Borges: Condon puts Pats on call

I am not thrilled as what if this guy does not work out.
brady is another key here , who ever they sign have to impress brady. if not they end up in the dog house.josh also did not have brady and hence altered the system for llyod too. here if he tells brady change your system so lloyd can play brady will ask him to get out.

i am of the minority that says draft a high WR and a lower round one and develop.

tory smith was drafted 3 picks after shaane vareen. he caught 50+ balls. he was just fast and got open. we have alot of players who run the option routes in 20 yd in between the hashes. what we want is good hands and pure speed on the outside. you are going to ask this guy to not read and run option routes as you will have wes and te doing that. you want him to run away either on the sidelines.

also on the outside the routes are limited due to the sideline and speed is key so go younger.

Deus Irae said:

People here have gotten way to cheap with their 'offers'. As a general rule, if you want to get a good wide receiver in free agency, you have to pay good wide receiver money. Waiting can get you a bargain, but it also tends to get you players that are available for a reason. The same goes for whatever other positions you're looking at.

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As long as we are going to "pay" the player, I would rather go after Colston or VJack. so, let us see how it unfolds.

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

aabtec said:

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

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Wow, haven't seen this argument before... pretty hilarious though. You got me.

satz said:

I am not thrilled as what if this guy does not work out.
brady is another key here , who ever they sign have to impress brady. if not they end up in the dog house.josh also did not have brady and hence altered the system for llyod too. here if he tells brady change your system so lloyd can play brady will ask him to get out.

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I don't agree. Brady is a player and he will run whatever system the coaches tell him to run. Of course he will have input. But once the player is bigger than the system, it will eventually fail.

Besides, Brady has successfully played in 3 different systems. Pre-2007, 2007 and 2-TEs. BB will do what's best for this team. We can't expect Brady to stay in the pocket for 4-5 seconds anymore as he gets older. We need to conserve him.

aabtec said:

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

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......white noise.......white noise.......white noise.......

Re: Condon puts Pats on call

aabtec said:

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

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What abject BS.

I edited the thread title to include the fact that this is a Borges article - - before anyone unknowingly hits the link to read Ronny be the mouthpiece of another agent that has "issues to air" about the Patriots.

aabtec said:

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

Click to expand...

Maybe they can put together another "Dream Team" like the Philly Eagles.

nabwong said:

I don't agree. Brady is a player and he will run whatever system the coaches tell him to run. Of course he will have input. But once the player is bigger than the system, it will eventually fail.

Besides, Brady has successfully played in 3 different systems. Pre-2007, 2007 and 2-TEs. BB will do what's best for this team. We can't expect Brady to stay in the pocket for 4-5 seconds anymore as he gets older. We need to conserve him.

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I disagree IF a WR have to successfull he needs to be where brady wants him to be , not where Josh wants him to be. A problem with the option routes is he has to read and run a route as brady`s see`s it .Not josh.

I really think this is the time to draft a top tier talant and a speedster late. As i said in the outside you have the sidelines so you are asking the guy to beat press and run couple of deep routes.You want a young guy who can run and big enough to cause issues. I shy away from older outside guys due to injury and stamina.

satz said:

I disagree IF a WR have to successfull he needs to be where brady wants him to be , not where Josh wants him to be. A problem with the option routes is he has to read and run a route as brady`s see`s it .Not josh.

I really think this is the time to draft a top tier talant and a speedster late. As i said in the outside you have the sidelines so you are asking the guy to beat press and run couple of deep routes.You want a young guy who can run and big enough to cause issues. I shy away from older outside guys due to injury and stamina.

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You make that sound so easy.

Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate and Taylor Price make it look so hard.

I like Brandon Lloyd but not as much as the majority here...i still prefer others.
Whether we get Lloyd or not will not be a deal breaker for me.

aabtec said:

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

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That is utter BS. Yes, there were several key players who were drafted under Parcells (the only players from the Carroll era to be on Super Bowl teams were Faulk and Damien Woody), but Belichick made wholesale changes in 2000, 2001, and 2003. Key Super Bowl year players like Brady, Light, Vrabel, Koppen, Dillon, Roman Phifer, Rodney Harrison, Roosevelt Colvin, Ted washington, Bobby Hamilton, Eugen Wilson, Asante Samuel, Deion Branch, David Givens, etc. were all brought in by Belichick. Only Law (2 Super Bowls), Milloy (one Super Bowl), Troy, Bruschi, McGinest, and Vinatieri were from the Parcells era.

It is funny. The spin in the early 2000s was that the Pats were winning with a bunch of overachieving players who did their role and weren't looking for individual glory. Now it is that the Pats need stars because that is how they won Super Bowls.

BTW, basically all the Super Bowls in the Belichick era were won or lost on a handful of plays. You wouldn't be making this argument if Asante Samuel intercepted a ball that went right into his bread basket in February of 2008 or Welker caught the ball two weeks ago.

Re: Condon puts Pats on call

everlong said:

If you tag Welker and he's getting 9.5M, or about that, how much more can you dedicate to the WR position? Lets say Lloyd was to agree to 6M and I think that's on the low side of what he's thinking. That's 15.5M of the available 120-130M of cap space, depending on the final number of what they push forward from last season.

Now ask yourself are the Patriots going to use 12.5% (about) on two 31 year old receivers?

That sounds more like the Colt's way than the Patriot's way to me. For better or for worse this organization is dedicated to value and they have numbers on what they'll spend at different positions, etc. Nothing is done that doesn't fit their model. I don't always like it but I don't see this happening.

Now if Wes is willing to back off and take 3/24 and Lloyd 3/18 maybe but I don't know that I see them doing that. Yes they did pay Ocho 6M this year but that was while paying Wes and Deion 3-something each.

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Back in 2008 knowing they were facing a potential lockout looming after 2010 they paid Randy and Welker and Gaffney a combined $14M+ in average salaries against an adjusted cap of $121M. At a time when the franchise QB's cap hit was about the same as in 2012. And the RB corps was taking up several million in space. And the OL was averaging close to what it will. And the aging defense still managed to have several veteran studs in the $4-8M cap hit range. Heck, they had 10% of cap tied up in dead cap that season.

The cap will remain fairly flat for the next 2 seasons, but it will jump dramatically thereafter, probably increasing in excess of 10% in 2014 and by at least 5% thereafter due to the new television deals.

I have no clue what the market for Lloyd is, I doubt Condon or BB do at this point, but unless it's in excess of his value here they won't have any trouble adding that piece if they choose to or a drafted (or undrafted) WR or two to the puzzle from a cap or cash perspective. And they will still have room for Branch as insurance, provided of course they move on from the failed and costly Ocho experiment. And they still will have room to add to the defense both in FA and the draft. As long as you accept and understand none of the pieces they add were likely to be of the overpaid, top tier, day 1 FA or top 10 draft variety either way. But that's more a principle or consistent value choice than a limit necessitated by imaginary cap constraints.

Re: Condon puts Pats on call

MoLewisrocks said:

Back in 2008 knowing they were facing a potential lockout looming after 2010 they paid Randy and Welker and Gaffney a combined $14M+ in average salaries against an adjusted cap of $121M. At a time when the franchise QB's cap hit was about the same as in 2012. And the RB corps was taking up several million in space. And the OL was averaging close to what it will. And the aging defense still managed to have several veteran studs in the $4-8M cap hit range. Heck, they had 10% of cap tied up in dead cap that season.

The cap will remain fairly flat for the next 2 seasons, but it will jump dramatically thereafter, probably increasing in excess of 10% in 2014 and by at least 5% thereafter due to the new television deals.

I have no clue what the market for Lloyd is, I doubt Condon or BB do at this point, but unless it's in excess of his value here they won't have any trouble adding that piece if they choose to or a drafted (or undrafted) WR or two to the puzzle from a cap or cash perspective. And they will still have room for Branch as insurance, provided of course they move on from the failed and costly Ocho experiment. And they still will have room to add to the defense both in FA and the draft. As long as you accept and understand none of the pieces they add were likely to be of the overpaid, top tier, day 1 FA or top 10 draft variety either way. But that's more a principle or consistent value choice than a limit necessitated by imaginary cap constraints.

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everlong: has a point though...at that time those guys wern't on the wrong side of 30. You just cannot committ that much money to those guys.

parthasas said:

As long as we are going to "pay" the player, I would rather go after Colston or VJack. so, let us see how it unfolds.

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Colston and Jackson will probably be the two most expensive wide receivers on the market other than, possibly, Welker, and they are the two 'quality' receivers with the most red flags.

I'll pass on both, thanks.

Deus Irae said:

Colston and Jackson will probably be the two most expensive wide receivers on the market other than, possibly, Welker, and they are the two 'quality' receivers with the most red flags.

I'll pass on both, thanks.

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The good news is that there are a TON of excellent WR on the market this year, which should mean that (a) the Pats can get one or two for probably less than they could have last year, and (b) Welker's price probably will be a little depressed, given the number of quality guys out there. Here are some names:

V.Jackson
Welker
Wayne
Bowe
D.Jackson
Colston
Meacham
Lloyd
S. Johnson
Manningham
L. Robinson
Doucet
Garcon
Burress
Houshmandzadeh
S.Smith (Phi)

Re: Condon puts Pats on call

MoLewisrocks said:

Back in 2008 knowing they were facing a potential lockout looming after 2010 they paid Randy and Welker and Gaffney a combined $14M+ in average salaries against an adjusted cap of $121M. At a time when the franchise QB's cap hit was about the same as in 2012. And the RB corps was taking up several million in space. And the OL was averaging close to what it will. And the aging defense still managed to have several veteran studs in the $4-8M cap hit range. Heck, they had 10% of cap tied up in dead cap that season.

The cap will remain fairly flat for the next 2 seasons, but it will jump dramatically thereafter, probably increasing in excess of 10% in 2014 and by at least 5% thereafter due to the new television deals.

I have no clue what the market for Lloyd is, I doubt Condon or BB do at this point, but unless it's in excess of his value here they won't have any trouble adding that piece if they choose to or a drafted (or undrafted) WR or two to the puzzle from a cap or cash perspective. And they will still have room for Branch as insurance, provided of course they move on from the failed and costly Ocho experiment. And they still will have room to add to the defense both in FA and the draft. As long as you accept and understand none of the pieces they add were likely to be of the overpaid, top tier, day 1 FA or top 10 draft variety either way. But that's more a principle or consistent value choice than a limit necessitated by imaginary cap constraints.

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2008 Gaffney/Welker/Moss was three receivers @14M vs 2 receivers @15.5M projection. If they cut Ocho and can get Branch on the cheap and bring in a second or third rounder on the cheap coupled with how affordable the TEs are right now it's not out of the question.

As far as FA value I was projecting Welker off of the franchise tag, obviously. Lloyd I used average salary comps.

Nate Burleson 5M
Santana Moss 5M
Michael Crabree 5.3M
Donald Driver 5.7M
Joshua Cribbs 6.6M (obviously returns a major part of that)
Greg Jennings 6.7M
Anquan Bolden 7M
Steve Smith 7.3M
Darius Heyward-Bey 7.6M
Roddy White 8M
Miles Austin 8.1
Sydney Rice 8.2M
Andre Johnson 8.9M
Santonio LOL Holmes 9M
Calvin Johnson 9.2M (going to be a lot more)
Lee Evans 9.3M (LOLOLOLOLOLOL)
Brandon Marshall 9.4M
Devin Hester 10.4M (again kick returns)
Larry Fitzgerald 15M

I think Lloyd fits in that group of between 5-8M. So using 6 as my baseline.

Deus Irae said:

Colston and Jackson will probably be the two most expensive wide receivers on the market other than, possibly, Welker, and they are the two 'quality' receivers with the most red flags.

I'll pass on both, thanks.

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Agree. I'm not huge on signing another geriatric to play WR, but I have to think we'd be better off signing Lloyd and Wayne and devoting the difference (from signing one of the marquee WRs) toward addressing S, CB, OLB, DE.

aabtec said:

The Pats have lost the last two SB's to the Giants. Their SB wins are a distant memory.

The Pats need to start bringing in players and not just JAG's. The old days of just bringing in a bunch of players at a position does not work anymore.

This team needs play makers. BB won with the team BP and Carroll built.

His drafts have been mediocre. Trading down for future 1st rd picks has not helped.

Click to expand...

I think your presentation would be improved by the use of all caps. Perhaps some LOL's, emoticons, and random exclamation points would make you more right.

P.S. my vote is Garcon. Lloyd has the potential and the know-how in the system, but Lloyd is particularly risky. His down years haven't been down years; they've been six feet under years. His work ethic has been questioned in the past, and a player like that can lose Brady's trust quickly. Garcon has the speed and the versatility in terms of routes. Also, under Welker Directive 3.54A, he can't murder us if he's on our team.