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What kind of cut-off do you have in mind for "significant"?

I don't know.

There are players who won't play for a scrub team and only consider playoff teams. Welker could probably have gotten more from someone other than Den or NE. Others will reject specific teams.

My position is that I don't recall player who chose to give NE a discount instead of making significantly more money on other playoff team. Perhaps there were a couple. I don't remember any.

My main point was to caution folks against thinking that NE operated with a an advantage of being able to pay less because players give us discounts.

Some free agents MIGHT be more likely to play for NE on a 1-year show-me deal, as Revis did.
 
I don't know.

There are players who won't play for a scrub team and only consider playoff teams. Welker could probably have gotten more from someone other than Den or NE. Others will reject specific teams.

My position is that I don't recall player who chose to give NE a discount instead of making significantly more money on other playoff team. Perhaps there were a couple. I don't remember any.


Bruschi. He could easily have gotten more elsewhere but didn't even try. He lowballed himself.
 
For some,of these guys HOF should be coming into play. Wilfork and Revis,in particular. People can think what they want but rings are a big factor in HOF voting And if Wilfork gets a 3rd his likelihood of making the Hall goes up exponentially Imo. Being the centerpiece of two separate defense's to win 3 rings would certainly qualify him as Hall candidate. And while Revis certainly has the inside track on the Hall right now he could see that deteriorate the way Seymour's did when he went to the a Raiders and finished his career out of sight and mind. Another ring and Revis will be a lock imo. Hopefully both take it into account while making their decisions.
 
Bruschi. He could easily have gotten more elsewhere but didn't even try. He lowballed himself.
I mentioned Bruschi and Brady in previous posts. Both took serious hometown discounts.
 
Siliga has played more snaps than anyone except Wilfork whenever he has been healthy. That would make him a "starter" not an "depth option".
He had beaten out players such as tommy Kelly, branch and Chris jones.

Okay, fair enough. He's more of a starter than a role player.
 
Siliga has played more snaps than anyone except Wilfork whenever he has been healthy. That would make him a "starter" not an "depth option".
He had beaten out players such as tommy Kelly, branch and Chris jones.

Okay, fair enough that Siligia is more of a "starter," than a "role player," but I don't see how pointing out the fact that he's beaten out some JAGS necessarily proves anything opposite of what I said.

He's shown flashes and hopefully will continue to progress.
 
Didn't mean to double post. The site will not allow me to delete or edit at the moment.
 
Okay, fair enough that Siligia is more of a "starter," than a "role player," but I don't see how pointing out the fact that he's beaten out some JAGS necessarily proves anything opposite of what I said.

He's shown flashes and hopefully will continue to progress.
Those "JAGS" are guys who were starting NFL DTs for years (Branch and Kelley) and the guy who started for us in 2013.

You said he is a cheap big body for depth, and has 'shown flashes'. The truth is he has earned playing time over some pretty good football players.
You categorize him as a slug who got on the field, I as a guy who earned a starting role.
 
Hopefully Wilfork will redo his...again.
Sign Revis
Franchise Mccourty
Keep Ayers+Butler
So far Wilfork hasn't given us any cap savings, I see no reason for why he would agree to do that this year after playing a full year healthy, when he wouldn't even do it after missing most of a year.
 
Those "JAGS" are guys who were starting NFL DTs for years (Branch and Kelley) and the guy who started for us in 2013.

You said he is a cheap big body for depth, and has 'shown flashes'. The truth is he has earned playing time over some pretty good football players.
You categorize him as a slug who got on the field, I as a guy who earned a starting role.

Well, I didn't mean to categorize him as "any kind of slug who got on the field"--by any stretch. I'll certainly agree with you that he's earned a starting role. Then again, one could say the same thing for any number of JAGs lately like Joe Vellano, Brandon Deaderick, etc. The competition on the DL hasn't exactly been top notch lately, but that's something that we've gone back and forth on several times., and I don't expect it to change in this post.

Bringing up a guy who wasn't even playing football (Branch) doesn't help your cause in my opinion, and I'm not sure where the Tommy Kelly situation comes in to play, considering that he asked for his release in the meaningless games of the preseason? Siliga was injured through the majority of the preseason with a left hand injury, so I'm not sure how could he have taken Tommy Kelly's spot?

I think what it comes down to is that for me the jury is still out on Siligia, at least being anything other than rotational depth. In other words, I'm not as sure as you are that he's going to be here for awhile in the future as a starter on our DL every game. You seem to feel differently, so we'll hope for the best. Where we can agree is that at the moment, he seems like a nice piece of the rotational depth of the DL moving forward. At least right now.
 
Well, I didn't mean to categorize him as "any kind of slug who got on the field"--by any stretch. I'll certainly agree with you that he's earned a starting role. Then again, one could say the same thing for any number of JAGs lately like Joe Vellano, Brandon Deaderick, etc. The competition on the DL hasn't exactly been top notch lately, but that's something that we've gone back and forth on several times., and I don't expect it to change in this post.
Joe Vellano is a great example because he played when we had no one else. Compared to this years competition, where he was on the practice squad.
Deaderick never played as a big a role as Siliga..

Bringing up a guy who wasn't even playing football (Branch) doesn't help your cause in my opinion, and I'm not sure where the Tommy Kelly situation comes in to play, considering that he asked for his release in the meaningless games of the preseason? Siliga was injured through the majority of the preseason with a left hand injury, so I'm not sure how could he have taken Tommy Kelly's spot?
Branch is a good football player. He wasn't not playing because of ability.

Kelley would not have been cut if he was going to play. The fact that Siliga was injured during camp doesn't mean the forget he exists. If he were not on the team, Kelley would have been kept.

I think what it comes down to is that for me the jury is still out on Siligia, at least being anything other than rotational depth. In other words, I'm not as sure as you are that he's going to be here for awhile in the future as a starter on our DL every game. You seem to feel differently, so we'll hope for the best. Where we can agree is that at the moment, he seems like a nice piece of the rotational depth of the DL moving forward. At least right now.
He has proven it on the field.
You want to relegate him to a lesser role than he has already proven he can fill, and that BB appears to be very happy with. He is not depth, the starting job is his, as it has been whenever he has been healthy.

My issue with your comments is that 'depth' means a guy who sits on the bench and gets a few snaps, and plays if there are injuries. That is totally inconsistent with Siligas Pats career to date.
 
My issue with your comments is that 'depth' means a guy who sits on the bench and gets a few snaps, and plays if there are injuries. That is totally inconsistent with Siligas Pats career to date.

It may be inconsistent with Siliga's 2014 season where he started in 5/7 games, but I don't know that I'd agree that he's been that way for his "Pats career." As we've seen in the past, there have been many "starters" or full-time players who log a lot of reps on the DL who either don't stay or simply fit the role due to a lack of adequate talent level there in the first place. It's a position that changes fairly often on this team.

It is my opinion that a guy like Siliga in 2015 is currently rotational depth (albeit important rotational depth at the current moment), rather than a bona fide starter. I come to this conclusion due to the following:

--Wilfork will be staying, as we've discussed and are in agreement with

--Easley will obviously see a much bigger role in 2015. Long gone are the days where he's logging 12/71 snaps

--The possibility exists that we'll be drafting another DT in the top few rounds and/or bringing in a cost effective free agent
 
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So far Wilfork hasn't given us any cap savings, I see no reason for why he would agree to do that this year after playing a full year healthy, when he wouldn't even do it after missing most of a year.

I don't see a scenario where Wilfork is going to re-do his contract again either.

I think 2015 could be his last year here, but he earned the right to stay with the way that he battled back from a major injury and showed up last year. It wasn't very long ago where people were predicting that "there was no way he'd be able to come back from that kind of an injury."
 
I don't see a scenario where Wilfork is going to re-do his contract again either.

I think 2015 could be his last year here, but he earned the right to stay with the way that he battled back from a major injury and showed up last year. It wasn't very long ago where people were predicting that "there was no way he'd be able to come back from that kind of an injury."

So, your opinion is that Wilfork should be compensated twice for his 2014 performance? Do you think that Wilfork wasn't paid enough for his 2014 performance in 2014. I was under the impression that he didn't lose any money once he collected on all the incentives.

There are only 3 situations under which Wilfork might be paid $8.5M for his services in 2015.
1) His services are worth $8.5M.
2) He is being paid for past performance or past underpayment.
3) Belichick is in the habit over significantly over-paying players.

Is there anyone who thinks that Wilfork's 2015 performance will be worth $8.5M?
 
So, your opinion is that Wilfork should be compensated twice for his 2014 performance? Do you think that Wilfork wasn't paid enough for his 2014 performance in 2014. I was under the impression that he didn't lose any money once he collected on all the incentives.

There are only 3 situations under which Wilfork might be paid $8.5M for his services in 2015.
1) His services are worth $8.5M.
2) He is being paid for past performance or past underpayment.
3) Belichick is in the habit over significantly over-paying players.

Is there anyone who thinks that Wilfork's 2015 performance will be worth $8.5M?

What incentive would Vince Wilfork possibly have to take yet ANOTHER pay cut, after he just played nice and agreed to an incentive laden deal that he actually lived up to?

Many here doubted Wilfork's ability to:

1) return to health

2) stay in shape

3) remain a force in the middle of the defensive line

(and yet he did ALL of them and then some)

We're talking about a positional grouping which saw Sealver Siliga placed on short-term IR, Alan Branch brought off the streets, Chris Jones taking over the bulk of the work, first round pick Easley playing very sparingly and recording a total of FIVE tackles, and Joe Vellano patiently waiting in the wings as the next man up.

Vince Wilfork was the bright spot, and I believe that he'll have one last year here in 2015. Hopefully, Easley will improve and they will address the position again in the draft. I don't believe that either one of DT/DE are in a "good" position for the future, but there may be other priorities at the moment.
 
What incentive would Vince Wilfork possibly have to take yet ANOTHER pay cut, after he just played nice and agreed to an incentive laden deal that he actually lived up to?

Many here doubted Wilfork's ability to:

1) return to health

2) stay in shape

3) remain a force in the middle of the defensive line

(and yet he did ALL of them and then some)

We're talking about a positional grouping which saw Sealver Siliga placed on short-term IR, Alan Branch brought off the streets, Chris Jones taking over the bulk of the work, first round pick Easley playing very sparingly and recording a total of FIVE tackles, and Joe Vellano patiently waiting in the wings as the next man up.

Vince Wilfork was the bright spot, and I believe that he'll have one last year here in 2015. Hopefully, Easley will improve and they will address the position again in the draft. I don't believe that either one of DT/DE are in a "good" position for the future, but there may be other priorities at the moment.

I agree with all that you say. Wilfork did great last year. Wilfork would be valuable this year as part of a DT unit with Siliga, Jones, Easley and a top draft choice.

We agree that Wilfork will likely have ONE more good year.

If Belichick thinks that this last year is worth $8.5M of new money, then Belichick will pay the bonus and pay him the $8.5M.
 
I agree with all that you say. Wilfork did great last year. Wilfork would be valuable this year as part of a DT unit with Siliga, Jones, Easley and a top draft choice.

We agree that Wilfork will likely have ONE more good year.

If Belichick thinks that this last year is worth $8.5M of new money, then Belichick will pay the bonus and pay him the $8.5M.

I agree with you that it's too much, although how much "too much" is would be up for debate. I'd probably say that Wilfork is worth anywhere between 6--7.5m dollars in new money.

My concern is that I don't see how the Pats could get away with it (yet) by allowing him to walk, and I just don't think that Vince is going to agree to a pay cut again. That's why the offseason is still exciting, because we can wait it out, debate on the matter, and see what happens!
 
I agree with all that you say. Wilfork did great last year. Wilfork would be valuable this year as part of a DT unit with Siliga, Jones, Easley and a top draft choice.

We agree that Wilfork will likely have ONE more good year.

If Belichick thinks that this last year is worth $8.5M of new money, then Belichick will pay the bonus and pay him the $8.5M.

I just stumbled across this line while reading an article--"The Pats must also notify Vince Wilfork by March 9 if they plan to pick up his option for 2015 and 2016."

Is this true? If so, Does it change your outlook at all?
 
It may be inconsistent with Siliga's 2014 season where he started in 5/7 games, but I don't know that I'd agree that he's been that way for his "Pats career." As we've seen in the past, there have been many "starters" or full-time players who log a lot of reps on the DL who either don't stay or simply fit the role due to a lack of adequate talent level there in the first place. It's a position that changes fairly often on this team.
I'm talking about Siliga not other players. As we both know starting statistics are useless, especially here as we often do not start a base offense or defense.
Ever since he has been on the team, when he is healthy he gets the first or second most snaps of the DTs. That is fact. Whether there were other players at his position in past years, who played short term is really irrelevant. I'm not sure why you are even bringing it up.

It is my opinion that a guy like Siliga in 2015 is currently rotational depth (albeit important rotational depth at the current moment), rather than a bona fide starter. I come to this conclusion due to the following:
He was the 'starter' last year.

--Wilfork will be staying, as we've discussed and are in agreement with
we have 2 DTs in our defense.

--Easley will obviously see a much bigger role in 2015. Long gone are the days where he's logging 12/71 snaps
Why would Easley all of a sudden be ahead of Siliga when he wasn't all season? Its very likely that Siliga will play on early downs, and Easley in passing situations, like last year. Let's allow a player to earn a spot before we move him ahead of the guy who earned it competing against him.

--The possibility exists that we'll be drafting another DT in the top few rounds and/or bringing in a cost effective free agent
Last years #1 pick couldn't beat out Siliga, and the many veterans we had couldn't so I doubt this matters.
 
Some comments on the comments (at least the last page)

1. Its been proven over and over again that DLmen often take a few years to incubate into what they will ultimately become. Even all time great DLmen need time to develop. Seymour was a "nice piece" in 2001, but none of the fan base knew what we had after just one year. Ty Warren wasn't even that good his rookie year, and he turned out to be a fine 2 gap, 3-4 DE. Off the top of my head, Donatre Poe was considered a flat out bust his rookie year (by some), and now he's a major force, and the list can go on.

2. Siliga belongs to a class of players who seem to get better every year. Some players take years to reach their potential (see Bruschi). Others just are what they are by their 2nd year. This where you find those "gems" that come out of nowhere. Things like the combine are just a snapshot in time....but time goes on.

Siliga looks like he is one of those players who falls into that category. But right now his resume is small enough that its difficult to make comparisons of who he plays like or who he is better or worse than. Time will tell, but if his road of progression continues, 2015 might be the year when Siliga comes out of obscurity and be recognized as a solid NFL starter at DT

3. All this goes doubly for Dom Easley. He had to endure all the vicissitudes of a rookie defensive lineman PLUS coming off 2 ACL's and playing through shoulder and knee injuries during the season. I'm not sure what people expected from Easley last season, but I saw a LOT that made me hopeful.

a. That he was willing to play through injuries
b That he showed position flexibility
c. The he showed occasional flashes of the explosiveness we were promised. But certainly not as consistently as we need to see in 2015

Donald and Jernigan both had better rookie years, but that was just a "snapshot in time". There isn't any reason to dismiss that Easley couldn't reach their level this season...or not. Again time will tell, but there is way too much, " l need instant" talk from people who want to dismiss guys like Easley and Dobson as disappointments.

4. As for Vince, his recovery from his injury in 2013 was nothing short of remarkable. To say his play didn't exceed my highest expectations, would be a lie. However, even though he played the snaps he needed to reach his incentives, to say that his productivity on the field equaled that of what he gave us in 2010-12 would also be a lie. Vince was NOT the immoveable force in the middle that he used to be when he EARNED that big contract The Vince Wilfolk we saw in 2014 was NOT an elite DT, and $8.5MM is still elite money.

5. So the question becomes, not if Wilfok needs to take a cut, but is he willing to do it, and under what conditions can it be done. The obvious way would be to create a contract that would pay him that $8,5MM if he meets the production goals that would mean he'd earned it, while giving the Pats about $3-4MM in cap relief now.

Many think he wouldn't be willing to do it again. I say why not. Does anyone realistically think anyone is going to just hand $8MM guaranteed to a 35 year old DT who, while being still decent, is no longer elite. It's the classic Logan Mankins metaphor.

So what you do is show "some" love. You give him something. You give him a $3MM bonus on 3/10, with a $1MM salary that becomes guaranteed on 9/1. That's about what his current value is right now. The rest he earns if he can reach an elite level again. That I think is a fair deal and show a level of respect for his past services.

Also don't underestimate the fact that Vince isn't just some player who spends a few month in NE, and goes home. He's pretty much entrenched in the Foxboro community, so unless his next move is to Miami, I wonder if Bianca is willing to uproot her family over a few more dollars or a perceived slight

6. All that being said, my #1 priority in the draft, with a bullet, is that 6'5 320 lb DT, whether or not Vince comes back
 
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