PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.


Status
Not open for further replies.
The Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan in 93-94. The Bulls success was due more to the Phil Jackson system than Jordan.
I'm wondering if the Celtics fan site is talking this much about football.
 
The Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan in 93-94. The Bulls success was due more to the Phil Jackson system than Jordan.

not a good argument. it's like saying we won 11 games with cassel.

with MJ that 93-94 bulls would've easily won 65 games. maybe even more. and would've won 4th consecutive rings. MJ was in his absolute prime. well, if MJ was properly motivated and ready to go mentally.

phil jackson's system was 'MJ go score, but try to involve others bit more'.

these non sense is sickening.
 
not a good argument. it's like saying we won 11 games with cassel.

with MJ that 93-94 bulls would've easily won 65 games. maybe even more. and would've won 4th consecutive rings. MJ was in his absolute prime. well, if MJ was properly motivated and ready to go mentally.

phil jackson's system was 'MJ go score, but try to involve others bit more'.

these non sense is sickening.

It's satire. I'm using the same nonsense against Jordan that people use against Brady.

Blah, blah, blah, 11 and 5 with Matt Cassel.

Blah, blah, blah, system.
 
(consensus=patriots cheated)
Well, yeah, of course I mean among people who know nothing about football. And of course that includes scores of present and former players and coaches...Clearly, intelligence is not required to participate in the sport...
 
Right On! Except you left out NFL (OL) - John Hannah. The last person on Earth you ever want to be lined up against, and he wasn't even dirty. Pats emphasized the run and set records, mainly because of him.

How could I have forgotten John "Hog" Hannah? I should be ashamed of myself for that omission. Thanks for the correction.
 
That's a really good analysis. I'm old enough to have seen all of them in person, including Ted who was my boyhood hero. I saw him in person as a young kid 1957-60 at the end of his career. In 1957 and 1958 he won batting championships at the ages of 39 and 40. In '57 he batted an amazing .388, which was about 5 hits shy of .400. With that said, David Ortiz in my mind is the greatest clutch hitter I've ever seen.

Big Poppi isn't even in the same ballpark as Ted. Well, technically, he is in the same ballpark, but you know what I mean.
 
Let's not get carried away.

Russell (yes but Jordan better individual player)

Gretzky (better career and more titles than Orr)

Mays (better player than Ted)

Kofax (better pitcher than Pedro)

Brady but could argue Rice easily.

I'm not getting carried away at all. I think you may be.

Jordan was not a better individual player than Russell. I doubt that Jordan could get any shot off near the basket against Russell. Few player did. (better career and more titles than Jordan)

Orr was more dominant in his era than Gretsky was in his. If not for his knee injury Orr would have had the longevity, so if that's the criteria then so be it. All I know is when I watched the games Orr stood out much more than Gretsky.

Nobody was a better hitter than Ted Williams. Not. Even. Close. Sure, Willie was a damn good player but he couldn't hit nearly as well as Ted.

When you look at all of the stats that determine a pitcher's value, none of them rank as high in as many of those stats as Pedro. Koufax may be close, but he isn't ahead. He also suffers from the same criticism that you gave to Orr vs Gretsky. Koufax didn't play long enough.

People can argue for Rice. Wait, did you mean Montana? No way that Rice was as good a QB as Tommy LomBrady.
 
I love this debate because there is no right answer.

I put Russell ahead of MJ because he was A) the MJ of defense, an excellent passer and the GoAT rebounder in history and B) To win 11 championships in 13 years is incomprehensible. You can't quantify it statistically. You just have to believe that the man figured out how to win games and championships at a level that 99.9999% of the players in NBA never could. Jordan got close. Then Magic/Larry and Jabbar.

In the case of Bill Russell there is a very right answer. Jordan didn't get close to Russells accomplishments at the college or pro level.
 
celtics were superior teams with better players and coaching.

MJ was better scorer, better FT shooter, better all around player, better passer, better everything except rebounding which honestly is the most overrated stat especially in today's nba. just look at rebounding leaders we have today. they are not as impactful as scorers.

russell is top 5 all time because of his accomplishments. but honestly was he even better than hakeem? kareem? shaq? i often wonder what kind of stats young shaq would put up in 60s. hakeem was every bit quick and agile as russell ever was, but hakeem was far better offensive player than russell ever was. wouldn't hakeem avg 35/25reb in 60's?

Obviously you know nothing about Bill Russell's career. Check this out and get back to me...

Bill Russell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Speaking of ARod.

There was nothing that turned me off more than tuning in to sports talk radio back in 2003-2004, during the height of the Pats greatest run of winning in NFL history, and hearing nothing but ARod is coming to Boston talk. That pretty much ended my sports talk radio days. The only way I listen now is by going through the archives and finding a Brady or Belichick interview.
 
I grew up with my "Channel Master" transistor radio on real low listening to Curt Gowdy sing the praises of Ted Williams under the covers, so my mother would not yell at me..

Watched Bill Russell in person play against the Lakers in an exhibition game in Newport in the early 60's... there was minimal NBA TV coverage.

Saw Lew Alcindor play in the ESCIT(eastern states catholic invitational tournament) at Rogers High School..

I used to have to go to a bar to watch a black and white very grainy Bobby Orr et al and trie not to drink to much.. Channel 38 had limited range, but did get to see the 1970 Stanley Cup..

Watched Pedro with great reception..

Brady is larger than life, with his being continual in the limelight.. but he may have been as great in the 60's as he is today..

Point is that with the current media availability and internet access, many of these current players are larger than life and perhaps in the rear view mirror the accomplishments of Russell, Williams and Orr are somewhat diminished.. it is difficult to compare what Williams did to what a contemporary does, it is difficult to compare Russell to Jordan, it is difficult to compare Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky. Different games, different times and different coverage every thing is skewed for a variety of reasons..

My vote is (f) all of the above... all were great, but to compare who was better or who is goat is extremely difficult. I am a lucky fan to have witnessed all of them..
 
i would say it would be more like 14/16.5/3.5-4 block a game kinda guy. that's a great friggin number. russell can be better ben wallace with little bit of dwight howard in his prime with today's training. russell was offensively challenged then, he will be offensively challenged now.

scoring is a natural ability. when wilt was putting up 50 russell was scoring 18-19pts a game. how in the world he would score more in today's league when he couldn't even avg 20pts a game in an era where many dudes had a 2nd job? also big men's role has diminished, so the offense doesn't go inside then out.
and averaging 20+reb a game is pretty much impossible in today's nba. today's nba lack's possession, and big men simply doesn't play 40+ mins. no teams would allow that.

Keep in mind Russ was 6-10 and 220 so he wasn't big per se. I figure he'd play close to 40 min

Russ being a Ben Wallace type is a great comparison. Hes more gifted offensively than him which is why I think in his prime Russ would average 20ppg. Overall he's probably a 15-17ppg guy this era.

I think Chamberlain scores 30 in his prime now. Same with Jabbar.
 
I'm not getting carried away at all. I think you may be.

Jordan was not a better individual player than Russell. I doubt that Jordan could get any shot off near the basket against Russell. Few player did. (better career and more titles than Jordan)

Orr was more dominant in his era than Gretsky was in his. If not for his knee injury Orr would have had the longevity, so if that's the criteria then so be it. All I know is when I watched the games Orr stood out much more than Gretsky.

Nobody was a better hitter than Ted Williams. Not. Even. Close. Sure, Willie was a damn good player but he couldn't hit nearly as well as Ted.

When you look at all of the stats that determine a pitcher's value, none of them rank as high in as many of those stats as Pedro. Koufax may be close, but he isn't ahead. He also suffers from the same criticism that you gave to Orr vs Gretsky. Koufax didn't play long enough.

People can argue for Rice. Wait, did you mean Montana? No way that Rice was as good a QB as Tommy LomBrady.

I think we are both couching our arguments.

To say Jordan would not score when Russ was on the floor is not accurate. West and Elgin Baylor did and Jordan is a superior player to those two.

Kofax did better in postseason and pitched more innings.

For Orr it's the same argument. He was dominant for a handful of years (top 5 all-time) #99 was just a dominant but did it longer.

Of course Ted was a better hitter. He was the GoAT but I'd rather have a guy that did everything.
 
In the case of Bill Russell there is a very right answer. Jordan didn't get close to Russells accomplishments at the college or pro level.

We are counting college now?
 
As long as you don't produce a GoAT soccer player, I'll be fine
 
From my lofty perch:

Call Russell the greatest defender of all time. The greatest "winner" in NBA history. The Greatest rebounder? But there is no way in hell a 15 pt/game , 56% free throw shooter should be labeled greatest player in the sport's history. Russell thrived in an era where bad shooting was status quo and rebounding was inflated….see Wilt for examples of inflation. My love for Bird prevents me from admitting Jordan is likely the greatest….but I will say this……the 60's Celtics were stacked, the 80's Lakers and Celtics were stacked….but Jordan's Bulls weren't….yet they still they dominated. That tells me everything.

I grew up worshipping Bobby Orr, worshipping the B's….and that era of hockey was the sport's hey day IMO. Great rivalries that broke out into wars and the B's represented Boston with guts and glory…And Orr was spectacular….a performer like no other in that era and I've never seen a defenseman take over games like #4. Standing behind the net with the puck, knowing his team needed him to take over the game…..Jordanesque. His rushes up the ice were epic…everyone of them. And unfortunately, gimpy knees shortened his era of dominance.
That being said…..Gretzky was the greatest. Very simply put, Gretzky was a machine. He didn't need to dig deep to achieve his moments of greatness….it was constant, efficient, lethal, and there was longevity. Nine MVPs, Five cups, endless scoring titles. Like Orr, the NHL had no answer to slow this guy down……and Gretzky delivered. Every night, the opposition's game plan was to slow Gretzky down and Gretzky countered with a decade of statistical and team domination that will likely never be matched. Gretzky by a landslide.

The Say Hey Kid verses Teddy Ballgame…….never saw them play live, met Ted a few years before his son froze his head. Can't say I've seen many of Williams highlights either but for some reason Mays has more public footage. I get why people labeled Mays as the greatest all around ball player back during his era……a public not used to witnessing the stunning athleticism of black ballplayers in the newly integrated MLB now sees a young man flying around the outfield and the base paths with power to boot. And I get the fascination and recognition of defensive artists because in that era, gloves and arms won games. My favorite Saux player of all time was Dewey Evans because his arm was a thunderbolt and his ability to gun runners at the plate was must see TV. Forget Rice's moon shots, Evans sniping foolish base runners were my greatest memories of baseball as a kid (and Johnny Bench).
And Mays with a .950 OPS (yes…I'm going there) is dam impressive along with his defensive aptitude.
So is "impressive" enough to be labeled the "greatest"?
At the plate, Williams would be categorized as more than impressive….more than great……Out of this World is most appropriate. 1.150 OPS (there I go again)…for his career. "Best hitter" in baseball history? It can be argued yes…of course the taint of the accessibility of the Green Monster always gets injected into any Teddy Ballgame conversation.
A better debate than who was better, Mays vs. Williams, might be….You are a GM back in their generation and a GM today, who would you choose to build a team around if you could only have one or the other. I know I'm taking the bigger bat despite my appreciation for superior defenders. "Strong up the middle" always sounds logical but it was the Yankee bats that earned them dozens of rings and the Ken Griffey Jr all-a-rounders won the purists' heart…but not much else. But of course, Williams earned no rings…so who the eff knows. The more players on the field, the more foolish any argument becomes…Who's the "greatest"…..???

Which gets us to football…..45 players for each team…..22 different positions…..and we can somehow determine who's the greatest? Silly!
So lets be silly….at QB. I will keep this brief. I take Montana (sorry Tom). My logic is sound (to me). Perfection (SB record) during an era of superior competition. The NFC in the Montana era was stacked with some of the NFL 's strongest teams and defenses ever (Giants, Dallas) and earning a trip to the SB having to run the gauntlet of the NFC playoffs………impressive. Those NFC playoffs were wars, year in year out and those teams were stacked….and Montana delivered. Sucks for Brady because perfection can never be regained and Montana owns that particular label….but as I said….silly.

It's unfortunate that any of these greats …Orr, Gretzky, Mays, Montana …even Jordan played well past their prime allowing some doubt into our minds regarding their dominance and greatness. Final memories of these guys are too often sad memories. Russell was different …he exited a champion and his legacy is the most intact …..maybe in the history of sports. Perpetual champion….NCAA, Olympics, and the NBA. I don't have him as the greatest basketball player….but he may be the greatest winner ever. Why the city of Boston hasn't elevated Russell to a similar Pantheon that only Ted Williams resides in is beyond comprehension. If Williams is worthy of a tunnel name, Russell deserves ???? The bridge next to the Garden seems appropriate…don't you think. Ortiz and Brady are in line as well….but this is Boston and certain criteria too often limits change….right Mr. Russell ( I digress)…it only took a half century to get him a statue. Williams got a tunnel after a half century :)….so be patient Bill.

PS…I am curious how the city of Boston honors Brady and/or Belichick in years to come, if at all. A team that doesn't play in the city……a city that honored Avalanche defenseman Ray Bourque……very curious
 
Last edited:
Do or don't, but it doesn't matter. Jordan's accomplishments pale in comparison at any level.
I don't think I argued otherwise?

My position is that he is not a better individual player. Not sure why you disagree with that?
 
Big Poppi isn't even in the same ballpark as Ted. Well, technically, he is in the same ballpark, but you know what I mean.

I don't want to stir this up any further, but I think when all is said and done, Ortiz is the most valuable player in Sox history up to now. Ortiz is the one constant in the three championships that the Sox have now.

Stats-wise, Ted is unquestionably the best hitter the Sox ever had, except in the playoffs. In the one time he was in the playoffs, in '46, he batted .200 I believe. This is by no means an attempt to take away from his other accomplishments, though.

I think it all comes down to the question, which one do you want more, stats or championships?
 
I'm just popping in to say that the only thing more insane than saying that anyone other than Gretzky is the hockey GOAT is saying that MJ isn't NBA top 20.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


Wednesday Patriots Notebook 5/1: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Jerod Mayo’s Appearance on WEEI On Monday
Tuesday Patriots Notebook 4/30: News and Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Drake Maye’s Interview on WEEI on Jones & Mego with Arcand
MORSE: Rookie Camp Invitees and Draft Notes
Patriots Get Extension Done with Barmore
Monday Patriots Notebook 4/29: News and Notes
Patriots News 4-28, Draft Notes On Every Draft Pick
MORSE: A Closer Look at the Patriots Undrafted Free Agents
Five Thoughts on the Patriots Draft Picks: Overall, Wolf Played it Safe
Back
Top