been done in five minutes. There was no negotiation like there was here.

2 - Johnson's comments were in the middle of the season. I'm sure they could let Revis know of their interest off the record once the year is over, but do you really think somebody was going to text Revis midseason and say "hey, NYJ want you back, think about it!" I really doubt it. Players are busy, teams are busy, and I don't think anybody would think about crossing those lines. Woody's comments, as stupid and innocuous as they sound, gave Revis way more time to think about where he'd be playing next year than he probably otherwise would have during the season. A season in which he was playing right up into February. Johnson's comments worked. Just listen to Revis about all this "glad to be home" stuff.

I think you take for granted the idea that Revis would've known the Jets wanted him back. I found Johnson's comments surprising, given they traded the guy away and then didn't sign him when he was a free agent. Why are we to take it as a given that the Jets wanted him back until Johnson opened his stupid old mouth?

The Gr8est · Mar 12, 2015

rlcarr said:
What Woody said did not, in fact, matter. If Woody had never said a word publicly and had never leaked anything to Mehta, things would have happened the same as they did. Why? Because they still would have gotten the info to Revis out-of-sight. They might have reached out to Revis's agent. Revis's agent might have (and I bet sure he did because he would have been an idiot otherwise) call them and asked and they answered. Point being that Revis would have had exactly the same info if Woody had been locked away from all microphones.

That does not mean Woody shouldn't be punished. He clearly broke a clear rule and should be punished. However, I reject the "this has to be punished worse than Cameragate because it's worse" claim. Two wrongs don't make a right -- NE being ridiculously overpunished in Cameragate shouldn't mean overpunishments should keep on happening. Punish the Jets worse than NE should have been punished, not worse than NE was punished. I'd rather have punishments return to sanity than to keep the stupidity going.

If there's a "most egregious case of tampering ever", that would be about whatever happened via backchannels, not Woody's stupid statement. So sure, punish them hard for that if there's evidence of actual illegal negotiations. (Though before calling for heads over that, ask yourself exactly how sure you are that NE has never negotiated illegally, and how sure you are there aren't any records of it. As the Herald's Jeff Howe notes "However, remember it only took the Patriots five hours to agree to their deal with Revis last year after he was cut by the Buccaneers.")

Also, since most owners are not as stupid as Woody, there may well have been plenty of just as or more egregious tampering going on that we've never heard about because it was all out of the public eye.

If the league goes back in and revisits CameraPlacementGate and corrects the punishment to something reasonable, like loss of a 3rd or 4th round pick, then we can evaluate the tampering issue with a different standard than Goodell and his pack of ex-rodent henchmen in the NFL have already established.

Until then, this is a much more serious offense, since the Pats actually lost the tampered with player, along with collateral damage like Browner, and the punishment needs to reflect that.

QuantumMechanic · Mar 12, 2015

BradyManny said:
I think you take for granted the idea that Revis would've known the Jets wanted him back. I found Johnson's comments surprising, given they traded the guy away and then didn't sign him when he was a free agent. Why are we to take it as a given that the Jets wanted him back until Johnson opened his stupid old mouth?

My point (and belief) is that Woody's public statement provided no new info to Revis. At whatever point the Jets wanted Revis back I firmly believe they had someone call Revis's agent and let him know. And I believe that would have happened whether or not Woody has opened his mouth. I think that what went down is that Woody had a change of mind, decided to make a run at Revis, and then because (a) it was fresh in his mind and (b) because he is an idiot, he made his statement.

Think about it. What possible reason could it be for Woody's statement to be part of some grand plan? It makes him look like (more of) an idiot, opens the Jets up to tampering charges, and doesn't give Revis any more info than you could have easily given him behind the scenes.

Again, I do believe they should be punished. Woody clearly broke a clear rule. By default I think that punishment should be on a par with other tampering punishments. If the NFL can get evidence of actual illegal negotiations then sure, punish the Jets harder than teams have been punished in the past.

And separate from any punishment thing, I maintain that this would have gone down the same way if Woody had kept his mouth shut. That does not mean the Jets shouldn't be punished. Only that it (IMHO) is extremely silly to point to Woody's statements as the reason NE did not/could not resign Revis.

(I also believe Revis always intended to go to free agency, from the moment he signed the contract with NE, which is another reason why I don't think anything the Jets have been alleged to have done matters -- though again, whether or not it matters is separate from whether or not they should be found guilty of tampering.)

ThatllMoveTheChains!!! · Mar 12, 2015

The Gr8est said:
If the league goes back in and revisits CameraPlacementGate and corrects the punishment to something reasonable, like loss of a 3rd or 4th round pick, then we can evaluate the tampering issue with a different standard than Goodell and his pack of ex-rodent henchmen in the NFL have already established.

Until then, this is a much more serious offense, since the Pats actually lost the tampered with player, along with collateral damage like Browner, and the punishment needs to reflect that.

And based on the league launching an independent investigation, keeping the Superbowl balls under lock and key, and doing nothing to downplay the situation you can bet they were ready to over punish the Patriots again.

BradyManny · Mar 12, 2015

rlcarr said:
And separate from any punishment thing, I maintain that this would have gone down the same way if Woody had kept his mouth shut. That does not mean the Jets shouldn't be punished. Only that it (IMHO) is extremely silly to point to Woody's statements as the reason NE did not/could not resign Revis.

Again, great points all around in the post, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I am not as 100% certain that the idea of Revis to the Jets gets in his mind during the season unless Woody opens his mouth. No, I don't think its part of a master plan either, I'm sure they would've just waited for the offseason and tampered away. But I would be surprised if the Jets would be talking to Revis or his agents during the year.

QuantumMechanic · Mar 12, 2015

BradyManny said:
No, I don't think its part of a master plan either, I'm sure they would've just waited for the offseason and tampered away. But I would be surprised if the Jets would be talking to Revis or his agents during the year.

Perhaps, but given Revis's history and given the nature of his contract with NE and given all the reports that both NE and Revis considered it a one-year deal do you really think Revis wasn't going to test the FA market? And once he hit the FA market the Jets would have made the same offer and the same thing would have happened. In other words, with respect to NE being able to keep Revis anything the Jets did before 16:00 EDT on 10 March was totally irrelevant. (With respect to it being tampering or not, different story.)

BradyManny · Mar 12, 2015

rlcarr said:
Perhaps, but given Revis's history and given the nature of his contract with NE and given all the reports that both NE and Revis considered it a one-year deal do you really think Revis wasn't going to test the FA market? And once he hit the FA market the Jets would have made the same offer and the same thing would have happened. In other words, with respect to NE being able to keep Revis anything the Jets did before 16:00 EDT on 10 March was totally irrelevant. (With respect to it being tampering or not, different story.)

Fair point. Can't really argue with that.

CMP041 · Mar 12, 2015

Punishments are not based on speculation. Woody went on record courting a player under contract. Accident or not is irrelevant. Any opinion on what Revis would or would not have done is speculation. Fact is - Woody said he wanted Revis and than got him.....on the first few hours of FA.

CMP041 · Mar 12, 2015

This is tricky for the NFL. It is a clear case of tampering with a HOF caliber player. I think the Lance Briggs tampering case was a late round pick and a swap of third round picks. Now add - the caliber of player (Briggs was a PB player) and the increasing cost/penalty of breaking the rules. There has to be a punishment - would the Jets have signed him if the NFL didn't drag their feet on this ?

QuantumMechanic · Mar 12, 2015

Reiss has echoed my feelings on the tampering aspect of this well. And in a lot fewer words

Mike Reiss said:
I've said all along if what Woody Johnson said isn't tampering, then they should just forget about the tampering rule altogether. That is the textbook definition of tampering. That being said, everyone tampers. It's just that not everyone is foolish enough to mention it publicly.

Brady2Moss · Mar 12, 2015

Dcat said:
Come on... you don't see the hilarity in this thread? Well worth the 15 minutes to read, laugh, log in and thank you all for the comedic genius. Nighty night. Keep the candle lit for that "swap of 1st round picks" .

It would probably be more beneficial to the Pats if Rodger the Fraud made the Jets keep that pick, you guys can draft another Vernon Gholston to pair up with Mevis. Enjoy going 7-9 and being eliminated from the playoffs by the Barfallo Bills in week 15

1960Pats · Mar 12, 2015

Brady2Moss said:
It would probably be more beneficial to the Pats if Rodger the Fraud made the Jets keep that pick, you guys can draft another Vernon Gholston to pair up with Mevis. Enjoy going 7-9 and being eliminated from the playoffs by the Barfallo Bills in week 15

You know, the NYJ/Bills games will be very interesting this year. Much more than normal. Imagine if Rex did knock the Jets out of contention? It would be worth it to see the Jets fans fighting with each other over The Blowhard.

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