So, are we looking for cornerbacks?

KevinFaulk-33 · Mar 11, 2015

I know that the FA isn't over, that Browner can be resigned... But now we have to, at least, study some new corners.

So, what does this draft offers?

midwestpatsfan · Mar 11, 2015

i think it all depends. Could be a tough position to gauge because we don't exactly know what type of scheme the Patriots will run this year now. Last year, the Patriots played a ton of man because of Revis and Browner, now, it looks more likely they move back to a cover 1 or 2, maybe cover 3.

mayoclinic · Mar 11, 2015

midwestpatsfan said:
i think it all depends. Could be a tough position to gauge because we don't exactly know what type of scheme the Patriots will run this year now. Last year, the Patriots played a ton of man because of Revis and Browner, now, it looks more likely they move back to a cover 1 or 2, maybe cover 3.

But you can certainly go back to scouting CBs. We promise to read your CB reports more carefully now.

BobDigital · Mar 11, 2015

Short answer is yes.

We should not reach for one but if a good value CB falls we should jump on it.

I said before I don't see any CBs White/Jones/Collins/Peters ect worth taking at 32 and I still hold to that as far as value options.

With a small trade down a few of them become very tempting. If we trade down to 40 and Jones is there he is my priority pick (assuming some one of considerably better value is not there).

I still think we can and should address CB in free agency but it is going to be bend don't break and if we ever want to hold on to a good CB for a longer period of time than 1-2 year.

ashley · Mar 11, 2015

I think right now, CB has become as important of a need as the O-Line and D-Line. I think it's rare that a young corner comes in and contributes though. I would hope we could get 1 or 2 in free agency.

VectorPrime · Mar 12, 2015

Rookie corners don't contribute at a high level while rookie DTs and DEs and some offensive linemen can. So I would be really disappointed if we drafted yet another CB in the first 2 rounds in an especially weak class. The CB answer has to be in a trade, no other way to go.

Aßßynormal · Mar 12, 2015

Is it fair to say, that a good College Press CB - can also play - good in zone coverage if given a Training Camp?

I ask the question because I'd like us to draft Press CBs even if we play mostly zone this year. That way, as the CBs develop, we can switch back to press coverage. However, I'm not sure if I've got the logic correct.

manxman2601 · Mar 12, 2015

Aßßynormal said:
Is it fair to say, that a good College Press CB - can also play - good in zone coverage if given a Training Camp?

I ask the question because I'd like us to draft Press CBs even if we play mostly zone this year. That way, as the CBs develop, we can switch back to press coverage. However, I'm not sure if I've got the logic correct.

Not necessarily, although mainly because of athletic failings. A big stiff physical corner could play press at the college level but would struggle more in off coverage or in zone. Zone corners need to be better at changing direction and have better reaction times. However, the better corners should be able to play both.

manxman2601 · Mar 12, 2015

A second Byron Jones video from Draft Breakdown. Love his length and physicality and he's in the backpocket of his receiver on almost every play. Add in his athleticism which I think is almost a pre-requisite for an early Patriots pick and Jones is a borderline first round grade for me and was, even before we lost Revis. I think he's got some really good upside.

mayoclinic · Mar 12, 2015

manxman2601 said:
A second Byron Jones video from Draft Breakdown. Love his length and physicality and he's in the backpocket of his receiver on almost every play. Add in his athleticism which I think is almost a pre-requisite for an early Patriots pick and Jones is a borderline first round grade for me and was, even before we lost Revis. I think he's got some really good upside.

I haven't reviewed Jones' film yet. Reports are that his skill set is better suited to zone than press man. Where do you see him fitting in terms of scheme?

mayoclinic · Mar 12, 2015

Current CB rankings from NFL Draftscout:

13. Trae Waynes - Michigan St. - 6' 0 1/8" 186#. 4.31 40.
27. Kevin Johnson - Wake Forest - 6' 0 1/4" 188#. 4.52 40, 41" VJ, 6.79 3C, 3.88 SS.
29. Marcus Peters - Washington - 5' 11 1/2" 197#.
34. Quinten Rollins - Miami (Ohio) - 5' 11" 195#.
40. PJ Williams - Florida St. 6' 0" 194#. 40" VJ.
51. Jalen Collins - LSU - 6' 1 1/2" 203#. 32 1/8" arms, 4.48 40, 6.77 3C.
55. Byron Jones - UConn - 6' 0 1/2" 199#. 32" arms. 45" VJ, 12'3" BJ, like 4.3+ 40, 6.78 3C, 3.94 SS.

I think there's a good chance Collins and Jones are off the board by 32.

patsfaninpa · Mar 12, 2015

mayoclinic said:
Current CB rankings from NFL Draftscout:

13. Trae Waynes - Michigan St. - 6' 0 1/8" 186#. 4.31 40.
27. Kevin Johnson - Wake Forest - 6' 0 1/4" 188#. 4.52 40, 41" VJ, 6.79 3C, 3.88 SS.
29. Marcus Peters - Washington - 5' 11 1/2" 197#.
34. Quinten Rollins - Miami (Ohio) - 5' 11" 195#.
40. PJ Williams - Florida St. 6' 0" 194#. 40" VJ.
51. Jalen Collins - LSU - 6' 1 1/2" 203#. 32 1/8" arms, 4.48 40, 6.77 3C.
55. Byron Jones - UConn - 6' 0 1/2" 199#. 32" arms. 45" VJ, 12'3" BJ, like 4.3+ 40, 6.78 3C, 3.94 SS.

I think there's a good chance Collins and Jones are off the board by 32.

I don't think they're doing a good job on their rankings. Jalen Collins will go before Kevin Johnson. I'd put him second. We won't have a shot at Waynes or Jalen Collins. Ronald Darby has shot up on most sites and is ahead of PJ Williams. That 3d corner will probably come down to him, Peters with a chance for Byron Jones if he runs well at his pro day. Peters is risky because of character issues. Thrown off team for choking his position coach. Of course, I can't say I haven't wanted to do that to some of our position coaches at times

Ronald Darby is 5'11" 193lb and ran a 4.38 at the combine. 41.5 VERT, 6.94 in 3-cone. I think his forty will get him drafted 3rd. We will have to choose from; Peters, Jones and Kevin Johnson.

mayoclinic · Mar 12, 2015

patsfaninpa said:
I don't think they're doing a good job on their rankings. Jalen Collins will go before Kevin Johnson. I'd put him second. We won't have a shot at Waynes or Jalen Collins. Ronald Darby has shot up on most sites and is ahead of PJ Williams. That 3d corner will probably come down to him, Peters with a chance for Byron Jones if he runs well at his pro day. Peters is risky because of character issues. Thrown off team for choking his position coach. Of course, I can't say I haven't wanted to do that to some of our position coaches at times Ronald Darby is 5'11" 193lb and ran a 4.38 at the combine. 41.5 VERT, 6.94 in 3-cone. I think his forty will get him drafted 3rd. We will have to choose from; Peters, Jones and Kevin Johnson.

I agree that their rankings are off. Peters, Jones and Collins are the 3 guys who interest me the most right now.

manxman2601 · Mar 12, 2015

mayoclinic said:
I agree that their rankings are off. Peters, Jones and Collins are the 3 guys who interest me the most right now.

If we sign Bush and trade for Evan Mathis, we can go at the CB position early and often. Jones in the first, Steven Nelson and maybe even Nick Marshall. Then just let everyone in camp battle each other to set the hierarchy.

manxman2601 · Mar 13, 2015

The Redskins are paying 8m a year for Chris Culliver. At that sort of money I think I'm happier taking a hit for this year and looking towards a double dip in the draft at CB and then seeing what happens in camp. Get better on the DL and on offense to mitigate for the weaknesses in the secondary with a view to being better everywhere in 2016 and beyond.

midwestpatsfan · Mar 13, 2015

Spent my friday night watching more CB film. I think it might actually be bordering on obsession at this point. Anyways, here are some more tidbits from my viewing.
1. The more I watch Marcus Peters, the more I want him. Great instincts, great size, scheme diverse. Off field issues seem to be from a competitive nature and seem to be resolved between the 2 parties. Was hoping he would fall because of it, but I don't see it. Would be willing to do a small trade up for him.

2. I keep finding myself wanting to move Eric Rowe up my boards. I had assumed he would go back to safety in the NFL, but he played well at CB his senior year and his combine shows he has the speed and movement skills to play there. I like the idea of position flexibility.

3. I watched a little more Byron Jones. He is stiff when he turns, but he has a nice low backpedal and if the patriots do go to a zone based scheme, I think he would be good in it. I don't think his freak athleticism translates to the field, so I am pumping the brakes a little. Would feel more comfortable getting him at the end of round 2 rather than having to trade up to get him.

4. I just cannot get on board with PJ Williams as a first round pick. I think he struggles to turn and run with guys and I don't see him turn to locate the ball very well.

Just my 2 cents this morning.

manxman2601 · Mar 13, 2015

Nice job MWPF. I'll probably start on CBs this weekend.

Kevin Johnson has been getting rave reviews of late:

ESPN's Kevin Weidl writes that Wake Forest CB Kevin Johnson "has the cleanest pure movement skills of any cornerback in the class."
"He is loose in the hips and shows excellent flexibility in his lower half that provides him with quality mirror capabilities in man coverage," Weidl wrote. "In addition, Johnson displays strong field awareness, recognizing route concepts, and flashes the anticipation skills to manufacture big plays. At 6-foot and 188 pounds, he has a lean frame and needs to continue to add bulk. However, he is willing to step up in run support, and plays with the type of confident edge you like to see at the position." The analyst believes Johnson will appeal the Saints at No. 31. Picking in the same range, New England is sure to have interest.

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/cfb/133619/kevin-johnson

Also had a 6.89 3cone and 3.89 shuttle a well as a 41" vert and 10'10" broad.

mayoclinic · Mar 13, 2015

midwestpatsfan said:
Spent my friday night watching more CB film. I think it might actually be bordering on obsession at this point. Anyways, here are some more tidbits from my viewing.
1. The more I watch Marcus Peters, the more I want him. Great instincts, great size, scheme diverse. Off field issues seem to be from a competitive nature and seem to be resolved between the 2 parties. Was hoping he would fall because of it, but I don't see it. Would be willing to do a small trade up for him.

2. I keep finding myself wanting to move Eric Rowe up my boards. I had assumed he would go back to safety in the NFL, but he played well at CB his senior year and his combine shows he has the speed and movement skills to play there. I like the idea of position flexibility.

3. I watched a little more Byron Jones. He is stiff when he turns, but he has a nice low backpedal and if the patriots do go to a zone based scheme, I think he would be good in it. I don't think his freak athleticism translates to the field, so I am pumping the brakes a little. Would feel more comfortable getting him at the end of round 2 rather than having to trade up to get him.

4. I just cannot get on board with PJ Williams as a first round pick. I think he struggles to turn and run with guys and I don't see him turn to locate the ball very well.

Just my 2 cents this morning.

Very good thoughts.

I agree on Peters. He's the best press-man CB in this draft. I also agree on Rowe sticking at CB. He could be a good physical press-man #2 CB. The combination of Peters and Rowe would be my ideal combination for the long term, though 2015 would be a bridge year.

I also agree that Jones doesn't quite play up to his athleticism, from what I've seen so far. He seems better in zone than in man coverage. I think PJ Williams can make an excellent physical #2 CB, but not a #1.

My fantasy scenario (and again, it's a fantasy):

32. Todd Gurley falls to the Pats. I know, Dallas will probably take him at 27. It's a fantasy.
*** Pats get #37 from the Jets for tampering. I know, it will never happen. It's a fantasy.
37. Marcus Peters is somehow available.
64. Marcus Hardison.
96 (possibly with a trade up, using our 4th). Ali Marpet.
3rd round comp. Eric Rowe.
4th (from TB). Best available OL.

Take out the tampering pick fantasy and I'd be ecstatic if either Gurley or Peters was available at 32. If the Pats went with Gurley, they might be able to get another good CB with the TB pick (such as Josh Shaw), and go with a 2nd OL later on.

manxman2601 · Mar 13, 2015

something to bear in mind when scouting cornerbacks:

Daniel Jeremiah had a section in his latest podcast (Move The Sticks, ep 11) about what BB looks for in defensive backs. This comes from a 2004 talk he attended by a scout that had worked with Belichick and Saban. Jeremiah took notes and these are some of the requirements for both CBs and Safeties.

CB

Defending the pass is the lifeline of a corners game.

A good CB will always be within an arms length of the receiver

Has to have the confidence to play on an island

Cannot go into 'the tank'

All good corners are selfish and ****y. "Being a Turd" is not always a bad thing.

There are no humble corners

Has to have the right outlook on EVERY snap. Cannot get bored. Four plays will determine the outcome of a game.

Has to have excellent athletic ability and instincts.

Must have good ball skills downfield. Must be able to locate the ball downfield

Should be a solid tackler. Gets guys on the ground.

Plays physical with the wideout. Don't let the wideout get comfortable.

Small corners with exceptional skills can still play in the NFL. Small corners with only good ball skills get beat.

A good barometer for a corner is how often does he get his hands on the ball. Not just INTs but break ups too.

Third corners are starters (bear in mind this was 2004).

Dropped interceptions are killers.

mayoclinic · Mar 13, 2015

manxman2601 said:
something to bear in mind when scouting cornerbacks:

Good stuff. We've struggled with some of those:

- Small corners with only good ball skills at best (Wheatley, Hobbs, Wiilhite, many others).
- Corners with trouble locating the ball.

So, are we looking for cornerbacks?

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