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Pedro was the greatest pitcher I've ever seen.




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Sounds like you're what the kids today would call a "hater."

I don't know what he did or didn't take, and don't much care. But if you want to be self-righteous about PEDs, know that you're indicting a whole bunch of Patriots players, past and present.

Kids today can call me whatever they want. And if you don't care that he used a banned substance, and probably still does, you have the right to your opinion.

The people who are being self-righteous about PED use are Big Poppi when he stated that the PED users who tested positive should be banned from the game and his fans that call out other players.

I haven't heard a Pats player asking for another player to be banned for using a substance that he used himself. Have you?
 
Pedro was the greatest pitcher I've ever seen.




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I couldn't agree more, and I go back as far as Sandy Koufax and Bob Gibson.

When you look at all of the stats that help determine a pitcher's greatness, none of them are rated as high in as many of those stats as Pedro. If he had hung them up after 10 years like Koufax did he would have been even better in those rankings.

Edit: No pitcher had as many variations of pitches that looked the same coming out of his hand.
 
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Kids today can call me whatever they want. And if you don't care that he used a banned substance, and probably still does, you have the right to your opinion.

The people who are being self-righteous about PED use are Big Poppi when he stated that the PED users who tested positive should be banned from the game and his fans that call out other players.

I haven't heard a Pats player asking for another player to be banned for using a substance that he used himself. Have you?
Anyway, my original point is that it's Papi, not Poppi.
 
Agreed. Wilt's best season was 1966-67 when the 76ers won the NBA title, beat the Celtics in five games and overpowered the SF Warriors with Nate Thurmond, Rick Barry and Pork Chop Mullins.

Wilt's impressive stat that year was his 630 assists. That team had Billy Cunningham as the 6th man (a la John Havlicek) who was the primary difference from previous Sixers teams that depended on Wilt to put up 35+ per night. Wilt finished 3rd in the NBA in points that year but still led the league in rebounds (24.2/game) and field goal percentage. I was at game 5 of the Warriors-Sixers finals at Covention Hall where the upper deck hung out almost to the sideline.

Just to pick up on some grumbling from a previous post, the NBA in the 1960s consisted of a total of ten teams. Ten. Most colleges didn't have any black players of which the vaunted Kentucky Wildcats are most notable. Dean Smith is hailed as a major civil rights coach for recruiting and admitting Charlie Scott as the 1st black scholarship athlete in 1966.

The NBA didn't have anywhere near the talent in those years as we saw in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and now. Not even close.

Starting centers in the NBA in 1966-1967 (Wilt and Russell's prime) included Nate Thurmond, Connie Dierking, Zelmo Beatty, Darrall Imhoff, Erwin Mueller, and Joe Strawder. Those centers are listed because they led their teams in minutes played at center. I would say that none of those guys after Wilt and Russell would start on a 2016 NBA team.

Wilt and Russell were great in a 10-team mostly white NBA. They'd have their hands full every night of the week in the 2016 NBA and could not possibly dominate the way they did today. And this is not even a decent era for big men. Everybody's got two or three 7-footers. International big men come more fully developed as players (Kristaps Porzingis 7'3" and is a shooter!).

When I mentioned guys like Maravich, West, Baylor, Lenny Wilkens, "O" as being competitive in this era, I meant it. I could do a comparison across the board to players in this era and line up 8 to 10 guys who could handle them physically on offense or defense.

Look at the guards - Oscar Robinson (who some consider the best PG of all time) at 6'5" was Bernie Sanders huge for his era. That's average to small now. The current Celtics have defenders who could handle him physically. Jerry West was a great NBA scorer from 1960-1974 at 6'4", 185. But does anyone seriously think he could create his own shot against today's guards? Maravich didn't play defense at all. Lenny Wilkens was Isaish Thomas (either one) at 6'1". Elgin Baylor was a great small forward at 6'5" 225. Now, that's a tweener when small forwards are 6'9" 230 (Durant, LeBron, Paul George, Kawai Leonard, Carmelo Anthony).

Larry Bird's accomplishments in the 1980s NBA are more impressive to me than Russell's in the 1960s. Bird won the MVP and NBA title in a 23-team NBA in 1985-86. The small forwards in his division alone were Albert King, Julius Erving, Ernie Grunfeld and Cliff Robinson. That's not to mention James Worthy, Orlando Woolridge, Dominque Wilkins, Alex English and other small forwards. The NBA had evolved so much by then, and continues to evolve.

In the NBA, the only position that holds up from the 1960s to now is power forward. Luke Jackson, John Block, Don Nelson, Bob Love, Willis Reed, Tommy Heinsohn, etc were big mean rebounders who defended and could hold their own on the blocks. How good would the Celtic be with Don Nelson at his prime on this year's team?

The link below offers a decent analysis of 60's stats vs the "modern" game. The "shots per game" stat tells you everything about the transformation of the game. My foggy memory of 60's hoop was ….run n' gun/no defense…poor shooting/lots of rebounding.

About Those Numbers From the 1960s… | Statitudes

Then there's the Black/White makeup of the NBA……a sport dominated by African Americans today but certainly not in the late 50's/early 60's

""In 1949 there were no black NBA players.
In 1950 Chuck Cooper was the first black signed by an NBA team.
In 1958 the proportion of blacks in the general population approximated the percentage of blacks playing professional basketball…..12%. (In other words, teams had one or two black players)
In 1998, 77% of all professional basketball players were black.""

Race and Sport

Again , my foggy memory of 60's hoop includes the images of NBA legend Bob Cousey dribbling the basketball out away from his body and I can't believe this style would translate in today's game with superior athletes that actually challenge the point guard.
I use too play hoop against the little kids in my neighborhood and I would crush the 4 footers….and I imagine the Chamberlains and the Russells of the 60's NBA felt equally invincible against the inferior athletes of that generation
 
any version of 60's celtics just don't do anything for me. watching the old footage makes me wonder if they can beat today's top college teams. they just look so uncoordinated.



yes, they won 11 rings in 13 years. that's ridiculous. but these player's skillset look so elementary to me. imagine them playing today's nba teams. i'm not even sure if they can get a shot off. all the shots will be contested.

Human beings physically evolve and develop over generations and centuries, no more so than over the last hundred years...an accurate analysis can only be done with all things being equal.
 
The link below offers a decent analysis of 60's stats vs the "modern" game. The "shots per game" stat tells you everything about the transformation of the game. My foggy memory of 60's hoop was ….run n' gun/no defense…poor shooting/lots of rebounding.

About Those Numbers From the 1960s… | Statitudes

Then there's the Black/White makeup of the NBA……a sport dominated by African Americans today but certainly not in the late 50's/early 60's

""In 1949 there were no black NBA players.
In 1950 Chuck Cooper was the first black signed by an NBA team.
In 1958 the proportion of blacks in the general population approximated the percentage of blacks playing professional basketball…..12%. (In other words, teams had one or two black players)
In 1998, 77% of all professional basketball players were black.""

Race and Sport

Again , my foggy memory of 60's hoop includes the images of NBA legend Bob Cousey dribbling the basketball out away from his body and I can't believe this style would translate in today's game with superior athletes that actually challenge the point guard.
I use too play hoop against the little kids in my neighborhood and I would crush the 4 footers….and I imagine the Chamberlains and the Russells of the 60's NBA felt equally invincible against the inferior athletes of that generation
Russ and Wilt played against Thurmond, Reed, Unseld, Baylor, Robertson...and each other. You simply need to hypothetically insert an old guy into a contemporary environment...just envision an even playing field. Cousy was amazing, the original Magic. The highlight you're seeing was at the end of Game 7. How'd the Cavs & GSW look like at the end two weeks ago?
 
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