Darrelle Revis

JarOfMayo51 · Dec 10, 2014

Oswlek said:
McCourty is very good. Revis is a historical great, an easy HOFer even if he never plays another down.

I have to admit to not seeing the difficulty in choosing between them either.

If Revis were 25 years old I'd agree, but he's approaching 30.

Mccourty can be a top safety for the next 10 years, Revis only has about 4 more years of shut down ability

Oswlek · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
If Revis were 25 years old I'd agree, but he's approaching 30.

Mccourty can be a top safety for the next 10 years, Revis only has about 4 more years of shut down ability

Shift the ages 3 years and I might be inclined to agree. But since both are likely to only sign for ~4 years, that's the only time frame I really care about.

JarOfMayo51 · Dec 10, 2014

Deus Irae said:
No, it's not. It's an expression connoting immediacy and a lack of hesitation. If the call comes down to an A v. B situation with Revis and McCourty both having acceptable contract demands but combining to make it impossible to keep both, I take Revis, in a heatbeat.

It isn't even a remotely close call.

Well I'll make sure to pray and thank God tonight that you aren't our General Manager

Not resigning a young man whos one of the top 3 free safeties in the league coming off his rookie deal, a team captain, a highly respected person both on and off the field and a pillar in the community should not be a decision that you make "without hesitation"

Oswlek · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
Not resigning a young man whos one of the top 3 free safeties in the league coming off his rookie deal, a team captain, a highly respected person both on and off the field and a pillar in the community should not be a decision that you make "without hesitation"

I can't speak for Deus, but my statement has nothing to do with a lack of desire to re-sign McCourty. Prior to signing Revis, McCourty was my top priority for this off season. I just think that Revis is such a dominant force that he has leapfrogged Devin. Obviously I would choose keeping both over either of them.

luuked · Dec 10, 2014

Oswlek said:
I have to admit to not seeing the difficulty in choosing between them either.

Fortunately the Patriots are run in a way where we will not have to decide between either of them. As usual it will be a cost/benefit analysis that is more generous with elite players. I fully expect both to be back.

The only question I have is how much depth we can bring back because I really like our defense this year. Also no idea about Mayo. Restructure is most likely I guess. But I would be very surprised if BB doesn't have a lot of fun putting together advanced defensive schemes and then seeing them pay off. Revis and McC are a big part of that.

It would take a crazy, crazy offer from another contender to pry him away I think.

mayoclinic · Dec 10, 2014

luuked said:
The only question I have is how much depth we can bring back because I really like our defense this year. Also no idea about Mayo. Restructure is most likely I guess. But I would be very surprised if BB doesn't have a lot of fun putting together advanced defensive schemes and then seeing them pay off. Revis and McC are a big part of that..

FWIW, I posted the following straw-man on the draft board earlier today:

mayoclinic said:
My rough (approximately) zero-sum approach to keeping the defense intact:

I. Players currently under contract:

1. Darrelle Revis, CB. Signed through 2015. 2015 cap hit: $25M (including $5M carryover from 2014).
2. Jerod Mayo, LB. Signed through 2017. 2015 cap hit: $10.3M.
3. Vince Wilfork, DT. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $8.4M.
4. Brandon Browner, CB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $4.9M.
5. Kyle Arrington, CB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $4.6M.
6. Rob Ninkovich, DE/OLB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $3.7M.
7. Chandler Jones, DE. Signed through 2016, with an option for 2017. 2015 cap hit: $2.6M.
8. Dont'a Hightower, LB/DE. Signed through 2016, with an option for 2017. 2015 cap hit: $2.5M.
9. Dominique Easley, DT/DE. Signed through 2017, with an option for 2018. 2015 cap hit: $1.7M.
10. Alfonzo Dennard, CB. Signed through 2015. 2015 cap hit: $1.5M.
11. Tavon Wilson, S. Signed through 2015. 2015 cap hit: $1.3M.
12. Jamie Collins, LB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $1,0M.
13. Logan Ryan, CB/S. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $750K.
14. Duron Harmon, FS. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $725K.
15. Nate Ebner, S. Signed through 2015. 2015 cap hitL $685K.
16. Michael Buchanan, DE/OLB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $600K.
17. Chris Jones, DT/DE. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $585K.
18. Zach Moore, DE. Signed through 2017. 2015 cap hit: $535K.
19. Malcolm Butler, CB. Signed through 2016. 2015 cap hit: $510K.

19 players under contract; total 2015 cap hit = $71.89M.

II. FAs

20. Devin McCourty, FS
21. Akeem Ayers, DE/OLB
22. Pat Chung, SS
23. Alan Branch, DT
24. Jonathan Casillas, LB
25. Sealver Siliga, DT (ERFA)

III. Proposed extensions/signings:

Cap Savings from Extensions/Restructurings:

1. Extend Darrelle Revis: 4 years/$60M, $45M guaranteed, $20M signing bonus. That's a higher AAV than Joe Haden, Richard Sherman or Patrick Peterson, with more guaranteed money than Haden or Sherman and a bigger signing bonus than any of them. It's above the AAV for the top CBs, and bit below the AAV for the top 3 defensive contracts in the NFL (JJ Watt $16,5M AAV; Mario Williams $16M AAV; Gerald McCoy $15.8M AAV). Base salaries + incentives of roughly $7M, $9M, $9M and $15M (the last year non-guaranteed). 2015 cap hit: $17M ($5 million pro-rated signing bonus + $7M base + $5M carryover from 2014). Net 2015 cap savings: $8M. MgTeich and others have suggested more aggressive savings proposals, but I'm being conservative.

2. Restructure Jerod Mayo's deal to lower his 2015 cap his to about $7.5M. Net 2015 cap savings: $2.8M. Not sure if this would be via a direct pay cut, a restructuring, or an extension, but I think there is some room to work here.

3. Extend Kyle Arrington through 2017 with a 1 year $4M extension, lowering his 2015 cap hit by $1M.

4. Extend Brandon Browner through 2017 with a 1 year $4M extension, lowering his 2015 cap hit by $1M.

Total 2015 cap savings from defensive restructurings/extensions: $12.8M.

Cap Additions from Extensions/Re-Signings:

4. Sign Devin McCourty to a 5 year/$40M extension with $16M guaranteed and a $10M signing bonus. Base salary+incentives of $2.5M, $5.5M, $6.5M, $6.5M and $9M. 2015 cap hit: $5M.

5. Sign Akeem Ayers to a 4 year/$16M extension with $7.5M guaranteed and a $6.5M signing bonus. Essentially the same deal that Kyle Arrington got in 2013. Base salaries+incentives of $1M, $2M, $3M and $3.5M. 2015 cap hit: $2.625M. Someone could possibly throw more money at Ayers if he chooses to hit FA, but he's had only half a season of productivity and was on the scrap heap fairly recently, so I'm not sure he gets silly money. This deal values him - like Arrington - as a major rotational player and part of the defense, with starting potential.

6. Sign Alan Branch to a 2 year / $3M contract with $1M guaranteed and a $1M signing bonus. Base salary+incentives of $1M in 2015 and 2016. 2015 cap hit: $1.5M.

7. Sign Patrick Chung to a 2 year / $4M contract with $2M guaranteed and a $1M signing bonus. Base salary+incentives of $1.3M and $1.7M. 2015 cap hit: $1.8M.

8. Sign Jonathan Casillas to a 3 year/$4.5M contract with $2M guaranteed and a $1M signing bonus. Base salary+incentives of $1M, $1M and $1.5M. 2015 cap hit of $1.333M.

9. Sign Sealver Siliga to an ERFA contract. 2015 cap hit of around $660K, per Miguel.

Total 2015 defensive extensions/resignings: $12.918M.

That's about a $100K difference, which is minimal, and could probably be made up elsewhere.

These are very crude numbers, and rough estimates. Obviously, any of the re-signings could be drastically altered if someone wants to break the bank. But I think they are reasonable starting points. I think it is possible - though by no means easy, or a given - to keep the defense intact without adding to our current 2015 defensive cap allocation.

This would allow the Pats to potentially retain the 2014 defensive core completely intact for 2015, while keeping their cap space and carryover from 2015 for re-signing offensive and ST players, and for the draft, UDFAs, and contingency funds.

Wilfork's deal will likely be off the books in 2016, providing room for one of the 5th year options on Jones/Hightower. The other can probably be managed with the projected cap growth. Managing extensions for all of Jones, Hightower and Collins will be tricky, but with work the Pats should be able to keep the defense largely intact through 2017.

JarOfMayo51 · Dec 10, 2014

Oswlek said:
I can't speak for Deus, but my statement has nothing whatsoever to do with a lack of desire to re-sign McCourty. Prior to signing Revis, McCourty was my top priority for this off season. I just think that Revis is such a dominant force that he has leapfrogged Devin. Obviously I would choose keeping both over either of them.

I think it's fine to think Revis is the top priority over mccourty, I can certainly see the reasoning behind feeling that way

What bothered me is the "without hesitation " comments and stuff, I feel that's disrespectful to Mccourty who has been a consumate professional since he came into the league and is a Patriot type guy through and through.

To suggest that you wouldn't have to even think about releasing him over someone else, regardless of who that player is, just rubs me the wrong way is all.

To each their own, but we should all be grateful for having McCourty over the last 4 years or so, he's been the only bright spot in that secondary for awhile and there are only 2 or so other players that have the range and ball skills that he does playing center field.

He's also towed the Patriot line and has been a model citizen and teammate. You can't ask for better than him, he represents everything you want in a Patriot player and should be shown respect, even if a mercenary is better than him talent wise

Deus Irae · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
Well I'll make sure to pray and thank God tonight that you aren't our General Manager

Not resigning a young man whos one of the top 3 free safeties in the league coming off his rookie deal, a team captain, a highly respected person both on and off the field and a pillar in the community should not be a decision that you make "without hesitation"

When comparing him to the best CB since Primetime, yes, it should be.

Again, it's not even close.

And don't get ridiculous with the "highly respected" crap. We've seen this team get rid of those guys year after year after year.

luuked · Dec 10, 2014

mayoclinic said:
FWIW, I posted the following straw-man on the draft board earlier today

I love it. I would love to do just that.

The only note I have is that Chung is a player that I would like to have back but it is not a must have. I think his "subrole" might be the easiest to be replaced by a cheaper option (Tavon Wilson ? Ebner ?). But Ayers, Cassillas and Branch (if he continues his projectory) I really, really want to have back.

Add in a couple of specific upgrades in the draft around the trenches (O + D) and that is really all we need.

On the offense we will cut/restructure Amendola. Maybe replace Hooman with someone who has more upside. Hopefully get Vereen to come back. I am scared of having no flexback depth and no idea what to expect from White.

But honestly, unless we run into a couple of injuries like last year we are in good shape to run for a SB in the next 2 years as well. I am excited.

Tom meets Kaepernick · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
I think it's fine to think Revis is the top priority over mccourty, I can certainly see the reasoning behind feeling that way

What bothered me is the "without hesitation " comments and stuff, I feel that's disrespectful to Mccourty who has been a consumate professional since he came into the league and is a Patriot type guy through and through.

To suggest that you wouldn't have to even think about releasing him over someone else, regardless of who that player is, just rubs me the wrong way is all.

To each their own, but we should all be grateful for having McCourty over the last 4 years or so, he's been the only bright spot in that secondary for awhile and there are only 2 or so other players that have the range and ball skills that he does playing center field.

He's also towed the Patriot line and has been a model citizen and teammate. You can't ask for better than him, he represents everything you want in a Patriot player and should be shown respect, even if a mercenary is better than him talent wise

Yeah I'm gonna have to agree with Deus here. This post just comes across as whiny and annoying. Belichick has gotten rid of plenty of respected players before without batting an eye. Revis is a Hall of Fame, superstar caliber player. McCourty is an extremely talented player and top 3 FS in the league but WITHOUT HESITATION, I'm gonna have to go with Revis. Nobody is disrespecting Devin and everyone here knows what terror awaited the secondary if he went down in years prior. It is a damn message board. Who cares about respect on the internet?

Ice_Ice_Brady · Dec 10, 2014

The Patriots need to pay Revis (at all costs) and McCourty (unless he requires the moon.) Revis is a once-in-a-generation cornerback. They have made players like Mankins and Wilfork among the highest paid at their positions. Unfortunately, while they were both very good, neither of them had even close to the impact that Revis has on a game. In addition, injuries to both of those players proved to weaken but not devastate the team. Losing Revis makes this team a non-contender.

I see no reason why Revis is not worth $15-16M a year. I saw the argument that he is 30, but that intrigues me even more, considering he is still a shutdown corner even if not at his body's physical peak, and he has proven his professionalism, work ethic, and reliability over years. I would be more hesitant to shell out a huge contract to someone like Talib (inconsistent), Sherman (two years of greatness), or other younger players who could lose their confidence and "swagger" quite quickly. Champ Bailey and Charles Woodson each played at very high levels well into their 30s. Even if Revis loses a step, he is still a #1 corner without question.

As for McCourty, he is extremely valuable as well and he will cost money. I'm thinking he will need somewhere around $8-10M a year with a lot of guaranteed coin. I feel the same way about him- consummate professional, great community guy, heck of a leader who knows the Patriot way. Another one where I feel much more confident giving him a huge deal then, say, Talib. I always felt that with Talib, we were walking on egg shells and hoping his health, level of play, and attitude remain at optimum levels. We were willing to give him a big contract, so why not two players whose risks are much lower and rewards higher?

Marqui · Dec 10, 2014

luuked said:
The only note I have is that Chung is a player that I would like to have back but it is not a must have. I think his "subrole" might be the easiest to be replaced by a cheaper option (Tavon Wilson ? Ebner ?). But Ayers, Cassillas and Branch (if he continues his projectory) I really, really want to have back.

Sub role? Chung has been a near full time starter this year.

DaBronxPats14 · Dec 10, 2014

= BAD ASS!
Looks Better In Red/White/Blue/Gray Than Mucus Green.

JarOfMayo51 · Dec 10, 2014

Deus Irae said:
When comparing him to the best CB since Primetime, yes, it should be.

Again, it's not even close.

And don't get ridiculous with the "highly respected" crap. We've seen this team get rid of those guys year after year after year.

lol, really? they get rid of top talent coming out of their rookie deals that they drafted?

Thats entirely incorrect.. they let high paid guys go as they're nearing the end of their career, but not young studs that have only played on a rookie contract so far.. Those are the guys you try every year to draft, and when you finally land one you don't just let him walk away

Brady_to_Moss · Dec 10, 2014

i really think in order for the pats to lose him..he would have to be the one to not want to stay here for some reason...because i think we offer him a very very high $$ deal. Just look at how much better this D got and with TB getting older...we need a D that can sometimes take the slack off of him unlike years past

Oswlek · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
but not young studs that have only played on a rookie contract so far

Precedent sides with your contention. Going back through the drafts at the players who proved NFL caliber, I'll bold the ones who signed their second contract with another team (with guys who didn't finish their rookie contracts in red).

2000
Brady, Patrick Pass

2001
Seymour, Light

2002
Graham, Branch, Green, Givens

2003
Warren, Geno Wilson, Samuel, Koppen, Banta-Cain

2004
Wilfork, Watson

2005
Mankins, Hobbs, Kaczur, Sanders, Cassel

2006
Dave Thomas, Ghost, Mincey

2007
Meriweather

2008
Mayo, Slater

2009
Chung, Butler, Vollmer, Tate, Ohrnberger, Pryor, Edelman

33 players, 17 retained. Of the remaining 16, 7 didn't even finish their rookie contracts in NE, so they aren't comparable (for the purpose of this exercise, I won't count Branch in this group). So, of 26 players who finished their rookie contracts and who went on to prove NFL caliber, 17 were extended right away.

Of the remaining 9, Chung, Hobbs, TBC and Geno were middling players that aren't in McCourty's stratosphere. I'd be tempted to ignore them as well. That leaves Watson, Graham, Branch, Givens and Samuel as historic precedent for letting Devin get away, and even those can be quibbled with. Branch and Samuel were at odds with the team. Both Graham and Watson had proven to be one dimensional players. Givens, as a 7th rounder, had one chance to set himself up for life.

Barring us finding out that McCourty has been harboring some hostility over something or another for a few years, history suggests there is a very strong chance that McCourty will be retained.

kennyb · Dec 10, 2014

Revis probably 12m per year. Probably let McCourty walk. Good player and good guy but you can't pay everyone. Logan ryan Harmon etc can play that position too. What did they draft those guys for if they're just keeping these guys for top dollar.

Deus Irae · Dec 10, 2014

JarOfMayo51 said:
lol, really? they get rid of top talent coming out of their rookie deals that they drafted?

Now you're playing games. This is what you'd written

Not resigning a young man whos one of the top 3 free safeties in the league coming off his rookie deal, a team captain, a highly respected person both on and off the field and a pillar in the community should not be a decision that you make "without hesitation"

This was the part I responded to:

And don't get ridiculous with the "highly respected" crap.

ausbacker · Dec 10, 2014

kennyb said:
Revis probably 12m per year. Probably let McCourty walk. Good player and good guy but you can't pay everyone. Logan ryan Harmon etc can play that position too. What did they draft those guys for if they're just keeping these guys for top dollar.

This does not represent the market for any of the players you have suggested. There are varying degrees of skills and capabilities in the NFL. Revis and McCourty are the very best at their positions. The juniors you have named as replacements are not.

mayoclinic · Dec 10, 2014

kennyb said:
Revis probably 12m per year.

That's very funny. $14M/year would be a bargain. I'm guessing more like $15M/year AAV. Roughly halfway between Patrick Peterson and JJ Watt.

Darrelle Revis

PatsFans.com Supporter

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

PatsFans.com Supporter

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Hall of Fame Poster

Third String But Playing on Special Teams

I heard 10,000 whispering and nobody listening

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

In the Starting Line-Up

PatsFans.com Supporter

28-3....

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

In the Starting Line-Up

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

TB12

PatsFans.com Supporter

Similar threads