How Much Optimism Do You Have Over This Defense?

Deus Irae said:

First, you're now setting up a false requirement. Second, you just mentioned one example that works even with your massaged position.

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So basically you have no other examples, which confirms my point.

Third, if you don't think that guys like Jay Ratliff getting pressure from the IOL, or a Tedy Bruschi Blitz up the middle, is part of a pass rush, you're completely clueless on how a pass rush works.

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Never said that, so ok...

FreeTedWilliams said:

Until they find a consistent pass rush, NONE!

Let's face it, they got toasted by Peyton, granted they had a inordinate amount of injuries last year, the losses of Kelly, Mayo, and Vince are huge, but none of them are pass rushers!

I like Jones, Hightower to DE is an interesting idea, worth a shot. But still the Pats lack a truly dominate pass rusher, one that HAS TO BE accounted for and one that leaves others with one on one blocking. Regardless of how good you are in the secondary, you can't cover anyone for more than a few seconds, then they are going to get free. We have terrible safety play! With WIlfork, Kelly and Mayo all back, the defense against the run should improve greatly, however I think the loss of Spikes might off-set those gains.

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There isnt a front 4 that ever played that would have put much pressure on Manning in that game because he had open receivers and was getting rid of the ball before anyone had a chance to get to him.
A good pass rush is not a DE singlehandledly being unblockable and getting to the QB 100% of the pass plays like you seem to think. It is a combination of coverage and rush, and all 11 players on the field are part of its success.
The best edge rushers in the league get 1 sack a game. In fact they actually get them in bunches with many games where they have none, particularly vs a QB who gets the ball out quickly.
Manning was sacked 19 times in 19 games last year.

Marqui said:

So basically you have no other examples, which confirms my point.

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No, basically, you'd already supplied an example. You could have chosen the Jets in pretty much any season Ryan's been there for your example, by the way. You could also have pointed to teams like the current version of the Bengals, with Geno Atkins, the Cowboys with Jay Ratliff at NT, and/or many others. You could have looked to the New York Sack Exchange or the Purple People Eaters, or many others, if you'd chosen to look back further in to NFL history than last season.

Marqui said:

Never said that, so ok...

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Yeah, that's pretty much what you did. You just phrased it a bit more openly:

Only a fan of a team with weak edge rushing would say "the pass rush is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge". It actually isn't a lot more than that.

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Deus Irae said:

You could have chosen the Jets in pretty much any season Ryan's been there for your example, by the way.

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Agree to disagree I guess. Their pass rush and defense hasn't been anything special in years.

You could also have pointed to teams like the current version of the Bengals, with Geno Atkins, the Cowboys with Jay Ratliff at NT, and/or many others.

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Huh? Those teams had good edge rushers in Ware, Spencer, Johnson, and Dunlap.

Yeah, that's pretty much what you did. You just phrased it a bit more openly:

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Did you also see the part where I said interior pressure and blitz pressure is fantastic and is a fraction of overall pass rush which gives context to my previous sentence? No...of course not.

Marqui said:

]Agree to disagree I guess. Their pass rush and defense hasn't been anything special in years.

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The D looked really good last year, almost elite until this:

Week 4, Falcons:
DL Vince Wilfork (torn Achilles, injured reserve)

Week 5, Bengals:
DT Tommy Kelly (knee, injured reserve)

Week 6, Saints:
LB Jerod Mayo (torn pectoral, injured reserve)
CB Aqib Talib (hip, 3 games)

And we all know the rest. Considering they went to the AFCCG with Brady not even having a elite year, and lost to a Stacked Broncos team looking for Revenge at Home, I have pretty high hopes for this unit considering they have clear upgrades at CB and DE.

Bruins29 said:

I have pretty high hopes for this unit considering they have clear upgrades at CB and DE.

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They have clear upgrades at DE?

Marqui said:

Agree to disagree I guess. Their pass rush and defense hasn't been anything special in years.

Huh? Those teams had good edge rushers in Ware, Spencer, Johnson, and Dunlap.

Did you also see the part where I said interior pressure and blitz pressure is fantastic and is a fraction of overall pass rush which gives context to my previous sentence? No...of course not.

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I saw your whole post. It's not my fault, nor is it the fault of anyone but you, that you made a poor claim. You could have simply acknowledged that, tidied up your point, and gone from there. Instead you chose to double down on a lousy claim and go with the silliness of trying to cover that claim by saying "See, they had an outside pass rusher, too!" as if that's any sort of rebuttal, when it's clearly not.

Also, Johnson? Seriously? With Atkins having an injury shortened year last season, Johnson had a whopping 3.5 sacks. He's had 3.5 sacks or fewer in 3 of his 5 NFL seasons, despite never missing a game. Meanwhile, Atkins has led the Bengals in sacks in 2 of the past 3 seasons, and finished only 1.5 sacks behind the team leaders this season, despite missing 6 games due to injury.

Marqui said:

They have clear upgrades at DE?

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Well, They now have Smith and with a Healthy Kelly and Wilfork with perhaps Easley/Armstead factoring in they can slide VW over.

mmasterkillah said:

I'm cautiously optimistic.

I usually try to scout/project players and teams based on ceilings and floors, assuming everyone is healthy.

If Collins, Chandler Jones and a couple of the other youngsters (Ryan, Harmon, DT?) can keep improving, we could be in the Seahawks/49ers discussion by season's end... which is all I'm worried about.

I'm still concerned about our backups at MLB, but I wouldn't rule out another acquisiton.

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I am very optimistic about this defense, assuming they aren't ravaged by key injuries. Essentially they have added: Wilfork, Kelly, Armstead, Easley, Anderson, Revis, and Browner, while losing Talib and Spikes. They also have some younger guys that should only improve from last year: Harmon, Ryan, Jones, Collins, Siliga, Dennard, Hightower.

Yes, I am very optimistic. They have the pieces to be the best defense this team has seen since the 03-04 seasons.

Deus Irae said:

I saw your whole post. It's not my fault, nor is it the fault of anyone but you, that you made a poor claim. You could have simply acknowledged that, tidied up your point, and gone from there. Instead you chose to double down on a lousy claim and go with the silliness of trying to cover that claim by saying "See, they had an outside pass rusher, too!" as if that's any sort of rebuttal, when it's clearly not.

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Not really sure what you're going on about here but I stand by everything I said. There's other aspects to pass rush than edge rushers but not a lot more. Interior pressure and blitzing is just complimentary to a good overall pass rush. If you don't have good edge rushing, you're not going to have a good overall pass rush is what my point is.

Also, Johnson? Seriously? With Atkins having an injury shortened year last season, Johnson had a whopping 3.5 sacks. He's had 3.5 sacks or fewer in 3 of his 5 NFL seasons, despite never missing a game.

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Oh so you're one of those "sacks are everything" guys. Micheal Johnson is a good pass rusher and gets a lot of pressure, which is why he makes the amount money he makes.

I agree with Deus on this one.. minus the condescending hostility.

Marqui said:

Not really sure what you're going on about here but I stand by everything I said. There's other aspects to pass rush than edge rushers but not a lot more. Interior pressure and blitzing is just complimentary to a good overall pass rush. If you don't have good edge rushing, you're not going to have a good overall pass rush is what my point is.

Oh so you're one of those "sacks are everything" guys. Micheal Johnson is a good pass rusher and gets a lot of pressure, which is why he makes the amount money he makes.

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Maybe Im at risk of over simplifying it, but pressure from the edges without pressure from the interior seems like the very definition of the quarterback pocket.

Anybody else expecting a huge year from Chandler and Jamie? This D might actually end up being tops in the NFL depending upon health and 2nd/3rd year leaps from a few guys. If Easily can contribute as well and smith still has enough left to contribute in a rotational effort I wouldn't be shocked to be above San Francisco, Carolina and St. Louis. Seattle IMO still has a ridiculous amount of talent on every level of their D but I don't think our talent is too far off contingent upon a good player like Chandler becoming great and one of the most talented front 7 players (both motor and measurable) breaking out (JC). Jamie isn't too far off from Von Miller physically but he's asked to do different things. With the added depth and talent in the secondary, I think we'll see him coming foreword a lot more this year depending on the matchup.

I think a lot of this is going to come down to Kelly and Wilfork. If they still have it that will anchor what looks to be a potentialy elite D. Hopefully Collins picks up where he left off. With Denard that solid 2nd CB and Mayo... Mayo I dont see a lot of weakness.

Danger Zone said:

Maybe Im at risk of over simplifying it, but pressure from the edges without pressure from the interior is the very definition of the quarterback pocket.

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Fair point, you need to be able to generate strong pressure from both areas to disrupt a great offense like Denver's. The Patriots won't be able to do that if their edge rushing isn't better than the mediocre edge rushing they had last year, which is what my original point was.

Marqui said:

Not really sure what you're going on about here but I stand by everything I said. There's other aspects to pass rush than edge rushers but not a lot more. Interior pressure and blitzing is just complimentary to a good overall pass rush. If you don't have good edge rushing, you're not going to have a good overall pass rush is what my point is.

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You know what I'm saying. Your initial post was poor. You've just doubled down on your folly instead of simply admitting that you were overselling the outside rush and minimizing other aspects of the pass rush, like blitzes and interior pressure.

Marqui said:

Oh so you're one of those "sacks are everything" guys. Micheal Johnson is a good pass rusher and gets a lot of pressure, which is why he makes the amount money he makes.

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No, I'm not on of those guys, as my defense of Wilfork as a 3rd down player in the past should make clear. It's noteworthy in this case, however, as you'd admit if you weren't too busy trying to defend a really lame claim.

Bruins29 said:

I think a lot of this is going to come down to Kelly and Wilfork. If they still have it that will anchor what looks to be a potentialy elite D. Hopefully Collins picks up where he left off. With Denard that solid 2nd CB and Mayo... Mayo I dont see a lot of weakness.

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We were a top 10 defense without Wilfork and Kelly, so I don't think that they can be critical. We've added Revis, Browner and will get Mayo back. Plus some of the youngsters should improve. We also will have three unknown quantities who should help us improve: Easley, Smith and Armstead.

mgteich said:

We were a top 10 defense without Wilfork and Kelly, so I don't think that they can be critical. We've added Revis, Browner and will get Mayo back. Plus some of the youngsters should improve. We also will have three unknown quantities who should help us improve: Easley, Smith and Armstead.

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Watch that Denver game again, if you don't think Wilfork and Kelly can be critical.

Bruins29 said:

Well, They now have Smith and with a Healthy Kelly and Wilfork with perhaps Easley/Armstead factoring in they can slide VW over.

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They can slide Wilfork where?

Deus Irae said:

Watch that Denver game again, if you don't think Wilfork and Kelly can be critical.

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Deus Irae said:

Watch that Denver game again, if you don't think Wilfork and Kelly can be critical.

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I'll try to be clearer.

A poster said that our success revolves around the success of Wilfork and Kelly. I suggested that Wilfork and Kelly were not "critical" to a top defense, since we were a #10 defense and we have many improvements at many positions, even at DT (Easley).

And you, ignoring everyone the team added, decided that it is Wilfork and Kelly who are the keys to beating Denver. You are certainly free to that opinion. For me, I think that having Revis, Browner, Mayo and many others may be more critical.

You are free to believe that it will take Wilfork healthy, Kelly healthy and all the rest healthy and effective to beat Denver. Again you are entitled to that view. Of course, you are likely to be very disappointed since it is unlikely that everything will fall into place.

As an aside, Belichick certainly is paying a lot for these two and expects production.

mgteich said:

I'll try to be clearer.

A poster said that our success revolves around the success of Wilfork and Kelly. I suggested that Wilfork and Kelly were not "critical" to a top defense, since we were a #10 defense and we have many improvements at many positions, even at DT (Easley).

And you, ignoring everyone the team added, decided that it is Wilfork and Kelly who are the keys to beating Denver. You are certainly free to that opinion. For me, I think that having Revis, Browner, Mayo and many others may be more critical.

You are free to believe that it will take Wilfork healthy, Kelly healthy and all the rest healthy and effective to beat Denver. Again you are entitled to that view. Of course, you are likely to be very disappointed since it is unlikely that everything will fall into place.

As an aside, Belichick certainly is paying a lot for these two and expects production.

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Ummm.... How often do I ignore something as large as "everyone the team added"?

Your argument about the top 10 defense is a weak one, given this team's history of being at the top of the scoring defense, regardless of personnel. You and I both know that regular season ranking about points and/or yards is meaningless once this team gets to the point where things matter.

You are free to believe that there is no way players as talented at Wilfork/Kelly have been can be difference makers (and even "critical) in comparison to the likes of a Vellano, Silaga, Jones, etc... when it comes to matchups against the best of the best. I'll stick with the common sense approach of believing that they could be.

Regarding your aside, yes, it must be shocking to you that BB is paying more money to Wilfork and Kelly than they are to guys like Silaga, when there's just no way that they can make a critical difference in your eyes.