Charlie Weis to approach NEs coaching staff for help in the offseason - Pathetic

[Michigan Dave]

Your bias is blinding you to the reality about the talent on that team. That's a horrible squad he's trying to coach.

My bias? Why would you think I have bias against ND? I do not. I don't mind them at all. I like going to SB on bye weeks to watch ND games. It's a great place.

That team has 3 5 stars, 27 4 stars and 39 3 stars on the roster right now. There is absolutely no reason for them to be losing like this. None. Compared to Ohio State, who has 4 5 stars, 38 4 stars, and 28 3 stars on the roster and is 11-1 and Big Ten champions. The difference? Coaching. Tressel is light years better than Weis.

http://rivals100.rivals.com/TeamRank.asp?postype=0&sort=0&year=2007

 

[vyrago]

I can almost guarantee you Belichick does not ask those guys for advice on how to coach successfully - Unless you have been living under a rock for the past 7 years,Belichick has done a pretty good job at coaching and I don't think it has been with the advice of any of the guys you mentioned - Do they talk? - Yes as friends - do they each ask how they can be better at thier job? - not likely.

I guess I'd give Belichick credit for more intelligence/humility than that. The day you think you don't need advice about how to do your job better is the day your I.Q. drops 50pts. and your job performance starts to suffer.

I was just reading a post about BB wanting to get an assistant's job to Paul Brown just to learn from him. because he had such great admiration and respect for Brown. I have also read that he has consulted Parcells on occarion, as well as Johnson.

I doubt that hunger to learn, to pick brains, to educate himself about every aspect of football, has ever left him. That's practically coded in his DNA.

I couldn't disagree more with your assertion.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Lore. Tom Zbikowski redshirted in 2003 and is currently a 5th year senior.




That's false as well. ND does have very high academic standards, but Lou Holtz got them in, and Charlie Weis is getting them in, too. Look at the top recruits, and ND is in the mix for most of them. Academics is definitely not an excuse for mediocrity.



Neither does Michigan. We've had 2 that I can remember in 15 years. OSU? Don't recall JuCos there either. JuCos are recruited chiefly by schools looking to rebuild quickly. They are not relied on by top programs to sustain excellence.



I would say playing Navy, Air Force, Stanford, Duke, etc. allow for weak spots as well. It's no surprise that Penn State dominated college football as an independent and has struggled since joining the Big Ten. As an independent, you can tailor your schedule to your liking. Schedule 1 or 2 big time games to get the national exposure, a couple of mid-level teams that look good on paper, and some fluff. When you join a conference, the mid-level and low-level teams are familiar with you and can gameplan much better.



Again, ridiculous. Look at ND's schedule this year. The "elite" teams out of the bunch are USC, Michigan and Penn State. The latter two are really not all that good. Then there are some mid-level teams like BC (who is worse than their record indicates), Purdue, GT and MSU. Finally, they have the fluff with Navy, Air Force, Stanford and Duke. It's the exact same as playing in the Big Ten. Hell, if ND joined the SEC, they would get smoked on a weekly basis.



Charlie has struggled not because of talent, but because he doesn't know what he is doing. As someone who has been in both college and pro football, I can tell you they are night and day. He took his college team through camp with minimal contact. He tried to install special gameplans. This isn't the NFL. ND can continue to bring in highly ranked classes. It doesn't matter. They have 25 rivals 4-5 star players on their roster right now, more than almost all of the teams they've lost to. You think Air Force is rocking a team of 4 stars?

1. Zbikowski never redshirted at ND. Go and check their official website and nowhere in the entry on him does the word "redshirt" appear. A full breakdown on ND's policy on this can be found here for the uninformed.

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/w0203/redshirt.html

2. Academics are in fact an obstacle to getting some players. I can't speak to how ND has changed their entrance requirements over the years (and neither can you) but it is in fact not only difficult to get into, it's hard to stay eligible once you're there. I never said that was an excuse for poor play this year. I said it was an obstacle Weis has to deal with that other college coaches don't. By the way, Lou Holtz got ND two years of probation by the NCAA for his "actions" while in South Bend. In other words, he cheated.

3. There are JUCOs starting at LSU right now. Are they a bad team trying to rebuild? Again, you're wrong. Virtually every SEC, Big 12 and PAC 10 school recruits JUCOs.

4. As I wrote before, this year's ND sched. is not as challenging as it has been, but typically ND has a tough schedule every year.

5. Again, I said Weis could have done a better job this year. Where did I say that these were "excuses" for poor play? The point was to illustrate why it's harder to win at ND than some think.

6. Obviously you haven't watched ND games. There is a glaring lack of talent on the field that everyone but you seems to notice. It's been written about, it's been talked about, it's been detailed ad naseum. Have you watched the games?

Finally, you're a Michigan fan so your objectivity toward all things ND easily comes into question. If I were you, I'd worry more about why your program is in disarray rather than why ND is struggling to beat traditionally solid teams like Air Force.

 

[Deus Irae]

My bias? Why would you think I have bias against ND? I do not. I don't mind them at all. I like going to SB on bye weeks to watch ND games. It's a great place.

That team has 3 5 stars, 27 4 stars and 39 3 stars on the roster right now. There is absolutely no reason for them to be losing like this. None. Compared to Ohio State, who has 4 5 stars, 38 4 stars, and 28 3 stars on the roster and is 11-1 and Big Ten champions. The difference? Coaching. Tressel is light years better than Weis.

http://rivals100.rivals.com/TeamRank.asp?postype=0&sort=0&year=2007

Numbers like these mean little in a case like this because of the 4/5 year rolling window for recruits. Weis' first year doesn't even bring him his first recruits. Weis' recruits don't even start coming through the door until year 2 of his time there. Then, the vast majority of those players don't even become impact starters until their junior years.

Weis was hired in December 2004, which means that his first recruiting class was 2005, and his players didn't even get on the field until 2006. This is 2007, meaning his recruits are only freshmen and sophomores. Willingham's players are still the 'key' players (juniors and seniors) and people are now seeing just how bad a recruiting job Ty did in his last two years at ND. Weis will have to put up with the last of Ty's players next season before finally having his recruits in place up and down the roster the year after.

 

[Lansdowne]

I don't see it as pathetic. Weis obviously is having a bad year, and he's looking to his mentor for wisdom. He doesn't want to lose his dream job. The worst thing he could do is not take advantage.

 

[maverick4]

Your bias is blinding you to the reality about the talent on that team. That's a horrible squad he's trying to coach.

Come on, it's clear Charlie has no understanding over coaching offensive line, defensive line, linebackers, defensive backs, and special teams. Since he doesn't know, he can't really supervise his assistant coaches over the job they're doing.

Notre Dame lost to Navy and Air Force for Christ sake, there is no excuse losing to 2 military academies with the talent ND has.

You sound delusional and completely crazy. A d-1 team should never lose to a military academy that doesn't recruit for athletes.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Come on, it's clear Charlie has no understanding over coaching offensive line, defensive line, linebackers, defensive backs, and special teams. Since he doesn't know, he can't really supervise his assistant coaches over the job they're doing.

Notre Dame lost to Navy and Air Force for Christ sake, there is no excuse losing to 2 military academies with the talent ND has.

Why is everyone dogging on the service academies? Do you hate America?

 

[Michigan Dave]

1. Zbikowski never redshirted at ND. Go and check their official website and nowhere in the entry on him does the word "redshirt" appear. A full breakdown on ND's policy on this can be found here for the uninformed.

http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/w0203/redshirt.html

Then please inform me on Zbikowski's 2003 season. What happened there? EDIT: I read your link. We do the same thing. We have a variety of players who redshirted as freshmen but were not invited back for a fifth year. Call it what you want. 5 to play 4 is the NCAA rule, and ND follows that.

2. Academics are in fact an obstacle to getting some players. I can't speak to how ND has changed their entrance requirements over the years (and neither can you) but it is in fact not only difficult to get into, it's hard to stay eligible once you're there. I never said that was an excuse for poor play this year. I said it was an obstacle Weis has to deal with that other college coaches don't. By the way, Lou Holtz got ND two years of probation by the NCAA for his "actions" while in South Bend. In other words, he cheated.

Actually, since I did recruiting in direct competition with ND, and was offered a position on staff at ND (albeit under Willingham) I can speak toward academics. They have great academics. The main obstacle at ND is the calculus requirement, but it doesn't impede their recruiting efforts. Charlie's last two classes go to show that. A lot of your more reputable schools will stay away from the riskier academic kids- Michigan, ND, etc. But ND is competing for the same kids as Michigan, USC, Florida, etc. That is a poor excuse, especially given ND's recruiting successes of late.

3. There are JUCOs starting at LSU right now. Are they a bad team trying to rebuild? Again, you're wrong. Virtually every SEC, Big 12 and PAC 10 school recruits JUCOs.

Michigan and Ohio State don't. K-State made a living off of JuCos, yes. I don't think USC has a great amount of JuCos on their roster. You don't need JuCos to be successful, much like you didn't need Prop 48s.

4. As I wrote before, this year's ND sched. is not as challenging as it has been, but typically ND has a tough schedule every year.

They do have a good schedule year in, year out. But it mirrors conference team schedules. One or two high quality opponents, a bunch of "Purdue-esque" teams that are good, but not great, and a couple of cupcakes.

5. Again, I said Weis could have done a better job this year. Where did I say that these were "excuses" for poor play? The point was to illustrate why it's harder to win at ND than some think.

Not you specifically, but it's an opinion of most ND fans here in the midwest that everything is Willingham's fault (despite him going to Washington and doing a good job rebuilding that mess.) It is not harder to win at ND than the other top schools. Each school has their unique challenges.

6. Obviously you haven't watched ND games. There is a glaring lack of talent on the field that everyone but you seems to notice. It's been written about, it's been talked about, it's been detailed ad naseum. Have you watched the games?

There is a lack of execution. The line is undersized, but that is in part due to the philosophy they had tried to implement of quicker, more agile linemen. It failed. Are they matching up with USC? Of course not. But it's not the USC or Michigan games we're talking about. It's Purdue, Michigan State, Air Force, Navy, etc. that have considerably less talent than ND, but pounded the Irish this year.

Finally, you're a Michigan fan so your objectivity toward all things ND easily comes into question. If I were you, I'd worry more about why your program is in disarray rather than why ND is struggling to beat traditionally solid teams like Air Force.

That's ridiculous. I'm perfectly capable of being objective, especially about ND. Hell, I give Ohio State tons of credit and I hate them. I like ND. Nice cheap shot about our program. Disarray? A 4 loss season is a travesty in Ann Arbor, and we're not making any excuses about it like a certain fan base in South Bend. For as horrible as this season has been, we were playing for an outright conference championship and BCS berth last Saturday. Regardless, Lloyd is out, Les Miles will be in, and things will be OK. We have continuity in talent, another great class coming in, and a coach willing run something other than outs and off-tackle left. The future is very bright in Ann Arbor.

 

[QuiGon]

I know BB is the best but Charlie should be able to do it on his own now.

You bash Weis and say he is just the product of "Brady and Quinn", and then in the very next post you say "BB is the best". Tell us... how has Belichick done in his NFL career without Brady...? Is BB just a product of having Tom Brady...?

 

[maverick4]

Why is everyone dogging on the service academies? QUOTE]

What the heck are you talking about?
We're talking about FOOTBALL here, and god bless the service academies but they should never beat any D-1 school that recruits every spot on the roster.

It is inexcusable that Notre Dame lost to Navy (first time in 40+ years) and Air Force.

What is wrong with of you people, you sound like crazy people.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Why is everyone dogging on the service academies? Do you hate America?

Because they lack the resources to compete with the top football programs. You are not required to root for Navy to win football games in order to be a Patriotic American.

 

[QuiGon]

I've followed college football since the 60's & 70's. I know for a fact ND is at the top of many of the best recruits list of places to play.

Bullcrap. This ain't the 50's. Top recruits don't want to go to Universities where they actually have to do ridiculous things like attend classes and get decent grades.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Why is everyone dogging on the service academies? QUOTE]

What the heck are you talking about?
We're talking about FOOTBALL here, and god bless the service academies but they should never beat any D-1 school that recruits every spot on the roster.

It is inexcusable that Notre Dame lost to Navy (first time in 40+ years) and Air Force.

What is wrong with of you people, you sound like crazy people.

Oh relax. Don't brew a fondu in your BVDs. I was kidding.

 

[maverick4]

It's fine that Charlie is using his friends, he should do this to save his butt, hell Belichick goes fishing or hangs out with people all the time in the offseason to learn something new in coaching or drafting.

But the bigger problem is that Charlie is just an OC play caller, he doesn't have an understanding in order to coach or supervise his assistants for the O-Line, D-Line, linebackers, secondary, special teams, etc.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Because they lack the resources to compete with the top football programs. You are not required to root for Navy to win football games in order to be a Patriotic American.

They call Dallas 'America's Team' if thats the case and you have to like them as an american,then I am a traitor.

 

[maverick4]

Bullcrap. This ain't the 50's. Top recruits don't want to go to Universities where they actually have to do ridiculous things like attend classes and get decent grades.

Notre Dome homers need to stop whining about the academic stuff. There are LOTS of quality academic schools that have good football programs, look at USC and Boston College.

Even if Notre Dame's recruiting classes aren't top 10 but rather top 50, it is a complete embarassment to ever lose to Navy AND Air Force in the same season.

 

[Michigan Dave]

Bullcrap. This ain't the 50's. Top recruits don't want to go to Universities where they actually have to do ridiculous things like attend classes and get decent grades.

That is just false, and really quite insulting to those involved in NCAA athletics. A good amount of my close friends are current NFL players or former college players who believe it or not, did that ridiculous thing like attend classes and get decent grades. It was nice seeing a bunch of guys prior to the OSU game on Saturday. Our team was filled with guys who went on to be doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc. But hey, go ahead and judge based on a ridiculous stereotype. Let one or two guys who make the news formulate your opinion.

 

[QuiGon]

I would say playing Navy, Air Force, Stanford, Duke, etc. allow for weak spots as well. It's no surprise that Penn State dominated college football as an independent and has struggled since joining the Big Ten. As an independent, you can tailor your schedule to your liking. Schedule 1 or 2 big time games to get the national exposure, a couple of mid-level teams that look good on paper, and some fluff. When you join a conference, the mid-level and low-level teams are familiar with you and can gameplan much better.

Well at least Notre Dame hasn't ever humiliated themselves by scheduling a cupcake Div 1-AA (or, if you prefer, "playoff subdivision") school - and then lost to that team at home.

Again, ridiculous. Look at ND's schedule this year. The "elite" teams out of the bunch are USC, Michigan and Penn State. The latter two are really not all that good.

You seem not to be aware that non-conference schedules are made years (if not decades) in advance. ND has annual games against USC, Michigan and Michigan State as well as regularly scheduling teams like Penn St., Tennessee, UCLA, BC or Nebraska. It's tough to sit here today and predict who will be a powerhouse in 2021.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

Then please inform me on Zbikowski's 2003 season. What happened there? EDIT: I read your link. We do the same thing. We have a variety of players who redshirted as freshmen but were not invited back for a fifth year. Call it what you want. 5 to play 4 is the NCAA rule, and ND follows that.



Actually, since I did recruiting in direct competition with ND, and was offered a position on staff at ND (albeit under Willingham) I can speak toward academics. They have great academics. The main obstacle at ND is the calculus requirement, but it doesn't impede their recruiting efforts. Charlie's last two classes go to show that. A lot of your more reputable schools will stay away from the riskier academic kids- Michigan, ND, etc. But ND is competing for the same kids as Michigan, USC, Florida, etc. That is a poor excuse, especially given ND's recruiting successes of late.



Michigan and Ohio State don't. K-State made a living off of JuCos, yes. I don't think USC has a great amount of JuCos on their roster. You don't need JuCos to be successful, much like you didn't need Prop 48s.



They do have a good schedule year in, year out. But it mirrors conference team schedules. One or two high quality opponents, a bunch of "Purdue-esque" teams that are good, but not great, and a couple of cupcakes.



Not you specifically, but it's an opinion of most ND fans here in the midwest that everything is Willingham's fault (despite him going to Washington and doing a good job rebuilding that mess.) It is not harder to win at ND than the other top schools. Each school has their unique challenges.



There is a lack of execution. The line is undersized, but that is in part due to the philosophy they had tried to implement of quicker, more agile linemen. It failed. Are they matching up with USC? Of course not. But it's not the USC or Michigan games we're talking about. It's Purdue, Michigan State, Air Force, Navy, etc. that have considerably less talent than ND, but pounded the Irish this year.



That's ridiculous. I'm perfectly capable of being objective, especially about ND. Hell, I give Ohio State tons of credit and I hate them. I like ND. Nice cheap shot about our program. Disarray? A 4 loss season is a travesty in Ann Arbor, and we're not making any excuses about it like a certain fan base in South Bend. For as horrible as this season has been, we were playing for an outright conference championship and BCS berth last Saturday. Regardless, Lloyd is out, Les Miles will be in, and things will be OK. We have continuity in talent, another great class coming in, and a coach willing run something other than outs and off-tackle left. The future is very bright in Ann Arbor.

I never said you had to have JUCOs to be successful. I did say good teams reccruit them to fill weaknesses, which is in fact true. ND doesn't recruit JUCOs at all, and frankly, they could use some about now.

Where is this talent you speak of? How many current ND players are 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th round NFL picks? I don't know that I could point to one.

Your "the talent is there" argument is decimiated by the fact that the players starting for ND now were ranked very low when they were recruited. I watch their games and see a bunch of stiffs who couldn't start at Oklahoma or Michigan, for that matter.

When you have stiffs, it's hard to beat anyone. When you do a subpar job of coaching (as Weis has admitted this year) and have stiffs, it's no surprise ND can't beat Purdue.

Also, if LSU wins a national title this year (a strong possibility) Miles won't be going to Michigan, regardless of his personal history there.

 

[QuiGon]

That is just false, and really quite insulting to those involved in NCAA athletics.

Yeah... I'm really out of line by suggesting that big school athletics cut corner with classes

I think you're too close to the situation to get a good, unbiased look at things.