OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.

[Actual Pats Fan]

As long as you don't produce a GoAT soccer player, I'll be fine

Garrincha. Undebatable.

 

[RobertWeathers]

College is extremely important, in terms of the first 3/4 of the 20th century.

Sure but comparing professional accomplishments not so much.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Comparing players from different eras is difficult. Jordan and Russell both had that indomitable competitiveness - just like Tom Brady. All three played for brilliant coaches who understood how to manage men and how to motivate superstars to reach higher.

But it's questionable whether Bill Russell would dominate in the 2015-2016 NBA at his prime. There are so many athletic, talented big men on every team now. When Bill Russell retired they were 14 NBA teams.

There were 26 in 1994 when Isiah Thomas retired. Today there are 30 teams. The NBA is a completely different league, the NCAA is turning out more gifted players, and the biggest change is the emergence of outstanding international players from all over the world.

Players that dominate in the 30-team international NBA are extraordinary players. I think certain guys from the pre- 1970 expansion that added the Buffalo Braves, the Trailblazers, and the Cavaliers would be factors in today's game or in the Jabbar-Bird-Magic-Erving-Jordan-Olajuwon-D. Wilkins, Malone era.

Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Lenny Wilkens, Baylor, Maravich, and a few others might be competitive. But looking back at some of the 1950s-1960s all-star line-ups has lots of guys who would be journeymen at best in the modern NBA.

Guys like Gale Goodrich, Lou Hudson, Wayne Embry, Walt Bellamy, Sam Jones, Chet Walker, Bailey Howell, Len Chappell, etc. don't have the tools to play in the 2015 NBA. Russell was competing with a whole different caliber of player.

Why doesn't Sam Jones. 6-4 guard who could penetrate, move without the ball, shoot outside, pass very well and play great D?

 

[wolverinejoe80]

Dumbest post of the year grats.

Russell won NCAA both years he played, won 11 championships in 13 years, greatest winner ever any professional sport.

i don't care about college.

bird in 60s would've won mvp every year and drop triple double every night. probably would avg near 40pts every season too.

whenver i see russell's old footage, i often wonder if he is any better than anthony davis. hell anthony davis can actually SCORE. bird on the other hand gave me goosebumps. dude was a genius.

let's all be honest here. russell is the most accomplished player ever, but he played in 60's. baby era. nba has evolved so much after mid 70's.

 

[patsfan13]

i don't care about college.

bird in 60s would've won mvp every year and drop triple double every night. probably would avg near 40pts every season too.

whenver i see russell's old footage, i often wonder if he is any better than anthony davis. hell anthony davis can actually SCORE. bird on the other hand gave me goosebumps. dude was a genius.

let's all be honest here. russell is the most accomplished player ever, but he played in 60's. baby era. nba has evolved so much after mid 70's.

Great Athletes thrive in any era.

He dominated his competition, he didn't have the diet training, or example of previous generations to emulate. If he were born 20 years he would be a different person in a different but he would still be a winner. HE would still make those around him better. That is what the truly great do.

Your seeming blindness to that identifies you as.....

Bi need to go negative.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

i wonder how many nba players go through diet training. russell was fit as hell. would he be better if he packed more muscle? not sure. reality is that he would be vastly undersized center in any era. hakeem was undersized too, but at least he could score at will around the post with his quickness and insane skills. watching russell's old footage, he just had bad hands. you can't teach good hands. you can't just will yourself to become next hakeem. some dudes just don't have it. dwight howard for example. dwight went through all kinds of training every damn year. paid hakeem 100k for training. but he just doesn't have it. he is not a natural scorer around the post. so damn inconsistent. could russell with today's game tape become a great post player? i doubt it. wilt was a great post player. russell should've watched wilt's tape then.

IMO russell would be the same in any era - offensively challenged defensive center who is quick but undersized. dude shot .44% fg in 60's as a center. how's that even possible?

 

[JayNM]

Garrincha. Undebatable.

I wouldn't go as far as undebatable, Pele has to be in the discussion.

Some say Maradona, but he is argentinean, so they are wrong

 

[goheels22002]

Why doesn't Sam Jones. 6-4 guard who could penetrate, move without the ball, shoot outside, pass very well and play great D?

Sam Jones was a very good shooting guard, maybe the best the NBA had seen in his prime in the mid-1960s except for Jerry West. But, he never shot 50% from the field for a season, averaged 20+ only four times and wound up with a 17.7 ppg scoring average. I'm not sure he's the best shooting guard in Celtics history. I'd take Ray Allen ahead of Sam Jones, Danny Ainge and Bill Sharman. Sharman's numbers and Sam Jone's numbers are comparable. And the other question is what was Bill Havlicek? Hondo is 6'5" and a tweener. If he's a shooting guard, I'd put him #1 because of his defense and rebounding, Ray Allen #2 and Sam Jones #3.

Sam Jones

Since this is a GOAT thread, where would Sam Jones rank among all-time shooting guards with guys like MJ, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Dwyane Wade, Pete Maravich, Stephen Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, George Gervin, Clyde Drexler, Manu Ginobli, Vince Carter, and maybe Iverson who just went into the HOF. The other question here is what was Oscar Robertson? He was 6'5" and handled the ball, so he was probably a point guard, but O averaged over 28 ppg for 8 straight seasons finishing with a 25.7 ppg average.

In the list above, I'd have Sam Jones in the 10 - 12 range, probably.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sam Jones was a very good shooting guard, maybe the best the NBA had seen in his prime in the mid-1960s except for Jerry West. But, he never shot 50% from the field for a season, averaged 20+ only four times and wound up with a 17.7 ppg scoring average. I'm not sure he's the best shooting guard in Celtics history. I'd take Ray Allen ahead of Sam Jones, Danny Ainge and Bill Sharman. Sharman's numbers and Sam Jone's numbers are comparable. And the other question is what was Bill Havlicek? Hondo is 6'5" and a tweener. If he's a shooting guard, I'd put him #1 because of his defense and rebounding, Ray Allen #2 and Sam Jones #3.

Sam Jones

Since this is a GOAT thread, where would Sam Jones rank among all-time shooting guards with guys like MJ, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Dwyane Wade, Pete Maravich, Stephen Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, George Gervin, Clyde Drexler, Manu Ginobli, Vince Carter, and maybe Iverson who just went into the HOF. The other question here is what was Oscar Robertson? He was 6'5" and handled the ball, so he was probably a point guard, but O averaged over 28 ppg for 8 straight seasons finishing with a 25.7 ppg average.

In the list above, I'd have Sam Jones in the 10 - 12 range, probably.

My dad would say Sharman was the best shooter in Celts history but he hims and haws when compared to Jones. I put Jones behind Ray Ray no question. I'd have to think about all-time ranking but 10-12 sounds reasonable. Id put him ahead of Ginolbi and Gervin b/c of D and behind the others you mention.

Hondo was G/F. Same with Clyde the Glide.

Big-O was transcendent. The old timers will say hes a point guard.

 

[condon84]

Your argument for Ted Williams having to go against a stacked Yankees squad thus the reason why he didn't win as much could be used for Wilt and how he had to play against a stacked Celtics squad.

MJ is the unquestioned GOAT in basketball and Gretzky for hockey.

 

[Triumph]

Thank you for your input...but, guessing you never saw Orr play.!

Orr was the best ever hands down.

He would kill penalties by himself.

 

[Triumph]

Let's not get carried away.

Russell (yes but Jordan better individual player)

Gretzky (better career and more titles than Orr)

Mays (better player than Ted)

Kofax (better pitcher than Pedro)

Brady but could argue Rice easily.

The thread title says BOSTON GOAT.

 

[Triumph]

Gretsky was a greater scorer but the game changed so much in the time between the two. You were not allowed to hit Gretsky by either the refs or the bigs on Edmonton. When Orr Played you could hit the stars.

Orr was targeted by the other teams goons because he was so good.

Kieth Magnuson ruined Orrs career.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The thread title says BOSTON GOAT.

Also said could be considered GoAT of their sport thus the reason for 5 pages

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Also said could be considered GoAT of their sport thus the reason for 5 pages

Boston has been incomparably fortunate to have so many GOAT's play here. It must have the richest pro sports history in the nation, if not the planet.

 

[fightingirish595]

I think in the nhl and nba, Gretzky and Jordan are the unquestioned GOATS. As for Ted Williams, I think there is only one hitter better than him, and that's babe Ruth. But DiMaggio and mays were better all around players. As for the best pitcher, I'm gonna say randy Johnson. 5 cy youngs. Look at some of his seasons. He was dominant. I can't say Koufax because his career ended way too soon, but he's one of my favorites. As for the NFL, I think when it's all said and done and he's retired, Brady will be the undisputed GOAT

EDIT: I'm actually not so sure I really believe Johnson is the best pitcher ever

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think in the nhl and nba, Gretzky and Jordan are the unquestioned GOATS. As for Ted Williams, I think there is only one hitter better than him, and that's babe Ruth. But DiMaggio and mays were better all around players. As for the best pitcher, I'm gonna say randy Johnson. 5 cy youngs. Look at some of his seasons. He was dominant. I can't say Koufax because his career ended way too soon, but he's one of my favorites. As for the NFL, I think when it's all said and done and he's retired, Brady will be the undisputed GOAT

EDIT: I'm actually not so sure I really believe Johnson is the best pitcher ever

Johnson is in my top 5 of the modern era.

Kofax
Pedro
Johnson
Maddox
Gibson

Carlton and Rocket just miss....

 

[captain insano]

bird Orr Williams Brady

 

[RobertWeathers]

I wouldn't go as far as undebatable, Pele has to be in the discussion.

Some say Maradona, but he is argentinean, so they are wrong

Maradonna would have made a great 3rd down RB. Moves on moves on moves.

 

[goheels22002]

Johnson is in my top 5 of the modern era.

Kofax
Pedro
Johnson
Maddox
Gibson

Carlton and Rocket just miss....

Carlton makes my top five. I lived in Philadelphia in 1972 when the Philadelphia Phillies went 59-97. Steve Carlton won 27 games that season with a 1.97 ERA.

Think about that. That was a terrible baseball team playing on a circular concrete pool table.

Carlton went 27-10, 1.97 ERA, 310 strikeouts in 346 innings. I think we went to 15 of those games.

No pitcher in the 20th or 21st Centuries won as a high a percentage of his team's games at 45.8%.

Steve Carlton was a quirky introvert which hurt his historical significance, but he had the best slider in the history of the game.