Can we talk WR for a bit?

DaBruinz said:

Here's a novel idea. Why not just move Hernandez to WR full time?

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Off The Grid said:

No offense, Bro, but that would destroy his deadliest Attribute: His Unpredictability.

FootBall is a viciously competitive War Game.

When Aaron The Navigator is out there, the D has no clue if we're going to Run or Pass.

That is a gigantic Advantage...which we would be hideously foolish to surrender.

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DaBruinz said:

And I have to disagree that Hernandez wouldn't be a mismatch against a Corner.

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Disagree with who??

Nobody ~ nobody ~ has been a more relentless Fan of Aaron The Navigator, who I mocked to us back in February 2010, when everybody was screaming at me how stupid that idea was...

So please don't presume to tell me that he wouldn't be a mismatch against a Corner.

Aaron The Navigator is the most versatile deadly weapon in the GAME.

Constraining him to Split End or Flanker would be insanely foolish.

Sciz said:

My favorite WR, although probably not my favorite value. I know the comparison will look bad now, but he plays a lot like Brandon Lloyd. He's not ridiculously fast (he'd still be the fastest WR on the team), but he uses his success with the intermediate routes to kill CBs with double moves. He also has that Hernandez skill of catching the ball, doing a 180, and running back against the grain for a bunch of extra yards. I also saw him just plow through a CB on one play. So he's basically Lloyd before the catch and Hernandez after the catch

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I'm not sure I'm on board with the Lloyd comparison but Hopkins is definitely my #1 WR. Strong, fast, physical (LSU was trying to beat the hell out of him all game and it just made him bear down more) and can snatch. Hopkins runs all the routes and makes plays after the catch. He's an extremely impressive player, especially given where he's ranked right now.

The other WR I like, and the one I feel the Patriots have to grab, is Stedman Bailey. He was born to play in the Patriots offense. The answer to the unasked question, "What if Dieon Branch was actually kind of fast?"

BlackFrancis said:

I'm not sure I'm on board with the Lloyd comparison but Hopkins is definitely my #1 WR. Strong, fast, physical (LSU was trying to beat the hell out of him all game and it just made him bear down more) and can snatch. Hopkins runs all the routes and makes plays after the catch. He's an extremely impressive player, especially given where he's ranked right now.

The other WR I like, and the one I feel the Patriots have to grab, is Stedman Bailey. He was born to play in the Patriots offense. The answer to the unasked question, "What if Dieon Branch was actually kind of fast?"

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I like Bailey but I wonder just how fast he is. A lot of his deep balls come down to broken coverages. I didn't see him outsprint a corner that often. His combine will be interesting. He has become a bit of a forgotten man. Good player though.

Wilfork#75 said:

I think the character thing has been completely overblown by 1 comment by his coach. I think it was just a case of a HC trying to motivate his WR because he wasn't living up to expectations (which were extremely high). In the same comment he also praised him so I wouldn't read too much into it.



I actually think we have a blueprint of how to use Hunter. His style of play has been compared to Randy Moss, and while I certainly wouldn't say he is as talented as Moss was, I think he could be used in the same way. I actually think he would offer a little more versatility than Moss did because he offers more route versatility due to his willingness to go over the middle. He might not put up huge numbers early on, but he should make big plays.

In the end I think what will seperate the WR's is value. There are a bunch of really good guys I would be happy to take, and who I would target depends largely on who will fall. I would be happy to trade out of the first and target 2 guys in the mid/late 2nd or early 3rd.

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Here's another reason why he might not be a fit, he averaged 1yd per screen pass. He didn't run a lot of screens (10% of his receptions) but even so, 1yd seems pretty low. I wonder why? Lack of wiggle, lack of strength, lack of burst perhaps.

Off The Grid said:

Big Fan.

Exactly what this Offense needs.

I'll take 3, please.

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He's a good player, but we won't be stretching the field with 3x Chris Harpers

manxman2601 said:

I like Bailey but I wonder just how fast he is. A lot of his deep balls come down to broken coverages. I didn't see him outsprint a corner that often. His combine will be interesting. He has become a bit of a forgotten man. Good player though.

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I don't think he's going to outsprint all that many defenders. Still, he's got major quickness and he's fast enough to get by - certainly faster than Dieon was coming into the league. The big thing that I see similar to Branch is the way he catches the ball in tight coverage. Bailey keeps running the route until the last instant, then looks for the ball, instead of looking back early.

I think his combine will be largely disappointing, in that I imagine he's going to measure short and not raise any eyebrows in the 40, unless one looks at the splits.

manxman2601 said:

He's a good player, but we won't be stretching the field with 3x Chris Harpers

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Sure we will.

We'll just be stretching it horizontally, not vertically.

Stretching the Field vertically...scores HighLight Reels.

Stretching the Field horizontally...helps win Championships.

Move The Chains, Baby.

Just Move The Chains.

***

We've been "Wowing" people for the last 8 years...and haven't won schytte.

Back in the day, we didn't impress anybody...we just won Championships.

Do I really need to say the next line??

Off The Grid said:

Sure we will.

We'll just be stretching it horizontally, not vertically.

Stretching the Field vertically...scores HighLight Reels.

Stretching the Field horizontally...helps win Championships.

Move The Chains, Baby.

Just Move The Chains.

***

We've been "Wowing" people for the last 8 years...and haven't won schytte.

Back in the day, we didn't impress anybody...we just won Championships.

Do I really need to say the next line??

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We stretched the field horizontally this year and won schytte. To make space for our playmakers, and we've got lots, we need to stretch it both ways.

Getting "The Navigator", Demps, Vereen, maybe Welker and/or Edelman, maybe even Tavon Austin or Percy Harvin the ball on a field that hasn't been compressed to just 10 yards from the LOS will see us both impressing people and winning championships.

BlackFrancis said:

I don't think he's going to outsprint all that many defenders. Still, he's got major quickness and he's fast enough to get by - certainly faster than Dieon was coming into the league. The big thing that I see similar to Branch is the way he catches the ball in tight coverage. Bailey keeps running the route until the last instant, then looks for the ball, instead of looking back early.

I think his combine will be largely disappointing, in that I imagine he's going to measure short and not raise any eyebrows in the 40, unless one looks at the splits.

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I keep saying this, but boy is this WR draft deep. There's about 8-10 receivers I'd be very happy taking...and quite a few TE's also.

patsfaninpa said:

I posted this in the blueprint thread. Figured it's a better fit here and moved it here.

It seems the opinion of many posters that's it's crazy to draft a wr in the first. Why the aversion to drafting a wr with a first? I submit the following champions. I don't want to go Matt Millen and draft em every year. But, as the evidence shows. Targeting and drafting one can help you win a championship.

72-73 Dolphins - Traded a 1st 3rd overall for Paul Warfield.
70'S Steelers - Drafted Lynn Swann 21st overall in 74 and won 4 of next 6.
82-91 Redskins - 3X Champs had Art Monk a 1st Rounder in 1980 18th overall.
88-94 49'ers - Traded up with our Pats in 85 after already winning 2 Super Bowls
and drafted Jerry Rice. Won 3 more.
90's Cowboys - Michael Irvin 88 and Alvin Harper 91 were 1st Rounders. Won 3.
99 Rams - Drafted Tory Holt in the first.
06 Colts - Marvin Harrison 96 and Reggie Wayne in 01.
08 Steelers - Santonio Holmes is a major douche bag. But, he did help them win
a Super Bowl.
11 NYG - Hakeem Nicks in 2009.

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Fascinating stuff, and well argued, Sir.

I would note, though: Merely 3 of the last 12.

And that during the so-called "Passing League" Era.

That would seem to punch an enormous hole in your Argument.

manxman2601 said:

He's a good player, but we won't be stretching the field with 3x Chris Harpers

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Off The Grid said:

Sure we will.

We'll just be stretching it horizontally, not vertically.

Stretching the Field vertically...scores HighLight Reels.

Stretching the Field horizontally...helps win Championships.

Move The Chains, Baby.

Just Move The Chains.

***

We've been "Wowing" people for the last 8 years...and haven't won schytte.

Back in the day, we didn't impress anybody...we just won Championships.

Do I really need to say the next line??

Click to expand...

manxman2601 said:

We stretched the field horizontally this year and won schytte. To make space for our playmakers, and we've got lots, we need to stretch it both ways.

Getting "The Navigator", Demps, Vereen, maybe Welker and/or Edelman, maybe even Tavon Austin or Percy Harvin the ball on a field that hasn't been compressed to just 10 yards from the LOS will see us both impressing people and winning championships.

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TF???

I know I already posted a reply to this...Is it just me, or has the Site been wacky of late?

Evidently, I do need to say the next line.

***

"We stretched the field horizontally this year and won schytte."

Wrong, my good man!! :nono:

We tried to stretch it Horizontally, but failed miserably: Floyd was the only legitimate Outside Threat we had, and he was far more of a FlankerBack ~ your kind of guy ~ than a Split End ~ my kind of guy.

As I've already said: we have Zero Split Ends on the Roster.

Therefore we most certainly have not stretched the field horizontally...More's the Pity.

***

Give me big, tough Scrappers like Christopher Harper who can consistently Move The Chains, both Receiving and Blocking, over Sprinter McGee, blasting down the field at his 4.35 Clip, while Brady's Pass gets overthrown, underthrown, or deflected away, killing yet another Drive, every day of the week.

...and twice on Sundays.

***

I don't think anyone in'is right mind would say it wouldn't be nice to stretch the field Vertically, as well as Horizontally...And it would also be great to have All Pro Caliber back ups at every single position.

But give the constraints of the Salary Cap, choices must be made, yes?

manxman2601 said:

I keep saying this, but boy is this WR draft deep. There's about 8-10 receivers I'd be very happy taking...and quite a few TE's also.

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There might be a few you like, but there is only 1 we need!



#89 from Bama

Off The Grid said:

TF???

I know I already posted a reply to this...Is it just me, or has the Site been wacky of late?

Evidently, I do need to say the next line.

***

"We stretched the field horizontally this year and won schytte."

Wrong, my good man!! :nono:

We tried to stretch it Horizontally, but failed miserably: Floyd was the only legitimate Outside Threat we had, and he was far more of a FlankerBack ~ your kind of guy ~ than a Split End ~ my kind of guy.

As I've already said: we have Zero Split Ends on the Roster.

Therefore we most certainly have not stretched the field horizontally...More's the Pity.

***

Give me big, tough Scrappers like Christopher Harper who can consistently Move The Chains, both Receiving and Blocking, over Sprinter McGee, blasting down the field at his 4.35 Clip, while Brady's Pass gets overthrown, underthrown, or deflected away, killing yet another Drive, every day of the week.

...and twice on Sundays.

***

I don't think anyone in'is right mind would say it wouldn't be nice to stretch the field Vertically, as well as Horizontally...And it would also be great to have All Pro Caliber back ups at every single position.

But give the constraints of the Salary Cap, choices must be made, yes?

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I think we need both, and I think this is the draft we could get both. I'm not a huge fan of Harper, I don't like his feel for the position and question if he can get the separation needed in the NFL. He has a chance, but I think it would take some developing and I wouldn't take him before the 4th. But I do love Da'Rick Rogers in the split end role. He is taller, faster, more agile and has a better feel for the position. I also really like his former teammate Cordarrelle Patterson who will go much higher. I think if we can match one of them up with one of the many 'FlankerBacks' in this draft (Hunter, Hopkins, Williams, Wheaton, Patton, Woods, Dobson) we would be in a great position.

If we could get a few extra picks (trade down, Mallett?, Tag and Trade?) then I would certainly look to draft 2 guys relatively high.

Wilfork#75 said:

I think we need both, and I think this is the draft we could get both. I'm not a huge fan of Harper, I don't like his feel for the position and question if he can get the separation needed in the NFL. He has a chance, but I think it would take some developing and I wouldn't take him before the 4th. But I do love Da'Rick Rogers in the split end role. He is taller, faster, more agile and has a better feel for the position. I also really like his former teammate Cordarrelle Patterson who will go much higher. I think if we can match one of them up with one of the many 'FlankerBacks' in this draft (Hunter, Hopkins, Williams, Wheaton, Patton, Woods, Dobson) we would be in a great position.

If we could get a few extra picks (trade down, Mallett?, Tag and Trade?) then I would certainly look to draft 2 guys relatively high.

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Well argued, Sir.

And you'll get absolutely no argument from me about DaRick Rogers. :snob:

Can't remember a draft being so heavy with wr's. Although there isn't a true cut Fitzgerald-Johnson it is so deep with talent otherwise. Probably 8-10 wr's I'd definitely be ok with plus 4 or 5 I'd be extremely happy with. Should be one competitive combine.

Wilfork#75 said:

There might be a few you like, but there is only 1 we need!

#89 from Bama

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I'm a big fan of Williams, that he declined his combine invite is very interesting. I wonder if he did so because he'd run a +5 in the 40 and feared he'd wind up undrafted. Anyway, even if he can't get seperation in the passing game I think he'd be magnificent raw material as an O-lineman.

His stock has been skyrocketing which I hate, but I've wanted Quinton Patton for a while. He looks like a slower Reggie Wayne or Brandon Lloyd who doesn't implode at the first sign of contact and slightly better speed.

BlackFrancis said:

I'm not sure I'm on board with the Lloyd comparison but Hopkins is definitely my #1 WR. Strong, fast, physical (LSU was trying to beat the hell out of him all game and it just made him bear down more) and can snatch. Hopkins runs all the routes and makes plays after the catch. He's an extremely impressive player, especially given where he's ranked right now.

The other WR I like, and the one I feel the Patriots have to grab, is Stedman Bailey. He was born to play in the Patriots offense. The answer to the unasked question, "What if Dieon Branch was actually kind of fast?"

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I like Hopkins after reading an analysis of the numbers. He is definitely a deep play threat averaging nearly 20 yards per catch. The comparisons to Reggie Wayne are promising. Brady would KILL defenses with a Reggie Wayne in his prime.

Tier 1 WRs: Allen, Patterson, Bailey and Hopkins, A Metrics Breakdown « Second Round Stats

Check out the highlights. Plays big, strong hands, goes up and gets the ball, and is a redzone threat. Which is pretty much what we are lacking in the WR department. Wes moves the chains on 3rd downs, but he's not the type of big red zone target who will go up and snatch the ball away from defenders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cTixvMEos

Tavon Austin!

SyN65 said:

Tavon Austin!

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Serious question. Why not Ace Sanders in the 5th rather than Austin in the first?