Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Galeb said:

Unfortunately this link will be burried under at least 38 pages of posts. Teddy Bruschi has some good thoughts on this.

Wells report reveals how Richie Incognito's bullying warped Jonathan Martin's perspective - ESPN

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Thanks. Definitely enjoyed reading it. This quote was spot on:

At this point, defending Incognito is nearly impossible unless it's part of a purely academic exercise. The idea that this is boys being boys, that every 20-something would be in trouble if his text messages to his friends were examined without context, is a classic straw man. If your boys-will-be-boys messages lead another human being to quit a job and seek psychiatric help, then by all means feel free to share your "wisdom." Otherwise, spare us.

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Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

dizi24 said:

Thanks. Definitely enjoyed reading it. This quote was spot on:

If your boys-will-be-boys messages lead another human being to quit a job and seek psychiatric help, then by all means feel free to share your "wisdom." Otherwise, spare us.

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No, that quote isn't spot on. It doesn't account for the fact that Martin's personal issues come into play.

Say someone new gets hired in at your company and they are afraid of their own freaking shadow. If you even say "Hello" to them, they freak the heck out.

Does that mean you were wrong to say it in the first place ? Is saying "Hello" to be forbidden because one person can't deal with it ?

Martin's own words explain this whole situation.

I’m never gonna change. I got punked again today. Like a little *****. And I never do anything about it

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I figured out a major source of my anxiety. I’m a push over, a people pleaser. I avoid confrontation whenever I can, I always want everyone to like me. I let people talk about me, say anything to my face, and I just take it, laugh it off, even when I know they are intentionally trying to disrespect me. I mostly blame the soft schools I went to, which fostered within me a feeling that I’m a huge *****, as I never got into fights. I used to get verbally bullied every day in middle school and high school, by kids that are half my size. I would never fight back, just get sad & feel like no one wanted to be my friend

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The problem is that Martin never learned that there are times where you have to stand up for yourself. It's great to try to avoid confrontations, but at some point, show some freaking backbone.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Demosthenes said:

No, that quote isn't spot on. It doesn't account for the fact that Martin's personal issues come into play.

Say someone new gets hired in at your company and they are afraid of their own freaking shadow. If you even say "Hello" to them, they freak the heck out.

Does that mean you were wrong to say it in the first place ? Is saying "Hello" to be forbidden because one person can't deal with it ?

Martin's own words explain this whole situation.







The problem is that Martin never learned that there are times where you have to stand up for yourself. It's great to try to avoid confrontations, but at some point, show some freaking backbone.

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When all else fails, blame the victim. Weak.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Danger Zone said:

Charges of racism are usually wildly overblown and usually exploited as a weapon by the Left???

:blink:

I physically shuddered at the thought that came over me while reading that gem of a statement: What if Harry Boy was an alt of his? :andjesuswept:

Only the most narrow minded and whitest of insular males would make that kind of blanket statement -and be so goddamn patronizing while doing so.

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There's a narrow view of racism wherein racist behavior is defined as overly aggressive or violent acts such as burning a cross on someone's lawn. And since this doesn't happen anymore it means racism is pretty much vanquished.

Any attempts to point out that racism still exists in a much more pernicious fashion - as an insidious force within the constructs of our social interactions, based on privilege and power - are merely race-baiting rather than attempt to identify and address a real issue in society.

I understand where this viewpoint comes from, but I obviously reject it.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Here's my take and I am speaking generally. I am going to use A as representing the person starting the jokes. Then X and Y as representing 2 different people being on the receiving end of the joke. Everyone has feelings and some people are more sensitive than others for various reasons. Just because Person X may not have be hurt or offended by a particular joke from person A doesn't necessarily mean that Person Y won't be hurt or offended by that same joke from Person A. If person A knows that joking with person X is fine because they can handle those same jokes than Person A joking around with Person X in that way is fine. It should not be expected that Person Y accept the jokes of Person A and take them in a good way simply because person X takes Person A's joke that way. However, if Person X and Person Y are OKAY with those same jokes from Person A than joking around with them in the same way is fine. If Person A knows that Person Y takes jokes differently than person X than Person A should tailor their jokes accordingly. IMO


I thought this particular passage was very interesting and would make a great lesson for this case. "The smallest part of the body, the tongue can cause great damage when we do not control it. A wrongly chosen word can hurt a reputation, alienate a friend, or break a heart." The following excerpt is from page 22 of the book Tim Tebow Through MY EYES.

I feel Incognito should have realized how his so called jokes would affect Martin. Since he knew Martin very well having worked, played, practiced etc alongside of him. He more than likely knew Johnathan was more sensitive than your average guy in the NFL locker room and would not do well with those kind of jokes. Thus, he should have tailored his jokes accordingly with Martin.

I haven't read the entire report, but from what I have read Incognito has said and done some awful things to Martin, the assistant trainer etc. As more info come out on this case things seem to get worse. Further leading me to believe that incognito is a very troubled person.
Just my two cents.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

I don't understand what you're saying. Demosthenes. First you say:

Demosthenes said:

The problem is that Martin never learned that there are times where you have to stand up for yourself.

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Then you say:

Demosthenes said:

It's great to try to avoid confrontations, but at some point, show some freaking backbone.

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How is he supposed to show some "freaking backbone" when the first quote says he never learned that?

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

JackBauer said:

When all else fails, blame the victim. Weak.

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BS. There are times when the "victim" is indeed the one to blame.


Example: Pedistrian killed by car". Oh, the poor pedestrian victim, right ?


But what if it turns out that the "Pedestrian" was an idiot who decided to run out in traffic to try and play "tag" with a car ?

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Wheelman said:

I don't understand what you're saying. Demosthenes. First you say:



Then you say:

How is he supposed to show some "freaking backbone" when the first quote says he never learned that?

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Perhaps he could have listened a little closer to what his dad said ?

Just so you know, I punked out many times including over ******. Also over just being black. Mot proud of it in the least. It is just a matter of understanding your own strength.

...

Also, I learned how to pop a bully in his mouth and kicked one in his balls.

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I read his Dad's words to mean that sometimes you take it, but some times you have to stand up for yourself.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Popping people in the mouth doesn't always work and can make it worse in some cases. It's easier said than done, I don't think Richie's going to crawl into the fetal position because some rookie hits him in the face.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

robbomango said:

Popping people in the mouth doesn't always work and can make it worse in some cases. It's easier said than done, I don't think Richie's going to crawl into the fetal position because some rookie hits him in the face.

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Of course it doesn't always work, and it definitely shouldn't be the first course of action.

Here's another passage from the report that goes to what I'm saying.

According to Martin, a fellow player standing near him in line overheard the comment and said “get them off your back.” Martin said that this episode further demonstrated to him that his teammates witnessed how he was routinely demeaned by the rest of the offensive line and observed that he was not standing up for himself, and he promised himself that if the linemen did one more thing, he would leave.

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The dude should have stood up for himself. It's often the case that you don't have to actually throw punches or fight, just show that you've had enough and are ready and willing to.

Martin is exactly what he was worried about, and that is SOFT.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Demosthenes said:

No, that quote isn't spot on. It doesn't account for the fact that Martin's personal issues come into play.

Say someone new gets hired in at your company and they are afraid of their own freaking shadow. If you even say "Hello" to them, they freak the heck out.

Does that mean you were wrong to say it in the first place ? Is saying "Hello" to be forbidden because one person can't deal with it ?

Martin's own words explain this whole situation.







The problem is that Martin never learned that there are times where you have to stand up for yourself. It's great to try to avoid confrontations, but at some point, show some freaking backbone.

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Ah. the mental health expert in full flow.

Bravo sir.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

resdubwhite said:

Ah. the mental health expert in full flow.

Bravo sir.

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Is that the best you can do ? Of course, you have offered nothing what so ever to refute anything I have said. Imagine that

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Demosthenes said:

Is that the best you can do ? Of course, you have offered nothing what so ever to refute anything I have said. Imagine that

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your advice for someone suffering with a mental heath issue is to stick up for themselves.

thats your advice?

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

resdubwhite said:

your advice for someone suffering with a mental heath issue is to stick up for themselves.

thats your advice?

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I think not standing up for himself long ago is what contributed to his mental health issues. So yes, I think standing up would have helped with the low self esteem and depression. I think it also would have stopped the situation that was happening in the locker room as well, which also would have helped.

Now, if he were bi-polar or schizophrenic, that would be a different situation.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Le Batard: Why is Miami siding with Richie Incognito and not Jonathan Martin, the victim? - ESPN

Whether or not you agree with his slant and take, Le Batard does a great job of highlighting some of the key paradoxes.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Schlereth: Don't lose crucial parts of 'the code' in NFL locker rooms - ESPN

Mark Schlereth is emphatically on the anti-bullying side, with stories from the Redskins Hogs era that he participated in. It's a bit "Mister Rogers drinks beer", but I still find it persuasive. Incognito supporters, however, probably won't.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Demosthenes said:

No, that quote isn't spot on. It doesn't account for the fact that Martin's personal issues come into play.

Say someone new gets hired in at your company and they are afraid of their own freaking shadow. If you even say "Hello" to them, they freak the heck out.

Does that mean you were wrong to say it in the first place ? Is saying "Hello" to be forbidden because one person can't deal with it ?

Martin's own words explain this whole situation.

The problem is that Martin never learned that there are times where you have to stand up for yourself. It's great to try to avoid confrontations, but at some point, show some freaking backbone.

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Jesus, nice straw man. Where the hell was I talking about someone who was afraid of their shadow. JMart played under Jim Harbough, a particularly intense coach, and by all reports, had zero problems in a college locker room.

But I appreciate your psychological evaluation of Martin. Good read

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

shmessy said:

From Bruschi's column:

"Incognito was the "team" guy, right? Member of the Leadership Council, bell cow for the offensive line, self-appointed hardener of the soft, he comes across in the report as a terribly divisive man whose bizarre and disgusting behavior cost the team a starting offensive lineman and subjected it to a phenomenal amount of unwanted scrutiny.

However you want to describe Martin's response to the constant badgering -- abashed complicity, courage, fear -- it's obvious he was a far better example of maturity than the bullying band of brothers that assembled to taunt him."

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That's not Bruschi's column, it's Tim Keown's column.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

shmessy said:

From Bruschi's column:

"Incognito was the "team" guy, right? Member of the Leadership Council, bell cow for the offensive line, self-appointed hardener of the soft, he comes across in the report as a terribly divisive man whose bizarre and disgusting behavior cost the team a starting offensive lineman and subjected it to a phenomenal amount of unwanted scrutiny.

However you want to describe Martin's response to the constant badgering -- abashed complicity, courage, fear -- it's obvious he was a far better example of maturity than the bullying band of brothers that assembled to taunt him."

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It's a nice quote. However, it may be worth pointing out that the column is not by Bruschi, but rather by ESPN writer Tim Keown. Bruschi and Darren Woodson are featured in the accompanying video.

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Just heard Christian Faurier on WEEI. He said in 13 years with 4 different teams he never saw or heard anything remotely close to the locker roo!m environment in Miami. That's after reading the report. He said Incognito strikes him as the biggest a-hole and scumbag imaginable.