Hightower/Collins

[PatsBoy12]

The way I see it, and maybe I'm wrong, there's very few things that High does that Collins can't do or doesn't do already. Can the same really be said conversely? Can High do everything that Collins can do? I don't think so. Again, I want to make it clear that I want BOTH guys. But removing feelings and just trying to be as objective as I can be, High is the more replaceable of the two.

To the poster who mentioned Tedy B. in comparison to High...you're absolutely right. But that there strengthens my argument a bit as far as on the field type of player. High is your thumper. He's the guy you want in the game if you are facing a Lynch type, for instance. But how many of those guys exist truly? This is a pass first league now and you need LB's who can move in space, cover large amounts of field quickly and cover RB's and TE's. High does a little of all of those things (really improved in ideas coverage since entering the league), but not like Collins. Neither is particularly great in man coverage to be fair, though is evident they've worked on it. Anyway, did you see what Collins was doing on Thursday night. He was literally everywhere - INT for a TD, plays in the backfield, pressuring the QB. I don't know. I see more there than High. I think High is much closer to his plateau than Collins. But I'm just a coach at home in front of my TV.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree with OP; I was confident that one of them would get locked up long-term over the offseason. I'm surprised and a little nervous that it didn't happen. We already lost Jones in anticipation of what this upcoming offseason will bring, the thought of losing more really sucks.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I dont know how this is funny its very possible Butler out of the three is the one to walk

Of course it is possible. Anything is, especially with BB. It's just not as probable as your initial post asserts. There's a difference between what you want to see happen and what actually makes sense. This is a passing league and you need guys who can cover. The same way a pass rush helps cover guys is the same way cover guys can help pass rushers. Go back and watch the 2014 SB as a perfect illustration and how many times Wilson had to hold onto the ball in the first quarter especially because there just weren't guys open. He didn't complete his first pass that game until something like 5:31 left in the second quarter, which was just 20 seconds or so from being a new record. Hell, Revis was one of the guys who got credited a sack when Wilson had to pull the ball down and scramble on one of the plays.

You mention hungry young guys in the secondary as if that necessarily means any of them will develop into Butler. Do you even realize how lucky we are that Butler developed into Butler? He almost was left off the final roster in 2014. Picture that. Then picture how he saved the Patriots in the Super Bowl LONG before the last play. He played lights out that whole fourth quarter. Do you remember how foolish and inadequate both Arrington and Ryan were and how they both got benched? Do you recall Ryan giving away that stupid TD with 6 seconds before half after Gronk caught the TD to put NE up 14-7 and a crucial third down completion on Seattle's final drive? It was Butler making all the plays, especially considering Seattle was intently picking on him. Even that miracle catch was a great play by Butler, first getting his hands on the ball before having the presence of mind to make the tackle, while Harmon went jumping hurdles for some reason. He followed that up with a Pro Bowl season, covering extremely well some of the best receivers the game has to offer. Remember how afraid most people were before the season started?

Please, just at least try to be somewhat more objective and open minded...and I'm really not trying to be disrespectful in saying that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The way I see it, and maybe I'm wrong, there's very few things that High does that Collins can't do or doesn't do already. Can the same really be said conversely? Can High do everything that Collins can do? I don't think so. Again, I want to make it clear that I want BOTH guys. But removing feelings and just trying to be as objective as I can be, High is the more replaceable of the two.

To the poster who mentioned Tedy B. in comparison to High...you're absolutely right. But that there strengthens my argument a bit as far as on the field type of player. High is your thumper. He's the guy you want in the game if you are facing a Lynch type, for instance. But how many of those guys exist truly? This is a pass first league now and you need LB's who can move in space, cover large amounts of field quickly and cover RB's and TE's. High does a little of all of those things (really improved in ideas coverage since entering the league), but not like Collins. Neither is particularly great in man coverage to be fair, though is evident they've worked on it. Anyway, did you see what Collins was doing on Thursday night. He was literally everywhere - INT for a TD, plays in the backfield, pressuring the QB. I don't know. I see more there than High. I think High is much closer to his plateau than Collins. But I'm just a coach at home in front of my TV.

I think there are some things Hightower does that Collins can't do, at least not as well and/or reliably as Hightower does them. Put Collins in Hightower's place on the second to last play of SB49, and I think Marshawn is in the end zone and we lose. It's possible that he could've made the play that Hightower made, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it, and I'd rather have Hightower in that spot even playing with one arm. Being a legit 270 pounds just lets him do certain things that pretty much he alone among linebackers in the NFL can reliably do.

To Collins' credit, he's pretty effective at neutralizing blockers in his own right, although he's about using his athleticism to get around blockers than stacking and shedding them like Hightower can. I agree that Collins is the all-around better player has a higher ceiling and in all likelihood a longer NFL shelf life, and therefore I agree that he should be the #1 priority to extend. But Hightower does have his own unique talents that he brings to the table, and I remain homerishly optimistic that he may be easier to re-sign, if only because by not being as versatile and having a fairly unique skillset he has less value on the open market, with fewer teams hopefully being confident they can plug him into their schemes.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I think there are some things Hightower does that Collins can't do, at least not as well and/or reliably as Hightower does them. Put Collins in Hightower's place on the second to last play of SB49, and I think Marshawn is in the end zone and we lose. It's possible that he could've made the play that Hightower made, but I certainly wouldn't bet on it, and I'd rather have Hightower in that spot even playing with one arm. Being a legit 270 pounds just lets him do certain things that pretty much he alone among linebackers in the NFL can reliably do.

To Collins' credit, he's pretty effective at neutralizing blockers in his own right, although he's about using his athleticism to get around blockers than stacking and shedding them like Hightower can. I agree that Collins is the all-around better player has a higher ceiling and in all likelihood a longer NFL shelf life, and therefore I agree that he should be the #1 priority to extend. But Hightower does have his own unique talents that he brings to the table, and I remain homerishly optimistic that he may be easier to re-sign, if only because by not being as versatile and having a fairly unique skillset he has less value on the open market, with fewer teams hopefully being confident they can plug him into their schemes.

Agreed. Please refer to one of my earlier posts in this very thread where I pretty much say the same exact things when it comes to Hightower. There's no question what he can do. But you also echo my sentiment exactly, which is Collins is the better all around player and, in context, why I think he stays and High walks if it really does come down to a choice. All of this discussion would obviously be moot if they opt to keep both. But that's the mystery. I think it really comes down, in part, to how they view Sheard. It's hard for me to see them letting him walk if he has a Pro Bowl/All-Pro season in 2016. You simply can't afford him if you try to retain both LB's and Butler. What do you do when edge rushers are at a premium? You have no choice but to make a tough decision there. But we'll see.

Oh and for what it's worth, Collins is looking a lot beefier these days...still not quite 270 pounds but definitely more weight on him.

 

[drewskie]

I would rank the priority of the core 4 defensive players in this order based on talent/ability/replacability...

Collins
Sheard
Hightower
Butler

Defensive ends and cornerbacks typically have higher cap hits than linebackers, and realistically its hard to see all 4 getting retained, its likely only 2-3 of these get resigned (if we keep 3 based on what Ive seen the two LBs will be kept while one of Sheard or Butler get let go). Hightower's bread and butter is against the run which is partially why he complements Collins so well.

Sheard was rated the number 1 DE by PFF last season for FWIW. But he is the better all around DE than Jones without a doubt as he is able to set the edge.

Butler and Hightower have skillsets that are more easily replacable, but Sheard plays a position where NE is deep at with potential cheaper young replacements who can step up (Flowers and Grissom).

If Cyrus Jones/Darryl Roberts can establish themselves, and Sheard has a pro bowl/all-pro caliber season then Butler just might be the odd man out unless hes willing to take a slightly below market deal.

If Sheard is not aa good as hes looked so far then he might end up walking if another team offers him a big pay day. We know what we are getting with Collins and Hightower without a doubt. Butler and Sheard willbe eager to prove last year was no fluke for both.

 

[DarrylS]

It is the first time in a while that BB has molded this Defense into such a high quality, deep unit.

It must cause great consternation to decide the priorities.. as much as I like all of them Hightower seems to be the expendable one..

Butler, as an udfa, is a very rare player, CB 's like his are few and far between. Collins is a freak. Sheard might be a reasonably priced player..

 

[Big Bucks]

I think they both get contracts after preseason is over. Nothing worse signing player to longterm deal then them doing something in a meaningless game/moment. If they don't play week 4 which is possible then I'd imagine anytime after week 3 preseason is when talks heat up.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Chris Price had a juicy nugget this morning. Doesn't guarantee High stays but the team clearly thinks very highly of him.

The players who have gotten that spot are foundational elements of the franchise who end up sticking around for an extended stretch. With Hightower facing a free agent year, no one is saying he’s going to sign with the Patriots because he got a cool locker. It’s something to consider when you think about his future.

Sunday NFL Notes: What does Dont’a Hightower’s new locker location say about his status with the franchise?

 

[PP2]

McCourty didn't receive his until the end of the season. It's not necessarily the end of the world that nothing has begun.

My prediction, though, is only one gets extended. I just get that sense the more I think about it. And if I had to guess, I think High is the one allowed to walk. Call me crazy (I am). I'd like to keep both and, if I buy Madden, I'm keeping both.

EDIT: And then I read this... Sunday NFL Notes: What does Dont’a Hightower’s new locker location say about his status with the franchise?

That seat by the exit used to belong to Willie McGinest, and it was the accountability seat- the seat from which he policed the locker room and stared at guys who missed workouts or didn't show up to do video work, or use his booming voice to call you out, or take you under his wing if you were new, or a rookie. You couldn't get in or out without going by that seat. There's more about this in Blueprint by Christopher Price.

It effectively tells me that Hightower's future with the team is now secure.

 

[PP2]

I would rank the priority of the core 4 defensive players in this order based on talent/ability/replacability...

Collins
Sheard
Hightower
Butler

Defensive ends and cornerbacks typically have higher cap hits than linebackers, and realistically its hard to see all 4 getting retained, its likely only 2-3 of these get resigned (if we keep 3 based on what Ive seen the two LBs will be kept while one of Sheard or Butler get let go). Hightower's bread and butter is against the run which is partially why he complements Collins so well.

Sheard was rated the number 1 DE by PFF last season for FWIW. But he is the better all around DE than Jones without a doubt as he is able to set the edge.

Butler and Hightower have skillsets that are more easily replacable, but Sheard plays a position where NE is deep at with potential cheaper young replacements who can step up (Flowers and Grissom).

If Cyrus Jones/Darryl Roberts can establish themselves, and Sheard has a pro bowl/all-pro caliber season then Butler just might be the odd man out unless hes willing to take a slightly below market deal.

If Sheard is not aa good as hes looked so far then he might end up walking if another team offers him a big pay day. We know what we are getting with Collins and Hightower without a doubt. Butler and Sheard willbe eager to prove last year was no fluke for both.

Interior linebackers are the most difficult positions to fill, especially so with the type of defense we run, and so Hightower and Collins are far away the most important to sign, and it's not even close. DB's can be replaced, and linemen are even easier to replace. I would let both Butler and Sheard walk before losing either Hightower or Collins.

I just hope Gronk's renegotiation isn't causing too much of a snag.

 

[jah]

I'm going to go against the general consensus here and say Hightower is the most important defensive player to sign right now. If Butler has another good year, he's priority #1, but not yet.

Hightower isn't flashy like Collins, and I'm surprised that so few people here acknowledge that when they do about so many other players (Amendola is widely appreciated now, for instance). However, I never really see Hightower messing up, and every now and then I do see Collins blowing a coverage or missing a tackle. He can obviously still improve because he's so young, but if the Patriots extend a defensive player for a lot of cash right now, I want the steadiest player who has the biggest leadership role, and that's Hightower. I expect him to be named captain this year as a replacement for Mayo.

 

[PatsBoy12]

That seat by the exit used to belong to Willie McGinest, and it was the accountability seat- the seat from which he policed the locker room and stared at guys who missed workouts or didn't show up to do video work, or use his booming voice to call you out, or take you under his wing if you were new, or a rookie. You couldn't get in or out without going by that seat. There's more about this in Blueprint by Christopher Price.

It effectively tells me that Hightower's future with the team is now secure.

That could very well be.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I dont know how this is funny its very possible Butler out of the three is the one to walk

Malcolm will be a RFA. Worst case the Pats gets a pick for him. Based on his history, it is rare that BB shells out big dough to CBs and when he does they are bawlhawking, All-Pros (Ty, A$ante and Revis)

Malcolm is not at that level yet....but he is getting there.

Of Sheard, High and Collins, one of them might be franchised. Collins and High would be cheaper to franchise than Sheard.

If all 3 have All-Pro years, it is reasonable to suppose that if they hit FA, they could each see $30m+ in guarantees. No way the Pats can swing that- or will.

 

[Love The Drake]

I agree Butler is a great talent but BB has won superbowls with Elite as well as marginal talent in the secondary.
Not marginal linebacking talent.
If you look at those Superbowl winning teams all great to elite Linebacking corps.
If Hightower doesnt make that amazing stuff at the goal line Butler isnt ever a household name and is looking at a contract in the 5 plus range.
Because he made a hell of a play on the biggest stage he is now worth double that.
5ft 9 defensivebacks are out there with good to great cover skills.
6ft4 linebackers who run like clydesdales can play all over the field and can be put on a back a tight end or at times slot receiver are not in the back of the first rounds at times not even top 10.
We lucked out with Collins because he played on a losing team and our scout team saw past that.
If Collins hits free agency he will never come back.

 

[rkarp1]

seems to me all the defensive free agents have shown that they are worth while to sign. each and every one of them have proven to be very good in this defensive system. I also do believe if the players are willing, the team can afford them all
we have all seen to scenarios where Kuechly is the ceiling. If High and Collins expectations align with this, it can get done
Will the team play more and more 3-4? if so, does that include Sheard, who has really struggled in the defense with the Browns?
Is Ryan a priority with Cy Jones on the team?
With Chung closer to the end, does Harmon stay?
All interesting decisions. Imo the sooner a deal can get done, the less it will cost. waiting will cost, and the more it costs, the less likely it happens...

 

[PatsBoy12]

I'm going to go against the general consensus here and say Hightower is the most important defensive player to sign right now. If Butler has another good year, he's priority #1, but not yet.

Hightower isn't flashy like Collins, and I'm surprised that so few people here acknowledge that when they do about so many other players (Amendola is widely appreciated now, for instance). However, I never really see Hightower messing up, and every now and then I do see Collins blowing a coverage or missing a tackle. He can obviously still improve because he's so young, but if the Patriots extend a defensive player for a lot of cash right now, I want the steadiest player who has the biggest leadership role, and that's Hightower. I expect him to be named captain this year as a replacement for Mayo.

Just pointing out every player misses tackles and blows coverages, including High. But you could very well be right about High. And I don't think there's a single person in this thread who doesn't appreciate Hightower. People have wanted Amendola cut. It's not the same thing. That's all.

 

[deters]

Collins has also worn the green dot.

Yea, but Hightower is our defensive leader. He is the heart of that defense after Wilfork and Mayo left.

 

[BelichickFan]

I fully expect the following :

Hightower will be re-signed.
Collins will be Franchised.
Butler will return as a RFA.

I hope for the best with Sheard. Whether Collins is Franchised and retained or Franchised and traded I don't know but he won't "walk" as long as Highower is re-signed.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Yea, but Hightower is our defensive leader. He is the heart of that defense after Wilfork and Mayo left.

So? I was just responding directly to a specific comment. He's not the only one who has worn the green dot. Lol