Let's talk about the lines: OFFENSE

Ivan · Jul 15, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Not cool ivan. I really liked Quinn in 2011. I felt he was the best playet in that whole draft. Carl Nicks is very realistic to trade for. Underrated/coming back from injury means bargain.

Very cool, Quinn and Suh for Mallett and a late pick will give us the immortalizer defense and castrate opposing QB's and leave them in the fetal position. With Willis and Bowman and Mayo and Collins playing the dime roverback role the confusion will be preeminent as Ryan and Dennard become All pro's.

Ivan · Jul 15, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
I know its just minicamp but come on cut some slack here that's all the football play going on til preseason. We could say he mauled a near 300lb bouncer at the club last week and rag dolled him then jarred him backwards with so much thrust he fell through a table. He is going get at least 16 sacks this year. A near 300 lb bouncer looked peerless and you could see the look on his face that huge bouncer knew he was overwhelmed and dominated.then it took 2 more nearly 300 lb bouncers to contain our second round draft selection. He is going to be a beast as a rookie

Quoted for posterity..............

PatsWickedPissah · Jul 15, 2014

Joker would you perform a public service by translating the Walls of Text into concise 2-3 sentence summaries for us slackers?

Ring 6 · Jul 16, 2014

Brady6 said:
I am not that worried about my creditability, Zach Mettenberger who was talked about as a first or second round pick leading up to the draft was taken the pick before Halapio, our #30 pick in the sixth round had a pre-draft grade of round 3-4, as did many others taken in the sixth and seventh round.

You should be.
Mettenberger was not a first or second rounder with or without the injury.
By your definition the grading system you use sucks if the players they slotted in the 3rd or 4th went in the 6th.

Ring 6 · Jul 16, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Coaches weren't just encouraged by what they saw in mini camp they were impressed borderline shocked at the power and natural comfort HALAPIO displayed. He didn't look like a rookie. Players fall through the cracks and are underrated all the time. Carl Nicks the most dominant guard in the NFL was a round5 pick. OLineman fall through the cracks more than other positions. The dude played weigh a torn pec. Players sit out for pulled pec muscles. For starters the injury pain kept him from recoiling his punch which is very powerful. At this point he is far ahead of Stork who felt overwhelmed to the point he couldn't hike the football as part of his various other mental errors. Ironic for a guy drafted even though he lacked some physical power/skill due to his flawless fundamentals and technical skills. HALAPIO practiced at center for Florida and they were confident he could play if necessary. They actually considered moving him to center for a while at least last season when their center struggled for a stretch including routinely rag dolled by Tim Jernigan. But the center rebounded somewhat and there wasn't anybody to replace Halapio at guard. Why would they expose him to the practice squad. They were very impressed in mini camp. Consider HALAPIO had moved to center and displayed his power to man up guards. He could have been a Second rounder or higher especially if he played center and was healthy. Considering a torn pec Halapio impressed many scouts.

You are basing your opinion on how you guess the coaches felt about him in shorts without any contact? How do you show power without contact and what exactly is natural comfort??
He could have been a second rounder based on what a couple hundred players getting suspended before the draft?

RayClay · Jul 16, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Many NFL centers were college guards. Halapio played center in high school and played center for whole practices at Florida in case he was ever needed there and coaches were very impressed. Scouts dig at these types of things and that's why many scouts said he is a candidate to convert to center and that it probably his best position because he is powerful and tenacious but is limited on agility. Which makes him susceptible to quick penetrators which won't be nearly as much a problem at center as it would be at guard. So many scouts see him as a better center where his power and ability to handle big NTs without any help is going to be a HUGE WEAPON!

AS for Stork I would love to see him excel. But his ability to handle power is a huge question mark. Many centers stronger than himself who were elite center prospects were busts due to strength deficiency. Peter Konz is an example and he was more dominant in college than Stork. Stork excelled due to being a technician and playing with great awareness, fundamentals,and making great line calls of who to block and double up. Simply put,he played intelligently and never made mental errors. That's what won him an award and got him drafted, Not dominating which is what you like to see because its college level. Stork being known for flawless technical play uncharacteristically made many mistakes at minicamp. Reports out of camp feared his mistakes were due to his lack of power and being overwhelmed and the NFL being to big for him. Hopefully he can finish his growing into his frame and get stronger. But with us having trouble last season up the middle because of our technicians struggling with power, the team wants to move on to a more power driven OLine.

Halapio is out of the box with batteries included in that respect. While he could struggle with quickness at guard, he is a weapon at center because teams expect a big NT/DT to occupy multiple blockers to free up defensive pass rushers and playmakers. Halapio can block out widebody NTs by himself and wreck a defensive scheme. So far Stork can't do that as can't Wendell or Connolly.

So far? Was there a secret camp/preseason we don't know about?

patfanken · Jul 16, 2014

Ivan said:
Do we even know where those numbers come from?

They come from NFL.com If you divide the 3i7 times PFF credited Wendell with a sack, hit, or hurry by the 628 total times Brady dropped back.

Even if Wendell was guilty of allowing 37 "disruptions", what about the 591 OTHER times they deemed him successful? Just wondering

Brady6 · Jul 16, 2014

AndyJohnson said:
You should be.
Mettenberger was not a first or second rounder with or without the injury.
By your definition the grading system you use sucks if the players they slotted in the 3rd or 4th went in the 6th.

Thanks for the advice. Have a nice day...

Ring 6 · Jul 16, 2014

Brady6 said:
Thanks for the advice. Have a nice day...

Any time. You too.

Ivan · Jul 16, 2014

patfanken said:
They come from NFL.com If you divide the 3i7 times PFF credited Wendell with a sack, hit, or hurry by the 628 total times Brady dropped back.

Even if Wendell was guilty of allowing 37 "disruptions", what about the 591 OTHER times they deemed him successful? Just wondering

Lemme guess, you were the one who cited NFL.Com and someone else used the most worthless site on the internet?

Sciz · Jul 16, 2014

PatFanCraig said:
Not cool ivan. I really liked Quinn in 2011. I felt he was the best playet in that whole draft. Carl Nicks is very realistic to trade for. Underrated/coming back from injury means bargain.

And played 9 of the last 32 games/not practicing during OTAs/permanent nerve damage means there's a significant chance he's never remotely the same player ever again. Not to mention, the Pats can't even fit his salary under the cap right now.

Brady6 · Jul 16, 2014

patfanken said:
Or in other words over 95% of the times Tom Brady dropped back to pass, he was unsacked, unhiit or unhurried because of the efforts of Wendell, and Connolly.

And off course that makes the very large assumption that the amateur grader who rated those players knew enough of the Pats line calls and adjustments to correctly assign blame or even determine if Brady was hurried or not. I can only hope that you are graded equally as subjectively and as held at as high a level of success in your life.

When did you become such an angry poster Ken? I used to like reading what you wrote down but lately you are snippy as hell.

I gave you the disruption #s and said I am not sure if it was Wendell and Connolly being disasters or a problem with the offense that inflated those numbers, the numbers are what they are though, and 37 disruptions allowed by a center is an absurd amount of disruptions. I also watched the games, and Wendell’s struggles were very clear, he was routinely overpowered, Connolly was not as evident to the eye.

For the record in my line of work errors in job performance result in death in most cases.

Brady6 · Jul 16, 2014

Ivan said:
Lemme guess, you were the one who cited NFL.Com and someone else used the most worthless site on the internet?

Is there another site that provides stats for OL other than PFF?

mgteich · Jul 16, 2014

I strongly agree. Draftek's consensus had Hilapio being picked in the 6th, 10 spots earlier than when we picked him. I googled and found a colt site. They had him 4-6th round.

Hilapio seems to have been a good pick in the 6th and good value. He has looked OK so far.
========

As a side issue, we should distinguish between round value and round prediction. For example, in a given year, weak at the top, there may be only 20 players with first round value. Howere it would be foolish to predict only 20 players to be drafted in the first round.

There is a bit of that this year. Believing that this was a very deep draft, some put 3rd round and 4th round values on a disproportionately high number of players. Obviously, many of these players were picked later, AS EXPECTED.
==

IMHO, this doesn't affect Hilapio much. Many had Hilapio as a value in the 6th (perhaps a 5th round value). Some believed that he might be better, if he returned to his pre-injury form. So, he was deemed to be worth the risk. He has upside talent and has had injuries. Sure, he might have been drafted in the 5th, but the 6th doesn't seem unreasonable.
==

MY BOTTOM LINE

This discussion of Hilapio seems silly. Almost all of us consider him a fine prospect in the 6h. Projecting him as our starting center is beyond the pale. He is a prospect to be our backup RG.

The two people thinking him a lock are those who consider all draftees locks (Reiss and Brady6). Brady6 didn't even like the pick at the time. But Brady6 is consistent. He believes in youth over experience, especially experienced players over 30. I have the opposite view, almost always preferring to have veterans, especially as backups.

6th draftees are neither locks nor players who cannot pass waivers. 6th rounders pass waivers all the time. That being said, Hialpio seems to have a fine chance at making the roster.

AndyJohnson said:
By your definition the grading system you use sucks if the players they slotted in the 3rd or 4th went in the 6th.

RayClay · Jul 16, 2014

Sciz said:
And played 9 of the last 32 games/not practicing during OTAs/permanent nerve damage means there's a significant chance he's never remotely the same player ever again. Not to mention, the Pats can't even fit his salary under the cap right now.

Wow. I wish the Pats had realized that and drafted some linemen. Oh wait.

So We're going to get Halaipo started in the NFL by switching him to center so he can learn during the season. Switch the tackles to guards, the guards to tackles and play Stork as the move tight end.

Sound right so far?

RayClay · Jul 16, 2014

Brady6 said:
Is there another site that provides stats for OL other than PFF?

Probably a reason for that, eh?

Brady6 · Jul 16, 2014

RayClay said:
Probably a reason for that, eh?

I am not sure, most sites like ESPN and NFL.com provide basic stats there are not any basic stats other than games played and games started for OL.

The formula used to determine QB disruptions is the same for all OL so Wendell having more than his peers is indicative of his play in my opinion.

RayClay · Jul 16, 2014

Brady6 said:
I'm not sure but the formula to determine the # of disruptions is the same for all OL. Wendell allowed the most of any OC.

It's the formula a bunch of soccer players from England came up with, right?

Brady6 · Jul 16, 2014

RayClay said:
It's the formula a bunch of soccer players from England came up with, right?

I am not sure if they play soccer. I still do not think it matters if you put 32 OCs numbers into a formula and Wendell’s show the most disruptions of that group it is accurate in function.

RayClay · Jul 16, 2014

Brady6 said:
I am not sure, most sites like ESPN and NFL.com provide basic stats there are not any basic stats other than games played and games started for OL.

The formula used to determine QB disruptions is the same for all OL so Wendell having more than his peers is indicative of his play in my opinion.

We're assuming they know the responsibilities of each lineman on a play and aren't just charging one for a "disruption" because he picked up the closest man due to one of the other lineman blowing his assignment, thereby letting a free man in.

From what I've seen, the guy closest to the free man is usually covering for a blown assignment elsewhere, so I'm not sure i'd trust some tea sippers to decide who is at fault on a play.

Let's talk about the lines: OFFENSE

Hall of Fame Poster

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

Pro Bowl Player

PatsFans.com Supporter

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

Pro Bowl Player

Pro Bowl Player

PatsFans.com Veteran

Hall of Fame Poster

Hall of Fame Poster

Pro Bowl Player

Hall of Fame Poster

Pro Bowl Player

Hall of Fame Poster

Similar threads