The 300lb "What If" in the corner of the room

[JJDChE]

This is a dumb thread. 1.5 seasons isn't enough to evaluate the two guys.

 

[jman924]

**How do we know the Colts had Maroney graded higher??
**What was it Simms and Nantz spoke of on Sunday?? That the Colts actually had Addai as their guy?? Whom to believe?
**What Colts backs have looked good for the Colts, but bad elsewhere? Are we talking Dungy era??
**Why not give credit where credit is due?
**Comparing Indy's "system" to Denver?? Nice complement, I suppose, but it's not like a revolving door here.

I don't get it.

I believe Peyton called up Brady and told him, "you guys stole our Running Back." or something close.

Not a bad consolation prize though.

 

[oldskool138]

This is a dumb thread. 1.5 seasons isn't enough to evaluate the two guys.

Was 1.5 seasons enough to evaluate Seymour?

Like I keep saying, what is the minimum time you need to evaluate players? 2 seasons? 3? 5?

 

[Ishdul]

Was 1.5 seasons enough to evaluate Seymour?

Like I keep saying, what is the minimum time you need to evaluate players? 2 seasons? 3? 5?

To fully evaluate Seymour? It's a bit different... I think in the middle of year two was right when the run defense had completely collapsed. I don't think people say Seymour in quite the same light as they did in the next two years, but obviously he would have gotten a pretty high evaluation even 1.5 years into it.

To evaluate a player I'd say you'd either need 2-3 years of damning evidence (i.e. absolutely unplayable as a starter/can't get off the bench) or 4-5 years of partial evidence (hasn't quite fulfilled expectations, improvement deemed unlikely). Maroney goes into the latter category.

 

[PonyExpress]

Was 1.5 seasons enough to evaluate Seymour?

Like I keep saying, what is the minimum time you need to evaluate players? 2 seasons? 3? 5?

It varies based on circumstances. Minimum 3 years, with one exception: If the player is an integral part of a Sb winning team, then the draft pick is justified, no matter what happens afterwards.

 

[cstjohn17]

Because I am lazy I will respond to several topical posts at once (Maroney & Merriweather) . Basically I was not in favor of either pick because of philosophy, it is nothing personnel. My thought about drafting:

1. RBs - Are not worth a first round pick unless the back is 'special', a RBs productivity is directly related to number of touches. In most cases teams could use a 2nd or 3rd round pick and get 1-2 maybe 3 good years and then go back to the well.
2. Safeties - Very surprising to see the Pats take the 4th safety in the draft in the first round (Landry, Nelson, Griffin, Merriweather), especially at free safety which in general is a pretty easy position to fill.

Addai versus Maroney - It can be called system if it makes people feel better, but at this point Addai has been more productive, durable, decisive and a much better blocker & receriver. That doesn't mean Maroney is horse crap, it just means Addai has done well and the Colts found a guy who would excel in their system.

The jury is still out on Maroney, he has a very good burst and lays the lumber of tacklers. I think his injury last year really set him back, he needed to add more bulk in the offseason but never had a chance because of the bum shoulder. Maroney makes me nervous as hell the way he slams into guys and leaves himself exposed at the end of runs. As the weather gets worse the Pats will need a good running attack, my hope is that they have paced Maroney enough that he can really step up his production in the final part of the season.

Merriweather - Too early to tell, appears to be very good tackler but based on the very limitted glimpses of his coverage he has a long way to go. In a couple of the pre-season games he was lined up over a TE, the TE faked outside and curled inside. It happened twice in one game and again in the next one, it was not impressive, no adjustments were made. I think he will be fine, maybe not special. As a Safety at least 60-70% of the job is about tackling and at least he can do that. Coverage takes time and he is also very young, so lets see how he looks at the end of 08 and 09 before we nail him to the cross.

As a side note, don't diss Baker. BB and Co. really see something in this guy, the cut Hawkins and left him on the roster even though he was going to miss at least 2-3 games to start the season. Now they have seen enough to think he is the 2nd or 3rd option at FS. The coaches are at the practices and they must like what they see.

 

[He Ban Me]

I believe Peyton called up Brady and told him, "you guys stole our Running Back." or something close.

Not a bad consolation prize though.

Just wanting to be sure I understand what we are basing this premise on. So, Manning calls Brady, and that seals it?? Funny, cause on Sunday, the crew spoke of how the Colts had Addai as their top guy to begin with. But, I guess it really doesn't matter at this point. It IS amazing how as soon as something is picked up that suits the fancy here, it become irrefutable gospel, and all else is a lie

 

[jman924]

Just wanting to be sure I understand what we are basing this premise on. So, Manning calls Brady, and that seals it?? Funny, cause on Sunday, the crew spoke of how the Colts had Addai as their top guy to begin with. But, I guess it really doesn't matter at this point. It IS amazing how as soon as something is picked up that suits the fancy here, it become irrefutable gospel, and all else is a lie

How many times did Simms and crew say it?

Was it once.

 

[He Ban Me]

How many times did Simms and crew say it?

Was it once.

YUP! Not saying it was fact. I mean, I'm sure they had that conversation. But who knows truely where they had him graded. HOWEVER, i think I would take that conversation over some supposed phone call between Manning and Brady.

 

[sebman2112]

**How do we know the Colts had Maroney graded higher??
**What was it Simms and Nantz spoke of on Sunday?? That the Colts actually had Addai as their guy?? Whom to believe?
**What Colts backs have looked good for the Colts, but bad elsewhere? Are we talking Dungy era??
**Why not give credit where credit is due?
**Comparing Indy's "system" to Denver?? Nice complement, I suppose, but it's not like a revolving door here.

I don't get it.

It's a known fact the Colts and other teams had Maroney graded higher, and it came from more than one Colts mouth. Only later the Colts changed their tune, saying they wanted Addai all along, which was complete horse sh*t!

Edge has looked better this year, but until this point he wasn't 'great' in Arizona, and even this year he's not on the same level he was in Indy. Dominic Rhodes had some pretty damn good games for the Colts last year (you forget the SB?), yet this year he sucks. Keith went from being a nobody to pretty effective in that system. I could go on with another backup you probably haven't thought of, but that's for another time

 

[sebman2112]

Because I am lazy I will respond to several topical posts at once (Maroney & Merriweather) . Basically I was not in favor of either pick because of philosophy, it is nothing personnel. My thought about drafting:

1. RBs - Are not worth a first round pick unless the back is 'special', a RBs productivity is directly related to number of touches. In most cases teams could use a 2nd or 3rd round pick and get 1-2 maybe 3 good years and then go back to the well.
2. Safeties - Very surprising to see the Pats take the 4th safety in the draft in the first round (Landry, Nelson, Griffin, Merriweather), especially at free safety which in general is a pretty easy position to fill.

Addai versus Maroney - It can be called system if it makes people feel better, but at this point Addai has been more productive, durable, decisive and a much better blocker & receriver. That doesn't mean Maroney is horse crap, it just means Addai has done well and the Colts found a guy who would excel in their system.

The jury is still out on Maroney, he has a very good burst and lays the lumber of tacklers. I think his injury last year really set him back, he needed to add more bulk in the offseason but never had a chance because of the bum shoulder. Maroney makes me nervous as hell the way he slams into guys and leaves himself exposed at the end of runs. As the weather gets worse the Pats will need a good running attack, my hope is that they have paced Maroney enough that he can really step up his production in the final part of the season.

Merriweather - Too early to tell, appears to be very good tackler but based on the very limitted glimpses of his coverage he has a long way to go. In a couple of the pre-season games he was lined up over a TE, the TE faked outside and curled inside. It happened twice in one game and again in the next one, it was not impressive, no adjustments were made. I think he will be fine, maybe not special. As a Safety at least 60-70% of the job is about tackling and at least he can do that. Coverage takes time and he is also very young, so lets see how he looks at the end of 08 and 09 before we nail him to the cross.

As a side note, don't diss Baker. BB and Co. really see something in this guy, the cut Hawkins and left him on the roster even though he was going to miss at least 2-3 games to start the season. Now they have seen enough to think he is the 2nd or 3rd option at FS. The coaches are at the practices and they must like what they see.

While I don't completely agree with some of your thoughts on the two (Maroney & Meriweather), I must say you've provided one of the more thought out, and balanced arguements I've seen regarding the two.

I agree that we likely won't see Meriweather's full ability until at least sometime in 2008, and then he might not fully develope until sometime in 2009.

I also like your mention of Baker, who I've previously pointed out as not being that bad, and I thought he actually played pretty good/decent against the Redskins.

 

[He Ban Me]

It's a known fact the Colts and other teams had Maroney graded higher, and it came from more than one Colts mouth. Only later the Colts changed their tune, saying they wanted Addai all along, which was complete horse sh*t!

Edge has looked better this year, but until this point he wasn't 'great' in Arizona, and even this year he's not on the same level he was in Indy. Dominic Rhodes had some pretty damn good games for the Colts last year (you forget the SB?), yet this year he sucks. Keith went from being a nobody to pretty effective in that system. I could go on with another backup you probably haven't thought of, but that's for another time

Ahhh, "everybody knows it"!! Yes, this is good. Cause "everybody" has inside info on Polian and his draft board??

Many folks thought Edge was crazy heading west. He cashed in and plopped himself into the middle of a BAD O-Line. Rhodes did have some nice games. The 1-2 punch worked well, but let's face it, Oakland overpaid. He was no Edge. In Oakland, he's served 4 games, and has hardly played since. I think he has 17 carries on the year. Keith was a nobody in Canada, but a pretty well known somebody up there. Didn't Steve Young play in Canada, or the USFL?? What about Warren Moon?? Why don't they just audtion ALL the RB's in that league, and sign 3-4 of them?? I mean, if ANYONE can do it, why'd they pick him??

 

[Iron Helmet]

Addai has been the more productive back to this point. That is no proof that he will continue to be the more productive back going forward. That leap of logic is not at all obvious, nor do I agree with it, having evaluated these two players closely. There are numerous reasons to believe the contrary.

1) Addai has benefited from the nature of the Colts passing game, which has been historic and allowed the rb to face diminished fronts. Going forward, the Indy offense may begin to slow down. The reasons are a) Harrison is 35 and has sustained a possible chronic knee injury. b) Gonzalez is currently injured with a lingering hand problem and has not shown himself to be a star c) the LT position has been weakened by the retirement of Glenn and Ugoh was not an elite pass protector even before his injury d) the Colts have to either franchise or resign Bob Sanders and/or Dallas Clark. It is unlikely they will resign both. If they choose Sanders, that will also hurt the passing game. These factors suggest that going forward the Colt passing game may not sustain its old levels which will affect their opponents' defensive game plans and adversely affect the Colt running game. Conversely, the Pats passing game, provided Moss resigns, looks to be emerging into its prime, and should sustain itself over the next few years. This should allow Maroney to face diminished fronts going forward, as Addai has in the past.

Your assumption is based on the Colts standing pat and that the Pats won't (your Moss signing), which is a bit naive. If anything, they have shown through the last several years that they can backfill departing players very effectively. Addai is a case in point, replacing EJ. And when necessary, they will spend the cash. See Reggie Wayne. Having watched Ugoh, it seems to me he was developing quite nicely as a solid LT.

2) Addai was an all-purpose back at LSU, a receiving threat when Alley Broussard was the lead back. Maroney was not used in the passing game at Minnesota. Thus, Addai entered the NFL as ready product in the passing game. Maroney was a younger more raw player. Still, Maroney has demonstrated dynamic receving skills when given the opportunity vs. GB last season (TD), vs Chicago and vs. Washignton this season. This is a skill set the Pats will exploit more as Maroney becomes more seasoned. He is catching up with Addai in this respect.

"Catching up"?!?!? Lets see...Maroney has 2 catches this year, come on McFLY! By the way, Addai has 22.

3) I respect Addai's tremendous heart and fearless play. But he has a tendency to take enormous hits. An example is the first play of the season, when NO almost knocked him out for the year. Then he missed a game this season with another back/shoulder injury vs TB. IMO the Colts have begun to rely on Addai as their passing game has become less effective, and I expect him to take a beating over the rest of the schedule, vs defenses like Jacksonville, Tennessee, Houston the rest of the way and going forward in his career. In college I watched him many times and he has a tendency to take enormous blows. Addai has already won a SB for the Colts, and more than earned the respect of football fans nation wide. But IMO he will have a relatively short career defined by toughness and heart. In contrast, I believe Maroney, a younger player by 2 years, has been brought along slowly by BB out of respect for his enormous potential. He has been careful not to overuse him before MAroney reaches his physical prime. Maroney is a very smart player, developing physically and mentally, whereas Addai is a finished product.

Maroney takes as many hits if not more than Addai. His running style is conducive to big hits. And Addai is still standing...Maroney has not. And to say Addai is a finished product is premature. Does Maroney have potential? Yes. However, he might be made of glass, which could render his potential useless.

With these factors in mind, I believe Maroney will be the more productive player going forward.


Kool Aid at its best...

 

[Remix 6]

Addai has been the more productive back to this point. That is no proof that he will continue to be the more productive back going forward. That leap of logic is not at all obvious, nor do I agree with it, having evaluated these two players closely. There are numerous reasons to believe the contrary.

1) Addai has benefited from the nature of the Colts passing game, which has been historic and allowed the rb to face diminished fronts. Going forward, the Indy offense may begin to slow down. The reasons are a) Harrison is 35 and has sustained a possible chronic knee injury. b) Gonzalez is currently injured with a lingering hand problem and has not shown himself to be a star c) the LT position has been weakened by the retirement of Glenn and Ugoh was not an elite pass protector even before his injury d) the Colts have to either franchise or resign Bob Sanders and/or Dallas Clark. It is unlikely they will resign both. If they choose Sanders, that will also hurt the passing game. These factors suggest that going forward the Colt passing game may not sustain its old levels which will affect their opponents' defensive game plans and adversely affect the Colt running game. Conversely, the Pats passing game, provided Moss resigns, looks to be emerging into its prime, and should sustain itself over the next few years. This should allow Maroney to face diminished fronts going forward, as Addai has in the past.

Your assumption is based on the Colts standing pat and that the Pats won't (your Moss signing), which is a bit naive. If anything, they have shown through the last several years that they can backfill departing players very effectively. Addai is a case in point, replacing EJ. And when necessary, they will spend the cash. See Reggie Wayne. Having watched Ugoh, it seems to me he was developing quite nicely as a solid LT.

2) Addai was an all-purpose back at LSU, a receiving threat when Alley Broussard was the lead back. Maroney was not used in the passing game at Minnesota. Thus, Addai entered the NFL as ready product in the passing game. Maroney was a younger more raw player. Still, Maroney has demonstrated dynamic receving skills when given the opportunity vs. GB last season (TD), vs Chicago and vs. Washignton this season. This is a skill set the Pats will exploit more as Maroney becomes more seasoned. He is catching up with Addai in this respect.

"Catching up"?!?!? Lets see...Maroney has 2 catches this year, come on McFLY! By the way, Addai has 22.

3) I respect Addai's tremendous heart and fearless play. But he has a tendency to take enormous hits. An example is the first play of the season, when NO almost knocked him out for the year. Then he missed a game this season with another back/shoulder injury vs TB. IMO the Colts have begun to rely on Addai as their passing game has become less effective, and I expect him to take a beating over the rest of the schedule, vs defenses like Jacksonville, Tennessee, Houston the rest of the way and going forward in his career. In college I watched him many times and he has a tendency to take enormous blows. Addai has already won a SB for the Colts, and more than earned the respect of football fans nation wide. But IMO he will have a relatively short career defined by toughness and heart. In contrast, I believe Maroney, a younger player by 2 years, has been brought along slowly by BB out of respect for his enormous potential. He has been careful not to overuse him before MAroney reaches his physical prime. Maroney is a very smart player, developing physically and mentally, whereas Addai is a finished product.

Maroney takes as many hits if not more than Addai. His running style is conducive to big hits. And Addai is still standing...Maroney has not. And to say Addai is a finished product is premature. Does Maroney have potential? Yes. However, he might be made of glass, which could render his potential useless.

With these factors in mind, I believe Maroney will be the more productive player going forward.


Kool Aid at its best...

lol at you thinking that pulled groin, knee injury make u "out of glass"

its not like he broke a bone from a hit. he hasnt gotten laid out.

 

[PonyExpress]

Your assumption is based on the Colts standing pat and that the Pats won't (your Moss signing), which is a bit naive. If anything, they have shown through the last several years that they can backfill departing players very effectively. Addai is a case in point, replacing EJ. And when necessary, they will spend the cash. See Reggie Wayne. Having watched Ugoh, it seems to me he was developing quite nicely as a solid LT.

Having watched Ugoh in college and this season, my conclusion is that he is a fine run blocker and an ordinary pass blocker. Indianapolis has struggled when resorting to free agency to fill holes (see Corey Simon). Polian has admitted as much, that the reason he prefers to build in the draft is because he has struck out in free agency. Marvin Harrisons do not grow on trees. Gonzalez has no chance of being that player.

"Catching up"?!?!? Lets see...Maroney has 2 catches this year, come on McFLY! By the way, Addai has 22.

How many catches did Maroney have last season? Did you watch the GB game? Did you watch the Chicago game? Did you watch what he did vs. Washington? Maroney's pass protection and catching ability have improved greatly, fool. Given more opportunities (opportunities which go to kevin Faulk) Maroney would excel in the passing game. it just so happens the Pats have a different division of labor on their offense.

Maroney takes as many hits if not more than Addai. His running style is conducive to big hits. And Addai is still standing...Maroney has not. And to say Addai is a finished product is premature. Does Maroney have potential? Yes. However, he might be made of glass, which could render his potential useless.

So my opinion of Addai is premature.. what about your opinion of Maroney, genius?

Kool Aid at its best...

This kid has had no off-field problems, has never said a bad thing to the press, has given his best effort at all times, playing with a severe injury through the playoffs last season. I guess you don't have the patience to see how he develops at the ripe age of 22 before passing judgment. With so little patience I wonder how you survived the early 90s.

 

[sebman2112]

Ahhh, "everybody knows it"!! Yes, this is good. Cause "everybody" has inside info on Polian and his draft board??

Many folks thought Edge was crazy heading west. He cashed in and plopped himself into the middle of a BAD O-Line. Rhodes did have some nice games. The 1-2 punch worked well, but let's face it, Oakland overpaid. He was no Edge. In Oakland, he's served 4 games, and has hardly played since. I think he has 17 carries on the year. Keith was a nobody in Canada, but a pretty well known somebody up there. Didn't Steve Young play in Canada, or the USFL?? What about Warren Moon?? Why don't they just audtion ALL the RB's in that league, and sign 3-4 of them?? I mean, if ANYONE can do it, why'd they pick him??

This is a pretty jackassed troll post on your part. I didn't say "everyone knows" I said it's a known fact, and that it came from the mouth of more than one Colt. Nice how you overlooked that part...

Dominic Rhodes had some very nice games for the Colts, and he probably could have won the SB MVP. Thing is, he sucks in Oakland, and hasn't received those carries because of his struggles. Also, Edge went to a team with a somewhat bad O-line, but truly great RB's (as Colts fans used to talk about him) can make an O-line better. Edge hasn't looked nearly as good in Arizona, even with them changing their schemes, and O-line. Don't use Warren Moon, and Steve Young. That was a different time, and they were QB's not RB's. Keith looks like a very good RB in the Colts system, but I doubt he'd be anything but a jag in most systems. I'm not saying Addai isn't good mind you, I'm simply saying their system makes him better. If you don't think Maroney would also rape in that system, than your dreaming. What's funny, is if anything I'm saying the colts have built a very good system, but you're not able to realize this.

 

[PATRIOT64]

I personally don't think Maroney is that good of a pro so far and the stats don't really change my opinion - I think he is slightly above average,I think he is a hard runner but most times falls flat when initially getting tackled and is not elusive as Addai IMO,
However Get both Addai and Maroney in the open field and the edge goes to MO - Maroney is a powerhouse in the open field but thats the only edge I give him between the two.

Its irrelevant to whom Indy wanted,They got the better guy until proven otherwise - In fact even Jones-Drew in Jacksonville is a better overall player right now IMO -

Thinking Maroney is the best of the 2006 bunch is Homer and Kool Aid stuff,I watch both guys many times and not once do I think Maroney stands out on top,And this comes from a Pats fan who has seen the good,bad and the ugly backs on this team for 30 years.

I am not high up nor have I been on Maroney despite the injury setbacks,I think he will continue to have these types of nagging injuries over much of his career and I would be shocked if he is still a RB on this team in 3 or 4 years unless something drastically changes,Why do I have this opinion? - just a hunch

I would like to see a 150 yard or 2 game from him to prove I may be underating him,It would be nice to see for a change,But this offense is pass oriented this year so I doubt it will happen in 2007

 

[speed]

Looking on from the outside in. I've always liked LM's running style, it has that home run hitter feel to it. He's struggled with injuries and NE is so potent in the pass, its gonna be hard for him to get 25 carries a game, which just by the nature means his opportunities to get the big one is limited. When Addai ran that pass in before half that seems more like a Maroney play to me. Its a little scary because Maroney, imho, is a guy you need to get out in the flat because he's great in the open field and BB hasn't even got the chance to use that weapontry yet.

As far as production, Addai this year, so far, is one of the best in the league. He is doing things I would have never guessed after 3/4 the way through last season.

You don't need to hear from a Colts fan how good Addai is, but when Maroney is healthy he's very scary.

It's really not a fair comparison at this point due to time and offensive style, so far.

I would guess if NE keeps rolling and Maroney stays healthy that he'll show how good he really is and will be in the discussion as to who are the best backs in the league, but I like the way Maroney runs so I'm biased a bit.

Nothing that hasn't already been said, just echoing it from another teams fans perspective.

 

[Pedrorocks458]

I personally don't think Maroney is that good of a pro so far and the stats don't really change my opinion - I think he is slightly above average,I think he is a hard runner but most times falls flat when initially getting tackled and is not elusive as Addai IMO,
However Get both Addai and Maroney in the open field and the edge goes to MO - Maroney is a powerhouse in the open field but thats the only edge I give him between the two.

Its irrelevant to whom Indy wanted,They got the better guy until proven otherwise - In fact even Jones-Drew in Jacksonville is a better overall player right now IMO -

Thinking Maroney is the best of the 2006 bunch is Homer and Kool Aid stuff,I watch both guys many times and not once do I think Maroney stands out on top,And this comes from a Pats fan who has seen the good,bad and the ugly backs on this team for 30 years.

I am not high up nor have I been on Maroney despite the injury setbacks,I think he will continue to have these types of nagging injuries over much of his career and I would be shocked if he is still a RB on this team in 3 or 4 years unless something drastically changes,Why do I have this opinion? - just a hunch

I would like to see a 150 yard or 2 game from him to prove I may be underating him,It would be nice to see for a change,But this offense is pass oriented this year so I doubt it will happen in 2007

I don't like stats....I just have hunches. Forgive us if we take your $.02 for approximately its monetary worth.

 

[danny88]

I don't like stats....I just have hunches. Forgive us if we take your $.02 for approximately its monetary worth.

Yet another homer in total denial. Your ypc stats stats dont mean crap. Thats all you have! Lomo has no td's , he has yet to have a big game vs BAD defensive teams, he does not catch the ball , and to top it off he is hurt way to much. Yea Lomo has a nice ypc. We also have a monster passing game which gives him the better ypc stat. Thats when the guy actually touches the rock. No td's after nine games for a "star" first round back? With this passing game? Oh please.

I hope he can overcome this. If not he is not a starting back on this team in a few years. We need a guy who is dependable. Woo is a horse. Worthy of being picked in the first round.

Marshawn Lynch is a back worthy of his first round tag. Addai is worthy. Petterson is worthy. Jones frekin Drew who was picked in the second round is better then Maroney right now.