PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

How Much Optimism Do You Have Over This Defense?


Status
Not open for further replies.
It's possible the pass rush isn't good enough for the defense to be quite elite, honestly. They're returning mostly the same edge rushing group didn't get anywhere near Manning in the AFCCG.

But the Tackles we had weren't demanding double teams.
 
But the Tackles we had weren't demanding double teams.

...and the #1 CB went down with an injury. Etc. "The pass rush" is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge. All signs point to much more effective pressure this year, even with the same edge rushers.
 
It's possible the pass rush isn't good enough for the defense to be quite elite, honestly. They're returning mostly the same edge rushing group didn't get anywhere near Manning in the AFCCG.

This.

I'm so tired of people bringing up total sack numbers trying to say we had a good pass rush last year, we had great pass COVERAGE.

The pass rush was like molasses more often than not, Chandler Jones himself admitted in an interview that the majority of his sacks came because the back end did their job so well. A good pass rush is QUICK pressure, we had that at times, but our 48 sacks were majorly a byproduct of our very good coverage.

I am confident that this year will be improved, but the secondary will once again probably create most sack oppurtunities. Hopefully Easley, the return of Kelly, and Jones in year 3 will help the line get there quicker.

Edit: I am ignoring the fact that we had injuries, I'm simply against the people who claim last year was a good pass rush due to high number of sacks. Key players returning this year will certainly help.
 
Last edited:
...and the #1 CB went down with an injury. Etc. "The pass rush" is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge. All signs point to much more effective pressure this year, even with the same edge rushers.
The biggest problem was having to use Chandler Jones inside so often and Andre Carter no longer having the explosiveness to get off the edge.

I also think that people underestimate the impact Wilfork being on the field has. He lines up as a 1Tech on the right side of the defensive line and commands the LG and OC. That leaves Chandler Jones 1on1 with the LT. Without Wilfork teams were able to contain our 1Tech with the OC and use the LG to help the LT with Chandler Jones.
 
...and the #1 CB went down with an injury. Etc. "The pass rush" is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge. All signs point to much more effective pressure this year, even with the same edge rushers.
When the #1 CB was in the game they still didn't get anywhere near Manning. No need to lie to yourself about it, the D line flat out sucked in that game.

Only a fan of a team with weak edge rushing would say "the pass rush is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge". It actually isn't a lot more than that. Interior pressure and blitz pressure is fantastic but only makes up a fraction of pressure edge rushers get.

And miss me with the "our unbeatable coverage is going to make the pass rush better" nonsense.
 
People are hoping for either Buchanan to improve or for Will Smith to have a career resurrection. I'm hoping both will happen, but am only banking on one actually happening.
That's the biggest storyline for TC as far as I'm concerned.
 
Only a fan of a team with weak edge rushing would say "the pass rush is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge". It actually isn't a lot more than that. Interior pressure and blitz pressure is fantastic but only makes up a fraction of pressure edge rushers get.

Wow, you really think that the fact that the team was down to street FAs at DT and had to cover for the loss of Mayo didn't significantly affect the pass rush? I have to differ in a big, big way. The losses at other positions restricted their options, forcing the defense to be more conservative and allowing offenses to key on a small number of players.
 
People just look at numbers. They never consider situations and strategies.
 
Wow, you really think that the fact that the team was down to street FAs at DT and had to cover for the loss of Mayo didn't significantly affect the pass rush? I have to differ in a big, big way. The losses at other positions restricted their options, forcing the defense to be more conservative and allowing offenses to key on a small number of players.
What you're saying is true, having Kelly and Wilfork in there would have helped but it wasn't going to transform their pressure from non existent to Seattle in the SB level.
 
Until they find a consistent pass rush, NONE!

Let's face it, they got toasted by Peyton, granted they had a inordinate amount of injuries last year, the losses of Kelly, Mayo, and Vince are huge, but none of them are pass rushers!

I like Jones, Hightower to DE is an interesting idea, worth a shot. But still the Pats lack a truly dominate pass rusher, one that HAS TO BE accounted for and one that leaves others with one on one blocking. Regardless of how good you are in the secondary, you can't cover anyone for more than a few seconds, then they are going to get free. We have terrible safety play! With WIlfork, Kelly and Mayo all back, the defense against the run should improve greatly, however I think the loss of Spikes might off-set those gains.
 
Wow, losing Spikes, a 2 down, one role player, offsets a pass rushing DT, one of the best run stopping DT/NT's in the league, and one of the best LB's in the league.

Not that I didn't already know to never take a single one of your posts seriously, you just gave me a lot more cause to never consider rethinking that.
 
Wow, losing Spikes, a 2 down, one role player, offsets a pass rushing DT, one of the best run stopping DT/NT's in the league, and one of the best LB's in the league.

Not that I didn't already know to never take a single one of your posts seriously, you just gave me a lot more cause to never consider rethinking that.

Obviously, you have never played football.....

Nobody is a bigger Vince fan here than me. A great DT will occupy two sometimes three linemen leaving who? (insert your run stuffing middle linebacker here) to make the tackle. It certainly is not going to be any of the safeties currently on the roster, so who moves to the inside? Mayo, yup he can get the job done, maybe even Hightower too, but still there is a hole there that wasn't before and now you have created hole elsewhere. You forget how many fumbles Spikes caused, he also had a number of red zone interceptions. Spikes was far from perfect, but he brought some serious thunder with him.
 
Obviously, you have never played football.....

What does someone playing football have to do with them commenting about a teams defense being decimated with injuries naturally affecting the teams ability to exploit certain schemes and situations?
 
=
he also had a number of red zone interceptions. Spikes was far from perfect, but he brought some serious thunder with him.

Ya that number is 2. One in 2010 off of Sanchez and a gift from Andy Dalton last year.
 
I am very excited for this defense. IMO it will be as good as the D Line allows it to be. I really have a lot of confidence in our DBs and LBs. DL however does have question marks. Ninko and Jones are solid but how are our backups going to do? Will Wilfork/Kelly/Easley/Armstead be effective? We just don't know yet. I think it will probably work out but the DL is my only pause right now.
 
Obviously, you have never played football.....

Nobody is a bigger Vince fan here than me. A great DT will occupy two sometimes three linemen leaving who? (insert your run stuffing middle linebacker here) to make the tackle. It certainly is not going to be any of the safeties currently on the roster, so who moves to the inside? Mayo, yup he can get the job done, maybe even Hightower too, but still there is a hole there that wasn't before and now you have created hole elsewhere. You forget how many fumbles Spikes caused, he also had a number of red zone interceptions. Spikes was far from perfect, but he brought some serious thunder with him.
Its funny you throw out that insult toward the poster. Your logic and understanding of run defense is shaky and thats being generous.
 
...Only a fan of a team with weak edge rushing would say "the pass rush is a lot more than the couple of guys on the edge". It actually isn't a lot more than that....

Actually, it is a lot more than that, and history, both distant and recent, has provided all sorts of examples.
 
Actually, it is a lot more than that, and history, both distant and recent, has provided all sorts of examples.
Oh really? Give me some of these examples of teams that had mediocre edge rushers but still had a great pass rush.

09 Jets are the only team I can think of and it was because they had an exotic scheme the league wasn't use to. Their pass rush fell off a cliff the subsequent years when their scheme stopped surprising everyone.
 
Until they find a consistent pass rush, NONE!

Let's face it, they got toasted by Peyton, granted they had a inordinate amount of injuries last year, the losses of Kelly, Mayo, and Vince are huge, but none of them are pass rushers!

I like Jones, Hightower to DE is an interesting idea, worth a shot. But still the Pats lack a truly dominate pass rusher, one that HAS TO BE accounted for and one that leaves others with one on one blocking. Regardless of how good you are in the secondary, you can't cover anyone for more than a few seconds, then they are going to get free.

One of the best articles on defense in the modern passing era was written by Greg Cosell 15 months ago, after the Seattle Seahawks signed Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett in free agency. The Seahawks had lost Chris Clemons to an ACL injury in the divisional round against Atlanta, and their pass rush was crippled. Unable to generate any effective pressure against Matt Ryan, the Falcons drove the field against Seattle's awesome secondary with under a minute left and kicked the winning field goal. The Seahawk's response was to go out and load up on pass rushers in FA. Cosell wrote:

In a passing league, what must you do? You must rush the quarterback, and you must cover receivers. That’s the Cliff's Notes version. The devil is always in the details. What the Seahawks have done is draft and sign players that give them tremendous pass rush versatility -- and just as important, disruption on the outside versus wide receivers.

Go back a year to the 2012 NFL draft. All we heard when Seattle selected Bruce Irvin with the 15th overall pick in the first round was, “what a reach.” Those same “experts” would then tell you in the next breath that rushing the quarterback is the most important defensive element in today’s NFL. And by the way, Irvin played 46 percent of the snaps in his rookie season, including the playoffs, recording 11 sacks. But there’s a much larger point at work here. It’s how you scheme pass rush pressure. With Irvin, a returning Chris Clemons, and newly signed Cliff Avril, the Seahawks have three players who can align anywhere in their nickel sub-package. They all have what we call “Joker” ability, the talent to line up in either 3-point or 2-point stances and rush from different positions and angles.

What you have is an ideal mix of physical athleticism, and multiple schemes. It’s the new age pressure concepts in the NFL. It’s very difficult to line up with four defensive linemen in conventional positions, and create consistent pressure on the quarterback.
Not only is it difficult to find four players who can do that, it’s tactically easier for the offense to protect against those more basic fronts. What defenses are trying to accomplish is pass protection indecision based on front alignments, coupled with athletic mismatches. The Seahawks are well positioned to do that with their personnel.

Let’s not forget Bennett. In Tampa last season, he played defensive end in the base 4-3, and then moved inside to tackle in the nickel and dime sub-packages. His pass rush quickness was not only a problem for offensive guards, it allowed him to be effective with stunts, another tactic that creates hesitation and confusion in pass protection schemes. The bottom line is this: the Seahawks have constructed a multi-dimensional combination of talent with speed, athleticism, and position and scheme versatility. That’s what’s necessary in the NFL of 2013 and beyond.

The picture is not complete, however. The Seahawks made a commitment to big, physical corners, players who were not held in the same high value around the league because they did not possess what has long been regarded as the necessary attributes of lateral quickness, dynamic change of direction and timed speed. Richard Sherman was a former wide receiver at Stanford who switched to corner his final two years. The Seahawks selected the 6’3” Sherman in the fifth round of the 2011 draft. He is arguably the best cornerback in the NFL entering the 2013 season. 6’4” Brandon Browner was undrafted out of Oregon State in 2005; again, he was seen as too slow and not quick enough to play NFL corner. The Seahawks signed him as a free agent after 4 seasons with the Calgary Stampeders of the Canadian Football League.

Gus Bradley, the Seahawks defensive coordinator the last four seasons before becoming the Jacksonville Jaguars' head coach in January, summed it up best. He once said, “Whatever scheme you play, you’ve got to create disruption at the perimeter.” With Sherman and Browner, the Seahawks do that more consistently and better than any team in the NFL. Disruption outside with taller, more aggressive corners; pass rush flexibility and adaptability with athletic and versatile hybrids who can align all over.

That’s the template for defensive success in a passing league.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/cosell-seahawks-set-tone-nfl-free-agency-181559870--nfl.html

Obviously, that article was written well before the Seahawks' championship run. Cosell's analysis ended up being spot on.

So let's look at the Pats' D - obviously, on paper right now, just as Seattle's was when Cosell wrote his article - and look at those 2 key elements of "the template for defensive success in a passing league":

1. Disruption outside with taller, more aggressive corners. Check. Revis + Browner certainly fits that bill. The Pats' secondary is geared to creating "disruption at the perimeter", to use Gus Bradley's term.

2. Pass rush flexibility and adaptability with athletic and versatile hybrids who can align all over. Jamie Collins, Chandler Jones, Dominique Easley, Dont'a Hightower and Rob Ninkovich all fit that description to a T. That's 5 guys who can be moved around to "scheme pressure" and provide "joker" ability, giving "an ideal blend of athleticism and the ability to mix multiple schemes". And that doesn't count potential contributions from Jerod Mayo, Tommy Kelly (a very effective disruptor before getting injured), Armond Armstead, Will Smith and Michael Buchanan, all of whom are question marks, but any of whom could increase the ability to scheme pressure effectively.

On paper at least, the Pats certainly seem to have "constructed a multi-dimensional combination of talent with speed, athleticism, and position and scheme versatility". Obviously, this is on paper, and it's obviously subject to questions regarding player health, development, ability to grasp the concepts, and ability to mesh together effectively. But there's no reason to suppose that we won't see "new age pressure concepts" that we haven't seen in the past due to personnel deficiencies and/or injuries.
 
Oh really? Give me some of these examples of teams that had mediocre edge rushers but still had a great pass rush.

09 Jets are the only team I can think of and it was because they had an exotic scheme the league wasn't use to. Their pass rush fell off a cliff the subsequent years when their scheme stopped surprising everyone.

First, you're now setting up a false requirement. Second, you just mentioned one example that works even with your massaged position. Third, if you don't think that guys like Jay Ratliff getting pressure from the IOL, or a Tedy Bruschi Blitz up the middle, is part of a pass rush, you're completely clueless on how a pass rush works.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Patriots Grab Their First WR of the 2024 Draft, Snag Washington’s Polk
2024 Patriots Draft Picks – FULL LIST
MORSE: Patriots QB Drake Maye Analysis and What to Expect in Round 2 and 3
Five Patriots/NFL Thoughts Following Night One of the 2024 NFL Draft
Friday Patriots Notebook 4/26: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Patriots QB Drake Maye Conference Call
Patriots Now Have to Get to Work After Taking Maye
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf and Jerod Mayo After Patriots Take Drake Maye
Thursday Patriots Notebook 4/25: News and Notes
Patriots Kraft ‘Involved’ In Decision Making?  Zolak Says That’s Not the Case
Back
Top