No one is talking about

PATS16N0 said:

Revis didn't get a lot of mentions after the first few Bronco possessions because Peyton was too scared to even look in his direction.

For having such almighty Godlike powers (except when it rains, snows, there's a slight breeze, chilly weather, during noise, or against good defenses), Princess Peyton was sticking with his first read Geno Smith style a lot of that game.

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Yep. For the first time in a great while, in Revis, Browner, Ryan, Butler and Arrington, the Pats have 4 guys who actually have a chance to stay/impede a receiver's ability to get open from 0 to 3 seconds.

supafly said:

That's kind of what I thought as well, although the fact that his arm was wrapped around the waist may lead to a 50/50 sort of call. I think it would have helped had his arm simply been on the back, instead.

Either way, I think it was a very shaky call, especially based on the specific circumstances at the time. That should've been a no call IMO.

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I actually agreed with the call when it happened live. It looked like Browner climbed Thomas's back. It was only when I saw the replay on the big screen that I saw that it was good coverage. I can't blame the ref if even my rose-colored glasses saw DPI.

supafly said:

That's kind of what I thought as well, although the fact that his arm was wrapped around the waist may lead to a 50/50 sort of call. I think it would have helped had his arm simply been on the back, instead.

Either way, I think it was a very shaky call, especially based on the specific circumstances at the time. That should've been a no call IMO.

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Also note in the rule that someone quoted it says if there is doubt don't call it. That is not happening.

mayoclinic said:

Isn't that just a zone blitz?

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No. A zone blitz is blitizing and playing zone behind it. A component of a zone blitz is to drop a DL into the short zone.
In this case, we played 2 DTs and 4 LBs and sent 2 of the LBs on every play, but varied which 2.
I suppose you could call it a blitz but as Bruschi points out traditionally a blitz is when you rush more than 4.
We are caught in semantics vs impact.

AndyJohnson said:

We are caught in semantics vs impact.

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Yes.

"Blitz" or not, the gameplan was clear. Pressure up the middle.




Only 3 rushers on this play, with Ayers stunting through the middle




On Ninkovich's INT, Collins shoots through the A Gap. Patricia called the perfect play here, even the under route was cut off by Hightower.






Those are just a couple gifs. Their were a few other plays where Collins came rushing through the middle and Peyton had to throw the ball away early.

Ayers is turning out to be a steal BTW.

Collins is having a huge impact, even if the numbers dont always show it.

MrNathanDrake said:

Collins is having a huge impact, even if the numbers dont always show it.

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I found this interesting:

Among the many startling revelations of Sunday's Broncos-Patriots game, where New England methodically dismantled the defending AFC Champions, was the simple observation that Darrelle Revis is not the most important person in Bill Belichick's defense. No, it's not an attempt to say that somehow Revis has "lost it," and that his offseason signing was a waste (far from it, in fact). Merely, the identification of Revis's proper place in the Patriots pecking order is chalked up to another player's rapid maturation as a world class professional. Jamie Collins, who spent most of Sunday's game buzzing in and around the view of your television screen, is officially the most valuable piece in the Patriots defense.

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http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/...not-the-most-important-defensive-player-gifs/

I doubt I'd go that far, and I'm a huge Collins fan. But he was certainly an impact play on Sunday. Next up: the Colts, against whom Collins had probably his best game ever as pro.

AndyJohnson said:

No. A zone blitz is blitizing and playing zone behind it. A component of a zone blitz is to drop a DL into the short zone.
In this case, we played 2 DTs and 4 LBs and sent 2 of the LBs on every play, but varied which 2.
I suppose you could call it a blitz but as Bruschi points out traditionally a blitz is when you rush more than 4.
We are caught in semantics vs impact.

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Disagree - Playing zone has nothing to do with it, although this occurs more often than not. It's as first poster said (and defined below), as usually indicated by dropping a rusher into coverage, and pushing a coverage guy into the rush. This, and from comments by Bruschi and others on the game, the OL drop / LB rush seen here was a variation of the Zone Blitz, but without a true blitz, because in the end, NE often still only rushed a total of 4 players which is not enough rushers to be defined as a true "blitz" by the classical definition. Here, instead it was implemented for deception and confusion, but strong rushing pressure was also a by-product. Not sure it has a name. Maybe the "Belichick Zone Rush" perhaps?

WIKI
The zone blitz is a common method of defensive pressure applied in American football, usually at the collegiate and professional levels. It exists in nearly limitless permutations, all of which share the common theme of confusing the offensive line by dropping pass-rushers into coverage, while at the same time blitzing players who would usually cover receivers.

mayoclinic said:

I found this interesting:



http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/...not-the-most-important-defensive-player-gifs/

I doubt I'd go that far, and I'm a huge Collins fan. But he was certainly an impact play on Sunday. Next up: the Colts, against whom Collins had probably his best game ever as pro.

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Agreed. I keep restraining my excitement over this kid. He strikes me as the second-coming of Roman Phifer. This year he'll pick up a sack or two, maybe another INT, force another fumble and net 100 tackles. In my book, that is a Pro-Bowl year for a LB yet my gut tells he is just rounding into form. Keep in mind hes only had 16 starts.

AndyJohnson said:

No. A zone blitz is blitizing and playing zone behind it. A component of a zone blitz is to drop a DL into the short zone.
In this case, we played 2 DTs and 4 LBs and sent 2 of the LBs on every play, but varied which 2.
I suppose you could call it a blitz but as Bruschi points out traditionally a blitz is when you rush more than 4.
We are caught in semantics vs impact.

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Gee, Payton Manning sure seemed to think it was a zone blitz:

"It was a zone blitz," Manning said. "He was in the right place at the right time. I give him credit. I can't make that throw. It was bad, bad football by me."

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http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/c...-manning-struggles-against-bill-belichiks-new

I suppose it depends to a large extent on whether you call what the Pats ran a 2-4-5 or a 4-2-5. Tedy Bruschi seemed to think the latter:

Rob (Westwood): Tedy-Can this "new look" 2-4-5 defense be successful against other teams going forward? If it confused Manning, I would guess that lesser QB's would fare the same or worse.

Tedy: First, it's more of a 4-2-5. I usually don't use the numbers like that, but the 2-4-5 would indicate that it's a two-man front. I would call it more of a 4-2-5 to entertain the number designation because there are four down linemen, two linebackers off the line, and five defensive backs. One of those five defensive backs can come down and play in the box, and there is so much flexibility with that it's hard to designate it with a number. When the offense comes up to the line, they want to distinguish who are the four down linemen. To your question, this can change week to week based on teams coming out in more traditional formations (that would be matched with more of a 4-3-4 grouping based on your numbers).

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http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51310

Then there's Greg Cosell:

The Patriots’ first interception off Peyton Manning was due to a great disguise.

Before the snap, the Patriots showed man free blitz with the “Double ‘A’ Gap” alignment, with linebackers Dont’a Hightower and Jamie Collins in the “A” gaps. Both edge rushers, Akeem Ayers and Ninkovich, were on the line of scrimmage. It was clearly a blitz alert. The “A” gap blitz ate up Hillman and removed him as a receiver. Manning expected cornerback Darrelle Revis to run with Emmanuel Sanders, who was lined up wide to the right as the “x iso.” That’s part of the “man free” the Patriots showed. He expected Ninkovich to rush. But at the snap it became “Cover 3” zone behind a four-man rush. Revis dropped into the outside third and Ninkovich dropped into his zone.

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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...-the-patriots-beat-the-broncos-191417472.html

The Pats showed full blitz, but they switched to a zone blitz combined with Cover 3, with Nink dropping into Revis' vacated zone. Not that complicated, but effective.

I don't really care much what one calls it. It's sophisticated enough personnel usage that it defies conventional labelling, and falls into the realm of "semantics", to use your original term. For years I've dreamed of a 4-2-5 that could morph seamlessly into into a 2-4-5 and disguise personnel usage. Whatever you call it, it was darn creative use of personnel.

pdangle said:

Disagree - Playing zone has nothing to do with it, although this occurs more often than not. It's as first poster said (and defined below), as usually indicated by dropping a rusher into coverage, and pushing a coverage guy into the rush. This, and from comments by Bruschi and others on the game, the OL drop / LB rush seen here was a variation of the Zone Blitz, but without a true blitz, because in the end, NE often still only rushed a total of 4 players which is not enough rushers to be defined as a true "blitz" by the classical definition. Here, instead it was implemented for deception and confusion, but strong rushing pressure was also a by-product. Not sure it has a name. Maybe the "Belichick Zone Rush" perhaps?

WIKI
The zone blitz is a common method of defensive pressure applied in American football, usually at the collegiate and professional levels. It exists in nearly limitless permutations, all of which share the common theme of confusing the offensive line by dropping pass-rushers into coverage, while at the same time blitzing players who would usually cover receivers.

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No. Its called a zone blitz because you play zone coverage behind the blitz.

mayoclinic said:

Gee, Payton Manning sure seemed to think it was a zone blitz:



http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/c...-manning-struggles-against-bill-belichiks-new

.

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That play was, because they blitzed and dropped into a zone behind it.
Again, we are talking semantics.

Revis needs to be locked up for years and years...if it doesnt happen i will be a bit sad. And maybe thow things

mayoclinic said:

I found this interesting:



http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2014/...not-the-most-important-defensive-player-gifs/

I doubt I'd go that far, and I'm a huge Collins fan. But he was certainly an impact play on Sunday. Next up: the Colts, against whom Collins had probably his best game ever as pro.

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This would be good if it said Hightower where it says Collins. Collins is excellent in coverage and really equalizes a mismatch waiting to happen, but HT has been the catalyst for this defense, doing everything you could ask a LB to do and doing it very well.

AndyJohnson said:

This would be good if it said Hightower where it says Collins. Collins is excellent in coverage and really equalizes a mismatch waiting to happen, but HT has been the catalyst for this defense, doing everything you could ask a LB to do and doing it very well.

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I agree that so far this season Hightower has been better than Collins. I'm not sure that was the case on Sunday against Denver, so if Collins is starting to step his game up it's a good thing.

mayoclinic said:

I agree that so far this season Hightower has been better than Collins. I'm not sure that was the case on Sunday against Denver, so if Collins is starting to step his game up it's a good thing.

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HT has been outstanding. Keep in mind he has a full year more in a complicated system than Collins.

mayoclinic said:

I agree that so far this season Hightower has been better than Collins. I'm not sure that was the case on Sunday against Denver, so if Collins is starting to step his game up it's a good thing.

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Both played very well Sunday. Collins was more in the spotlight because he was in man coverage A LOT, and was on RBS, TEs and even WRs, and Manning targetted him as a mismatch. Turned out to be a bad plan by Manning.
Collins can cover like only a few NFL LBs. Hightower does it all.

To the point of the comments you inserted, I think that the versatility of and quality of HTs play really does drive a lot of the schemes BB cooks up.

robertweathers said:

HT has been outstanding. Keep in mind he has a full year more in a complicated system than Collins.

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Its not an insult to Collins to say HT is better.
HT has played at an all-pro level this year.

AndyJohnson said:

Its not an insult to Collins to say HT is better.
HT has played at an all-pro level this year.

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Not at all. HT has been playing better no question.

I'm not at the point to say that HT will always be better.

robertweathers said:

Not at all. HT has been playing better no question.

I'm not at the point to say that HT will always be better.

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I'm never one to exaggerate how good Patriot players are. In my view HT has been better at LB all around so far this year than anyone we have had at the position in a number of years, and that includes Mayo. Yes they are different players, but HT has been dominant at everything he does this year, aside from the time he missed with injuries.

As usual with defensive calls/alignments, the meaning of zone blitzing can have different interpretations based on a lot of things. Zone blitzing in a 3-4 looks different (only on paper) than zone blitzing in a 4-3 due to tweener OLB/DL type players.

For example, the Steelers were known for using a zone blitzing scheme because they would drop James Harrison into coverage occasionally and blitz Timmons/Foote. The Steelers were certainly not dropping "true" defensive linemen such as Brett Keisel or Casey Hampton into coverage though! While James Harrison is a "LB" in a 3-4, in actuality he's more a DL. The same goes for a guy like Ninkovich, which is why the Manning INT did in fact happen on a zone blitz.