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Logan Mankins Traded


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Everyone learns at their own pace.

After my initial (somewhat emotional) reaction to the loss of Mankins, I'm starting to see the light. Call it, dawn breaks over marblehead.

As far as all trades and releases go in the B&B era, this is one that will probably stay on my Disagree list, which is about equal to the size of the Agree list.

Have you seen Logan Mankins play this year?

This was a brilliant trade. Nothing to disagree with. Mankins is done as a NFL linemen. He can't block for the life of him.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. Belichick hit it out of the park with this one. He traded an older player, with a huge contract, right before a huge decline in play for the player happened and he got two decent assets for him.

One of the best trades he's ever done IMO.
 
4 more sacks allowed today for the Bucs, vs. one of the worst defenses in the league.

11th most sacks in the league, 7 most QB hits in the league, 30th in rushing yards.

I get that not all of that falls on Mankins, but he has been brutal so far this season. If his poor play for us last season wasn't enough of an indicator that time was up for him, his play this year has been.

We should all be counting our blessings that Mankins refused to renegotiate his deal. Otherwise we'd be stuck with him and we'd be worse off because of it.
 
Have posted this somewhere before, so apologize if it is redundant...

Number of sacks allowed by the Pats 2013 after 9 games..... 26
Number of sacks allowed by the Pats 2014 after 9 games.... 15

'nuf said...

No doubt that the OL has certainly come around very nicely, but I truly believe that the improvement in receiving options/chemistry also contributes to the decline in sacks just as well.
 
It could have been a lot of variables, but if you look at a tangible number it makes sense, at least to me.. a small number maybe, but this is a significant difference.

In the absence of any other metrics, will stick with the facts as presented...

You aren't presenting facts. You gave an opinion that the number of sacks is down because the Pats dumped Logan Mankins. That's a preposterous connection to make when there are so many other factors involved.
 
I also think it has to do with Brady being far more mobile than he was last year.

There's another metric that's being ignored. Good point.
 
...and finding more receivers open. It's amazing that last year's offense accomplished as much as it did with Gronkowski rehabbing, Hernandez paying his debt to society, Amendola limping around with a torn groin, etc. Heck, a rookie who couldn't even make the team in his second year was an 8-game starter.

More metrics that were/are being ignored.
 
You aren't presenting facts. You gave an opinion that the number of sacks is down because the Pats dumped Logan Mankins. That's a preposterous connection to make when there are so many other factors involved.

That is not an accurate representation of his argument. He brought up the stats to demonstrate that even without Mankins, the line is protecting Brady better than they did last year. The metrics you claim are being ignored are actually implied; further evidence to demonstrate that an overpaid, worn down LG wasn't all that necessary.
 
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Have you seen Logan Mankins play this year?

This was a brilliant trade. Nothing to disagree with. Mankins is done as a NFL linemen. He can't block for the life of him.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. Belichick hit it out of the park with this one. He traded an older player, with a huge contract, right before a huge decline in play for the player happened and he got two decent assets for him.

One of the best trades he's ever done IMO.

It won't be the first time I've been wrong.

Why would I watch the Bucs play? Eeeewwwwww!!!

Btw, I heard the same things when the Pats let Richard Seymour go. It's amazing how quickly fans turn on players when they get traded.

Nobody can say with surety yet that this was a good move. If we lose in the playoffs again the same folks who are talking about what a great move it was to dump Mankins, will be coming up with other reasons why we fell short, even if the reason is poor OL play.
 
Btw, I heard the same things when the Pats let Richard Seymour go. It's amazing how quickly fans turn on players when they get traded.

I have a hard time believing you did. Seymour was terrific in 2008 and continued to be excellent in Oakland. Mankins has been average for years, is being paid more than Big Sey was at the time he was traded, and has been terrible in his new home.

Not saying there wasn't some amount of backlash as he went out the door, but the degrees aren't remotely similar.
 
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the people who still think this was a bad trade are the people who are waiting for the patriots to lose a big game to say "see i told you so!" even if the pats were to lose by 1 point in a 100 to 99 point game, they would still be like "see if we had mankins still we would have scored at least 101 points because in 2004 mankins was able to.." yadda yadda yadda
 
That is not an accurate representation of his argument. He brought up the stats to demonstrate that even without Mankins, the line is protecting Brady better than they did last year. The metrics you claim that are being ignored are implied, and actually further evidence to demonstrate that an overpaid, worn down LG wasn't all that necessary.


The only point I was trying to make was that the reason why sacks are down is not necessarily because of the absence of Logan Mankins, which is clearly what Darryl was implying.

This is a great time to end this discussion, at least for me.

'nuf said. :)
 
Nobody can say with surety yet that this was a good move. If we lose in the playoffs again the same folks who are talking about what a great move it was to dump Mankins, will be coming up with other reasons why we fell short, even if the reason is poor OL play.

I disagree. Mankins has shown in the Pats last 3 playoff losses that he could no longer carry the OL as an elite OG. In fact during those losses Mankins was more about being part of the problem than the solution. So whether the Pats OL holds up during the playoff run is irrelevant, when WITH Mankins it hasn't held up while he was here.

While I agree a case can be made that the Pats OL would hve been better had Mankins been with the team the first 4 games, but it would be harder to make the case they would have won any of the 2 losses had he been with them. As for the last 5 games, having Mankins makes no difference, except to the cap, the TE depth, and our draft capital.

BTW- I would be interested to see how football outsiders or even PFF ranks Mankins at this point of the season. And while I know these rating services have their inherent flaws, it might be informatiive to see where he stands among his peers. Since so few people actually see Buc's games, it might give us at least an indication of whether he's doing badly, well, or somewhere in the middle. The Buc's poor stats as a team may get you indicted, but I'd like to get an indication of what he's doing as an individual before I pronounce him "guilty" as charged.

BOTTOM LINE: after 10 weeks of perfect 20-20 hindsight, there can be no question that this trade was a complete home run, even if Mankins is playing well
 
It won't be the first time I've been wrong.

Why would I watch the Bucs play? Eeeewwwwww!!!

Btw, I heard the same things when the Pats let Richard Seymour go.

We all loved Big Sey. And as opposed to Mankins was still a very good player not in decline when he left. So that's a bad comparison.

All that being said, did the Raiders ever sniff the playoffs once they got him?

Meanwhile the Pats have not missed a playoffs in any season without him and went to a SB and 3 AFCCGs in a row. The train rolls on.
 
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Nobody can say with surety yet that this was a good move. If we lose in the playoffs again the same folks who are talking about what a great move it was to dump Mankins, will be coming up with other reasons why we fell short, even if the reason is poor OL play.
Mankins played poorly in the AFCCG last year...
 
When the trade first happened I had mixed emotions. Now looking at the trade you have to admit the Pats got the best of the deal. 1, They got cap relief they can use to sign their FA'S next year. 2, They got a 4th round pick. 3, Tim Wright has played well when called upon. Plus he also has the potential to develop into a good solid TE to compliment Gronk. 4. Mankins has reached his apex and is starting to decline, Giving these factors the Pats definitely got the best end of the trade.
 
It won't be the first time I've been wrong.

Why would I watch the Bucs play? Eeeewwwwww!!!

Btw, I heard the same things when the Pats let Richard Seymour go. It's amazing how quickly fans turn on players when they get traded.

Nobody can say with surety yet that this was a good move. If we lose in the playoffs again the same folks who are talking about what a great move it was to dump Mankins, will be coming up with other reasons why we fell short, even if the reason is poor OL play.

I am tired of this Mankins discussion, but I will jump in on these points.

Seymour had a good year after he left, but he did drop off after that. The Pats were smart not to give him a top tier contract he was looking for and actually got from Oakland because he never lived up to it. And if the Pats kept Seymour, it was likely they would have had to give up Wilfork. They couldn't pay them both top tier d-line money. Seymour had a few good years in Oakland, but he never played up to the contract he was looking for. Different situation.

And just because people are saying that Mankins isn't playing well in Tampa doesn't mean people are turning on him. So far he hasn't. Is it all his fault, probably not since the Bucs suck so bad. But if you go to the Bucs message boards and people are trashing him. So it isn't just Pats' fans.
 
And if the Pats kept Seymour, it was likely they would have had to give up Wilfork.

Keeping Seymour = No Wilfork and no Solder. And that assumes Big Sey even wanted to stay after 2009, which is highly debatable. It wasn't the trade that created the bad blood, that had been percolating for years.

Had 2009 been more like 2011, that trade would have been harder to swallow. But since 2009 was so lousy, moving Seymour was definitely the right move in hindsight.
 
You know, the Seymour references bring home just how hard it is to pin down the impact of a major trade, even with the benefit of hindsight. What if the Patriots hadn't traded Seymour? Let's try to figure out what would have been different...

First off, what they received was a 1st-round pick, which they used on Nate Solder, and cap savings, which is generally agreed to have gone toward re-signing Vince Wilfork to a long-term deal. If they had chosen to extend Seymour instead of Wilfork, they would have been in need of both a left tackle and a NT/DT, without the benefit of the extra first-round pick.

In that situation, could they have afforded the luxury of trading their own first (#28 overall) to New Orleans -- a trade that ultimately turned into Chandler Jones and Shane Vereen? Likely not. My bet is that the pick would have been an OT, since NT was a very weak position at that point in the draft. (3-4 DE was much stronger, but you just kept Seymour over Wilfork, remember?) Meanwhile 2 highly regarded options remained at OT in Gabe Carimi and Derek Sherrod. Both, in fact, were selected before the end of the first round..and neither lasted to the end of their rookie contracts.

So now you find yourself with Seymour but not Wilfork, Jones, or Vereen, and with an execrable starting LT. Ouch. That trade's sure looking good!

But maybe it was totally different. Maybe you didn't re-sign Seymour OR Wilfork after the season, and poured the money into FA Jordan Gross at LT. Then you hit the jackpot by drafting Muhammad Wilkerson in the 1st to replace Seymour, then Jurrell Casey in the 3rd to replace Wilfork. Amazing! But oops, now you don't have Steven Ridley or Shane Vereen. (Or Chandler Jones later, of course.) So let's pencil in RB Jacquizz Rodgers in the 5th in place of Marcus Cannon, and...

Quick now, what was the impact of trading Richard Seymour?
 
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You know, the Seymour references bring home just how hard it is to pin down the impact of a major trade, even with the benefit of hindsight. What if the Patriots hadn't traded Seymour? Let's try to figure out what would have been different...

First off, what they received was a 1st-round pick, which they used on Nate Solder, and cap savings, which is generally agreed to have gone toward re-signing Vince Wilfork to a long-term deal. If they had chosen to extend Seymour instead of Wilfork, they would have been in need of both a left tackle and a NT/DT, without the benefit of the extra first-round pick.

In that situation, could they have afforded the luxury of trading their own first (#28 overall) to New Orleans -- a trade that ultimately turned into Chandler Jones and Shane Vereen? Likely not. My bet is that the pick would have been an OT, since NT was a very weak position at that point in the draft. (3-4 DE was much stronger, but you just kept Seymour over Wilfork, remember?) Meanwhile 2 highly regarded options remained at OT in Gabe Carimi and Derek Sherrod. Both, in fact, were selected before the end of the first round..and neither lasted to the end of their rookie contracts.

So now you find yourself with Seymour but not Wilfork, Jones, or Vereen, and with an execrable starting LT. Ouch. That trade's sure looking good!

But maybe it was totally different. Maybe you didn't re-sign Seymour OR Wilfork after the season, and poured the money into FA Jordan Gross at LT. Then you hit the jackpot by drafting Muhammad Wilkerson in the 1st to replace Seymour, then up Jurrell Casey in the 3rd to replace Wilfork. Amazing! But oops, now you don't have Steven Ridley or Shane Vereen. (Or Chandler Jones later, of course.) So let's pencil in RB Jacquizz Rodgers in the 5th in place of Marcus Cannon, and...

Quick now, what was the impact of trading Richard Seymour?

There's certainly a domino effect from such a major move, but we don't know how it would have worked out. The Pats might have won the SB in 2010. They might have drafted Muhammad Wilkerson, and then taken an OL at #33 instead of Ras-I Dowling, and maybe without Dowling they would have drafted Richard Sherman later on. They might have stayed with a pure 3-4 with Wilkerson and Seymour, and drafted Justin Houston as a 3-4 OLB.

Clouded the future is. Hard to see. But most certainly it would have turned out quite differently.
 
Clouded the future is. Hard to see. But most certainly it would have turned out quite differently.

Yep. And even with Mankins -- we know the Pats wanted Tim Wright. If they hadn't been willing to part with Mankins, maybe they would have given a draft pick instead. And maybe giving up that pick meant they didn't trade for Akeem Ayers. And maybe....
 
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