Major overhaul on the o-line according to SMY (merged)

[Ivan]

Connolly at LG has got to provide better protection for Brady than Cannon. I suspect that the right side will often have an extra lineman (Cannon). Felming-Vollmer-Cannon should provide better protection than having Devey on the right side.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT INSTABILITY.

It is about having AWFUL play by our two guard wanabees: Cannon and Devey. It is impressive that the team has decided that the experiment has gone on long enough.

It's still an experiment, it just has different moving pieces.

 

[RIpats88]

mike giardi is now reporting the same thing. Fleming/stork practed with the starting offense this past week. So, looks like this is the lineup they are going to use. I would expect Connoly would be helping stork out with the protection calls/snap counts

 

[primetime]

Like mgteich, I'm a lot less worried about instability and much more worried about players not being a total dumpster fire. Fleming's not a prototypical guard, but doesn't mean he can't play it. Mankins was a tackle in college.

 

[Peachhead]

On what basis do you form this opinion? There are plenty of folks wondering about him, given the performance, but nobody who actually knows anything.

I've got no inside information. It's just my opinion.

We've got three formerly solid guys (Solder, Vollmer & Cannon) and one formerly OK guy (Connolly) regressing badly. A rookie (albeit a late rounder) who didn't make it out of camp and hasn't even gotten a sniff on anyone's practice squad. And very little in the way of bright spots. Pass protection sucks, run blocking sucks, hell..even our screen game sucks because D-linemen are getting in the way of it or tackling the receiver instantly. Sweeps don't work for that reason too. And inside runs suck as well. I just saw a graphic on ESPN, we've got the 23rd best offense and Brady has taken more hits over the first three games than any time in his career (11 more than last year).

I forget the name of the phenomenon, but many (many) years ago, in a business class, I learned that when you've got that many individuals in the same department (or line or unit) screwing up at the exact same time, it's rarely is the fault of the individuals. It's not a co-incidence. Several people don't usually screw up in the exact same way at the exact same time. If that happens it's systemic; it's higher up the chain. And since the only new coach on the team is the O-line coach, for me, that narrows it way down.

If say, a few guys sucked, but a few guys looked pretty good, or pass protection sucked but run blocking showed promise (or vice-versa) or any bright spots, however inconsistent, we could say "It's just a new system, and a learning curve. They'll get it with a little more time". But this is by far the worst O-line of the BB era, with little-to-no improvements from week-to-week, and a dearth of bright spots to hang our hat on.

 

[BradyManny]

To tell you the truth, I think tonight's line up was the original plan all along for the o-line minus Flemming.

Maybe true. But I'd find that easier to accept if Flemming was in from the getgo. I can buy they were waiting on Stork, but this whole Devey experiment doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[mgteich]

FLEMING is a RT. RT's often play RG in the NFL. he has been playing blocking TE so far this year.

The secret is out. CANNON is a better OT than OG. In fact, he might not be a guard at all. I had thought that only message boards thought that Cannon should play OG. I was shocked to see him start the season at LG. RG was always possible. Obviously, Fleming was drafted as an upgrade to Cannon. Cannon will be our backup OT, as he has been since his rookie year, a fine role for him. He is also an emergency backup at RG.

OTHER BACKUPS

WENDELL is our backup center. He is now healthy, and was signed to a new backup level contract in the off-season.

KLINE and DEVEY
are the UDFA backups with some experience. Both were her last year. Kline has some starts at LG. it was a surprise to most of us that Devey started in Game One instead of Kline.

BARKER
is on the Practice Squad and could be activated in case of injury or if the team wanted to dump someone.

Couple questions here and yes I have a lack of knowledge.
I know people are down on Devey and rightfully so but what about Kline?
Also, is Cannon better at G or OT?
I thought Flemming was an OT as well?

Do we have any other O-line guys for depth?

 

[Rob0729]

Maybe true. But I'd find that easier to accept if Flemming was in from the getgo. I can buy they were waiting on Stork, but this whole Devey experiment doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Pats have plugged rookies into other starting positions in an emergency and produced productive results almost immediately. For example, Eugene Wilson at FS.

 

[JackBauer]

Can someone explain why Cannon can apparently hack it at OT but not OG? The weird thing I noticed last week was that he was getting bull rushed back into the pocket, which isn't really what I expected to see in terms of weaknesses from him.

Just wondering what it is specifically about his skill set that lends itself to OT, but not OG, in the NFL.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Me, I'd start JAG the first series so if the change is a failure our main guy isn't killed

 

[mgteich]

The reason for the suckitude is not as difficult to discern as you make. The problem also is not as extensive as you suggest.

REPEAT TEN TIMES

CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.

I've got no inside information. It's just my opinion.

We've got three formerly solid guys (Solder, Vollmer & Cannon) and one formerly OK guy (Connolly) regressing badly, a rookie (albeit a late rounder) who didn't make it out of camp and hasn't even gotten a sniff on anyone's practice squad. And very little in the way of bright spots. Pass protection sucks, run blocking sucks, hell..even our screen game sucks because D-linemen are getting in the way of it or tackling the receiver instantly. I just saw a graphic on ESPN, we've got the 23rd best offense and Brady has taken more hit over the first three games than any time in his career (11 more than last year).

I forget the name of the phenomenon, but many (many) years ago, in a business class, I learned that when you've got that many individuals in the same department (or line or unit) screwing up at the exact same time, it rarely is the fault of the individuals. It's not a co-incidence. Several people don't usually screw up in the exact same way at the exact same time. If that happens it's systemic; it's higher up the chain. And since the only new coach on the team is the O-line coach, for me, that narrows it way down.

If say, a few guys sucked, but a few guys looked pretty good, or pass protection sucked but run blocking showed promise (or vice-versa) or any bright spots, however inconsistent, we could say "It's a new system, they'll get it with a little more time". But this is by far the worst O-line of the BB era, with little-to-no improvements from week-to-week, and a dearth of bright spots to hang our hat on.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.

There. According to mg, problem solved!

Next up, the solution at WR...

 

[Mack Herron]

The reason for the suckitude is not as difficult to discern as you make. The problem also is not as extensive as you suggest.

REPEAT TEN TIMES

CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.

You may be right. But Fleming and Cannon are both collegiate RTs who have good size but lack mobility and the grizzly attitude that Mankins had. One of Cannon's challenges (not the only one) was getting out and blocking on the move. Fleming has not done a lot of that either. Should be interesting.

At this point, Fleming doesn’t look to have a very good chance of developing into a serviceable tackle in the NFL, but he may have a better chance at guard. He’s on the bigger side for an interior lineman, but we’ve seen more and more 6-foot-5 and 6-foot-6 lineman moving inside in recent years, and Fleming could be a candidate. He obviously is very strong, and he always works well on double teams, so there doesn’t seem to be a glaring reason which would prevent him from at least getting a chance at guard.
http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/08/29/2014-nfl-draft-scouting-report-stanford-rt-cameron-fleming/

Bottom Line
Big, thickly built, experienced right tackle who graduated with a degree in aeronautics and astronautics and entered the draft early despite standing to benefit from another year of seasoning on The Farm. Has size and smarts to stick in a power/slide-protection scheme, but needs to make strides with his functional strength, technique and aggressiveness. Could be tried inside.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/cameron-fleming?id=2543654

 

[AzPatsFan]

Solder
Connolly
Stork
Fleming
Vollmer


Per Shalise Manza Young

Before the Mankins trade I predicted the draftees were going to play Center & RG, when many were saying Fleming was only a pure RT. After the Mankins trade, the Patriot Braintrust moved Cannon to LG, and he has played there through most of three games. The results haven't been spectacular to date, but some of that maybe to Solder's problems.

I suspect that with Connolly uncertain due to injury, the coaches planned for possibly three different Gs to start. That may be where Shalize's rumors started. It would make sense to prepare for the veteran to possibly play either of the two positions, if he could go.

It makes more sense than to have a rawish rookie have to try to suddenly learn plays for another position as some proposed. Connolly in his career has played at both G spots, but most of his experience is at RG and Center.

If Connolly couldn't go, it would have been Solder Cannon, Stork, Fleming, Vollmer and Wendell to fill in wherever a rookie couldn't cut it. They chose Stork to start because he outweighs Wendell by 25 #, and the big tackles like Dontari Poe give Wendell fits, and the prime reason he is losing his starting job.

Most of KC's pass rush comes from outside. So it makes sense to let the experienced tackles handle Hali and Houston, and that allows the coaches to experiment with the interior line, including giving Stork his first start, and Fleming making his first appearance at RG.

What say you, DI?

 

[Marinlik]

The have to find some combination and stick with it in order to develop any consistency and cohesion.

Agree. I feel the same way with the receivers. We can't switch everyone up all the time. Football really is a game where you have to really trust the one besides you and know what they are thinking. When the guy besides you differ each week, then you can't really get into that sync.

 

[Deus Irae]

What say you, DI?

With the reported changes, Dontari Poe could win this game for the Chiefs, pretty much all on his own. Will he? Time will tell. It will be interesting to see how the Patriots scheme for him. The Patriots are catching a break with the Chiefs missing their best ILB (gone for the season) and their best DB, so that will help with the game planning, but it should still be a lot of cat/mouse going on.

 

[mgteich]

You may be right. But Fleming and Cannon are both collegiate RTs who have good size but lack mobility and the grizzly attitude that Mankins had. One of Cannon's challenges (not the only one) was getting out and blocking on the move. Fleming has not done a lot of that either. Should be interesting.

I didn't have a problem with trying Cannon at RG (the mauler position), especially after the Mankins trade. I "wanted" to move Cannon to RG after his ineffectiveness at LG. This was true even though I had never have add confidence in Cannon as an OG. I think that we are lucky to have Cannon as a backup OT.

Yes, it should be interesting to see Fleming At RG.

 

[AzPatsFan]

CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.
CANNON is not an NFL quality LG.
DEVEY in not an NFL quality RG.
The experiment at OG has failed. It is time to move on.

There. According to mg, problem solved!

Next up, the solution at WR...

Now that there are no quality offensive linemen, according to you; I propose that we move Amendola, Dobson, and KT to LG, C, and RG! Problem solved !

 

[Kontradiction]

This is going to be a hell of a first test for them. But better to get it out of the way now before next week against the Bengals. Good luck to the two rooks. Just read Stork's profile about his dad and realized he grew up one county away from me and our two high schools played one another often. Even though he's an FSU alum, I'm rooting hard for him.

 

[mgteich]

Agree. I feel the same way with the receivers. We can't switch everyone up all the time. Football really is a game where you have to really trust the one besides you and know what they are thinking. When the guy besides you differ each week, then you can't really get into that sync.

I disagree somewhat.

I think that it is reasonable to decide on our 4th active WR based on matchup or performance.

I do agree that we should have more stability in at least some of the WR positions. I would note that so far, we really have had that. Only Dobson and Thompkins have been inactive. IMHO, the #4 and #5 don't get (and should not get) many reps.

We have Amendola, LaFell, Thompkins and Dobson.

The problem is more serious than you state.

Only LaFell has been performing at a reasonable level.

BOTTOM LINE - ONLY FIVE TARGETS USED VERY OFTEN
Edelman, Gronkowski, Vereen, LaFell, Wright

Brady needs another target.

 

[primetime]

Maybe true. But I'd find that easier to accept if Flemming was in from the getgo. I can buy they were waiting on Stork, but this whole Devey experiment doesn't make a lot of sense.

It makes as much sense as the Connolly, Wendell, Neal, Hochstein, Ashworth, Gorin, and Yates experiments. This one just happened to not work out, while the others all ranged from solid starters to acceptable backups. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of give in this line because even the players expected to be solid (Solder and Vollmer) have played like crap. Only one guy (Connolly) has played well.

The Pats have plugged rookies into other starting positions in an emergency and produced productive results almost immediately. For example, Eugene Wilson at FS.

Right, but that's an exception rather than the rule, and it was made from a spot of pure desperation (Antwan Harris was utter and complete garbage and they had just cut their Pro Bowl safety... actually, seems pretty similar to this situation). You don't want to have to do that, though sometimes (but not often) it works out. This is still desperation, albeit a better desperation play than continuing to start guys who are clearly terrible.