Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[WhoaDirty]

He seemed genuinely concerned about Martin and his text's showed as much.

Incog may act like a dbag once in a while but I doubt that's who he is, there's a kind person beneath that brash act, like most people we are more than what's on the surface.

Based on history, I don't think the bolded should be included in your statement.

 

[Jackson 2]

Michael Sam asking God "Please don't let the Dolphins draft me"

I'm guessing what Sam has already dealt with in his life would make him OK in dealing with the Dolphin ****ies.

 

[mayoclinic]

But we do know what he did. The report details both that Martin informed Incognito about his suicidal thoughts and that the abuse did not stop up until Martin's departure from the team. You're right that Martin didn't tell Incognito that he was partly to blame for his emotional situation. And let's say Incognito wasn't responsible (though I don't believe it in the least). He still knew his "friend" was suicidal. And yet he still couldn't be bothered to stop adding to his Martin's emotional instability. That speaks to his character more than anything else.

Thank you. That was my point.

Everything Incognito had done up to the point that Martin informed him he was having suicidal thoughts might be explained away by mere insensitivity and lack of awareness of the potential severity of the impact of his actions. But if you're part of a team "leadership" council and are supposed to have the good of the team and the big picture in mind, and you learn that one of your line mates is struggling that severely, do you (A) ease up on the ragging, realize that this is out of your depth, and inform the coaching staff so that they can provide the necessary intervention and support, or (B) continue isolating the guy and attempt to "break him" with personal attacks? Incognito chose option (B).

Can you imagine that Tedy Bruschi, Tom Brady, Rodney Harrison, Logan Mankins, Jerod Mayo or Vince Wilfork would ever have made that choice? Or that BB would have been kept unaware if one of his players was having suicidal thoughts?

 

[ssfire]

Thank you. That was my point.

Everything Incognito had done up to the point that Martin informed him he was having suicidal thoughts might be explained away by mere insensitivity and lack of awareness of the potential severity of the impact of his actions. But if you're part of a team "leadership" council and are supposed to have the good of the team and the big picture in mind, and you learn that one of your line mates is struggling that severely, do you (A) ease up on the ragging, realize that this is out of your depth, and inform the coaching staff so that they can provide the necessary intervention and support, or (B) continue isolating the guy and attempt to "break him" with personal attacks? Incognito chose option (B).

Can you imagine that Tedy Bruschi, Tom Brady, Rodney Harrison, Logan Mankins, Jerod Mayo or Vince Wilfork would ever have made that choice? Or that BB would have been kept unaware if one of his players was having suicidal thoughts?

No problem. I completely agree. And to the bolded, nope. I wonder what the hell Philbin was doing during this mess, honestly.

 

[Ring 6]

But we do know what he did.

We do not know what his reaction was to that conversation.

The report details both that Martin informed Incognito about his suicidal thoughts and that the abuse did not stop up until Martin's departure from the team.

Martin never told him he felt the treatment was abusive.

You're right that Martin didn't tell Incognito that he was partly to blame for his emotional situation. And let's say Incognito wasn't responsible (though I don't believe it in the least). He still knew his "friend" was suicidal. And yet he still couldn't be bothered to stop adding to his Martin's emotional instability. That speaks to his character more than anything else.

You cant say he was adding to the problem if he didn't know Martin had an issue.
You are ignoring that these were jokes, and Martin never stated that he found the jokes any more offensive than the average guy, who didn't have any problems from being the subject of a joke, as clearly many players were.
You could argue Incognito contributed to Martins psychological issues, but you cant claim he did it intentional or with knowledge it was happening. Even the report is clear on that.

 

[Ring 6]

Thank you. That was my point.

Everything Incognito had done up to the point that Martin informed him he was having suicidal thoughts might be explained away by mere insensitivity and lack of awareness of the potential severity of the impact of his actions. But if you're part of a team "leadership" council and are supposed to have the good of the team and the big picture in mind, and you learn that one of your line mates is struggling that severely, do you (A) ease up on the ragging, realize that this is out of your depth, and inform the coaching staff so that they can provide the necessary intervention and support, or (B) continue isolating the guy and attempt to "break him" with personal attacks? Incognito chose option (B).

You are assuming that the treatment would exacerbate the mental illness, and there is no claim that Incognito thought that or had that intent. Again, he felt it was a normal ball busting relationship that Martin never complained about. Why would he change the way he acted because of the suicidal admission if he felt it had nothing to do with that?
You are reaching for a more vicious intent than seems to exist.

Can you imagine that Tedy Bruschi, Tom Brady, Rodney Harrison, Logan Mankins, Jerod Mayo or Vince Wilfork would ever have made that choice? Or that BB would have been kept unaware if one of his players was having suicidal thoughts?

Who knows? We don't know them.
A year ago I could have said could you ever imagine Gronk, Brady, Wilfork, Hernandez, or Mayo murdering someone.

 

[Ring 6]

This was NOT common. Zolak has been pretty supportive of Incognito saying it's "part of the NFL locker room" until the report came out today. Today, he was talking about how this was outside the norm of NFL locker rooms after everything has come out. Bruschi was just on saying this was nothing like he has seen in te NFL and nothing Parcells or Belichick would have dealt with, and said he could never play with Incognito. A lot of Martins decision to leave was after talking with members of other teams who he was friends with, who called it atypical. Also, if Incognitos attitude is so common, why has it gotten him kicked off pretty much every team he's been on since he entered college?

I am saying the topics and types of jokes are common. I don't think there is much doubt. You can't take a quote about a 144 page report and say it applies to whatever part you want it to.
I would be pretty sure that the treatment of the trainer and the other OLman are more likely what they are saying is rare than making jokes that I'll F your sister.

I don't get where this, "IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE" comes from. There's a difference between a non-professional, politically incorrect, crass environment and an abusive environment. I don't expect a locker room to look like the board at Goldman Sachs, but no locker room should be abusive. A player left the team, the team fell apart in the last few weeks, this is a huge distraction, and players careers are over. How does this environment help anyone win a football game?

I don't know who you think is saying it was good that this happened.
I think the distinction being made here is that if the type of comments made toward Martin are somewhat common and Martin never objected then its hard to understand how it could be expected to stop, or considered abusive.

Let me give you an example. A guy walks into work every morning to a group of men, and says "Whats up ladies". He does this consistently and people chuckle or don't react, and no one ever tells him they have an issue. One of the men happens to be gay and is offended by the comment, fearing he will be outed. Ultimately he quits and says he was harassed.
Now the whats up ladies comment is probably not exactly appropriate, but hardly meant to be hurtful. This is a case of something being inappropriate, but how do you place the fault in continuing to do it when no one ever said stop?

Obviously this is not the exact same thing, but it illustrates one facet of the issue. Go ahead and call Incognito an idiot, inappropriate or inconsiderate, but taking the discussion to he knew it was hurting Martin and kept doing it anyway is pointless.

 

[Ring 6]

But we do know what he did. The report details both that Martin informed Incognito about his suicidal thoughts and that the abuse did not stop up until Martin's departure from the team. You're right that Martin didn't tell Incognito that he was partly to blame for his emotional situation. And let's say Incognito wasn't responsible (though I don't believe it in the least). He still knew his "friend" was suicidal. And yet he still couldn't be bothered to stop adding to his Martin's emotional instability. That speaks to his character more than anything else.

Actually this is addressed in the report and your assumption seems wrong.

Indeed, Incognito says that Martin’s entire story of alleged harassment is
inconsistent with their close personal relationship—which was so close, in fact, that
Martin felt comfortable revealing to Incognito details of his struggle with mental health
issues and his contemplation of suicide. In doing so, however, Incognito claimed, Martin
never suggested his troubles related to his treatment by his teammates—a fact that Martin
did not dispute. Incognito also emphasized that he cared so much about Martin and his
career that he counseled him not to engage in recreational drug use out of concern that it
would undermine his performance on the field.

 

[mayoclinic]

You are assuming that the treatment would exacerbate the mental illness, and there is no claim that Incognito thought that or had that intent. Again, he felt it was a normal ball busting relationship that Martin never complained about. Why would he change the way he acted because of the suicidal admission if he felt it had nothing to do with that?

You've got to be kidding. If you found out that one of your co-workers was having "suicidal" issues, regardless of what your intent was, "you wouldn't change the way you acted because of the suicidal admission" and you would engage in "ball busting" behavior with someone in that state. You'd denigrate them, issue crude and offensive statements against their family, all because it's "normal" and you didn't think it could have any impact in them? That's incredibly naive, and dangerously stupid.

Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald suggests that Joe Philbin treated this whole thing about as cavalierly as you would:

Philbin was aware Martin had been battling demons for some time. He knew Martin missed two days of offseason workouts in May. And he knew Martin told Turner he was in such a bad place he had suicidal thoughts.

Although Martin curiously declined to disclose why he was having these terrible thoughts, Turner reported the entire conversation to Philbin. And Philbin followed up with a 20-30-minute meeting with Martin, the report says.

At that meeting Philbin was, “genuinely sincere in his concern for Martin, and he attempted to provide meaningful assistance to the Martin family after learning that Martin was battling depression.”

But there’s a small problem with that narrative of compassion.

The report’s very next paragraph states: “After early May, Martin had no in-depth follow-up conversations with either Coach Philbin or Coach Turner about his mental health issues.”

Philbin is said to have occasionally asked Martin how he was doing. But guess what? Coaches regularly ask all their players how they’re doing.

The player who had admitted to battling depression and thinking of suicide, the player who didn’t show up to work and would eventually flee the team got no more attention from Philbin than other players after early May.

In that regard, Philbin was merely a spectator during the lead-up to the biggest scandal ever to rock the franchise.

Armando Salguero: Wells report shows Jim Turner will be fall guy, but makes clear Miami Dolphins job is too big for Joe Philbin - Armando Salguero - MiamiHerald.com

 

[Fixit]

I got through the first page of this thread and felt like I needed to take a shower.

Honestly, some of you are still defending Incognito? After that report? After the stuff about the trainer? After the video of him roid-raging and dropping n-bombs? After he sexually harassed a woman with a golf club?

He acts up sometimes? There's a "kind guy" beneath the "act?"

So, Martin is the bad guy because he's admittedly mentally weak. But Incognito was just having fun and, hey, look at him showing real concern! What a goddamn pal!

No, it doesn't happen in every locker room. No, Martin isn't less of a man because he didn't punch Incognito in the face; the guy just isn't wired for confrontation (which he admits, which I can imagine is pretty emasculating in and of itself). No, constantly talking about running a train on a guy's sister isn't normal behavior between buddies. No, keeping a running tally on being able to break a guy down isn't cool. Christ on a cracker. No, announcing on Twitter that a dude was having suicidal thoughts isn't a joke in any way, shape or goddamn form, nor is continuing the abuse after you're aware he's having suicidal thoughts.

I'm also not surprised that some of you who are defending him are also resorting to the time-honored tradition of comparing him to a woman. Hey, gynecology humor! But what's a little misogyny at this point? Honestly, if you're still on Team Richie, there's a pretty good chance you're just an ass****.

Honestly, some of you make me want to f****** puke. I hope that you're never the only person between a harasser and a victim, because that poor sap might as well be alone.

 

[primetime]

Um, you've heard about Matt Light's practical jokes, right? When he stole the tires off of Matt Cassel's car and put three in his locker (not 4) was he bullying Matt Cassel? Was Bill Belichick stopping said bullying?

Maybe if he had stolen his tires, forced him to buy new ones, called him a racial invective, and then texted him that he was going to kill his family it might be comparable.

 

[unoriginal]

Honestly, some of you make me want to f****** puke. I hope that you're never the only person between a harasser and a victim, because that poor sap might as well be alone.

I think you are being unfair here. I certainly wouldn't be a passive bystander to abuse.

It's always easy to say you'd make the right decision in a similar situation, but I'd like to think I'd have the guts to join in the abuse in order to curry favor with the dominant male. Really he could turn on anyone next and I would hope I would have the sense not to offer myself as his next target, or associate myself with his current victim.

And in any case if he does destroy his current target that's one less competitor in my way so as long as I stick with the group I'll probably move one rung up the ladder!

 

[OhExaulted1]

He seemed genuinely concerned about Martin and his text's showed as much.

Incog may act like a dbag once in a while but I doubt that's who he is, there's a kind person beneath that brash act, like most people we are more than what's on the surface.

Sorry, but beneath that "brash act" he's still just a douche-



2007 season-Incognito played and started at right guard for four games after being inactive for the first four weeks of the season. In early November, Incognito suffered a knee injury that forced him to miss the remainder of season. However, while rehabilitating, it was later revealed that he had been partying nightly

2009 NFL's "Dirtiest" Player-Incognito has garnered attention over the years for perceived dirty play amongst NFL players, coaches, and fans. He has been alleged to have gouged players' eyes, punched players, and made illegal tackles on a regular basis. In 2009, NFL players voted Incognito as the dirtiest player in the league, according to a Sporting News poll


2012 season-During the Dolphins' annual celebrity golf tournament at the Turnberry Isle Resort and Club in Aventura, Florida, a drunken Incognito harassed a female volunteer at the club. He rubbed her private parts with a golf club, pressed his private parts against her buttocks and dumped water in her face.

 

[goheels22002]

By all reports, the locker room wasn't toxic until Martin threw a hissy fit about it and reporters invaded like a bunch of locusts. If you don't believe that the Pats bust one another's balls in a similar fashion behind closed doors, then I'm not sure what to tell you. It's a locker room. Immature and sick senses of humor run rampant. This is an excellent example.

And, again, African American teammates by and large publicly BACKED Incognito. Not Martin. What say you about that?

I say that the Dolphins haven't had a winning season since 2008 - not once in Incognito's time with the team. So it's hard to see where expending time and energy on "immature and sick senses of humor" with the coaches and targeted at teammates and trainers is the direction you want to go here. Just because players didn't step forward to defend Martin does not justify any of this, especially when the position coach who controls your snap count, and probably your job is in on it.

And never once in five seasons with the Rams did they have a winning record. Incognito got cut by Steve Spagnuolo for insubordination on the field during a game.

This guy is a loser. He has never experienced a winning record in the NFL.

Remember Bountygate? The coaches were in on that, too. Players are going to go along with the behavior that helps them keep their six- and seven-figure jobs.

 

[robbomango]

Sorry, but beneath that "brash act" he's still just a douche-



2007 season-Incognito played and started at right guard for four games after being inactive for the first four weeks of the season. In early November, Incognito suffered a knee injury that forced him to miss the remainder of season. However, while rehabilitating, it was later revealed that he had been partying nightly

2009 NFL's "Dirtiest" Player-Incognito has garnered attention over the years for perceived dirty play amongst NFL players, coaches, and fans. He has been alleged to have gouged players' eyes, punched players, and made illegal tackles on a regular basis. In 2009, NFL players voted Incognito as the dirtiest player in the league, according to a Sporting News poll


2012 season-During the Dolphins' annual celebrity golf tournament at the Turnberry Isle Resort and Club in Aventura, Florida, a drunken Incognito harassed a female volunteer at the club. He rubbed her private parts with a golf club, pressed his private parts against her buttocks and dumped water in her face.

I meant to say "possibly a kind guy beneath the brash act" but that's debatable after reading some if the report or maybe not lol

 

[goheels22002]

He seemed genuinely concerned about Martin and his text's showed as much.

Incog may act like a dbag once in a while but I doubt that's who he is, there's a kind person beneath that brash act, like most people we are more than what's on the surface.

It might be a good idea to think a bit about Incognito going back to his freshman year in college. This is exactly who he is:

Y! SPORTS

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=1895329

 

[Mike the Brit]

It might be a good idea to think a bit about Incognito going back to his freshman year in college. This is exactly who he is:

Y! SPORTS

Coach: Player didn't fulfill conditions - College Football - ESPN

I note that Seymour was fined $30,000 for punching Richie Incognito. Money well spent! :rocker:

 

[Betterthanmost]

He seemed genuinely concerned about Martin and his text's showed as much.

Incog may act like a dbag once in a while but I doubt that's who he is, there's a kind person beneath that brash act, like most people we are more than what's on the surface.

What are you referring to? Those text that was well written? Read the report and you will see through him. He did that to release it to the media. Within an hour of sending those text to Martin, read what he sent to Pouncey about Martin.
I strongly believe players are still scared of people in that dressing room. Pouncey might be a dangerous guy to cross.

 

[robbomango]

It might be a good idea to think a bit about Incognito going back to his freshman year in college. This is exactly who he is:

Y! SPORTS

Coach: Player didn't fulfill conditions - College Football - ESPN

When the story first broke I couldn't stand Incog but after reading the texts between he and Martin, hearing the team and his side of it I thought I had him wrong and felt he might be a decent guy but reading the Weiss report I'm starting to go back to my original point of view that he's a jerk.

 

[Demosthenes]

Only read the first page or so and the last 2 or so pages of posts in this thread, so someone else might have already said this, but:


OMFG, are you kidding me ? Do some of you all remember that we are talking about a FOOTBALL locker room ? It's a FOOTBALL locker room! A place filled with alpha males who's job is to physically manhandle and intimidate others.

I'm sorry, but if Martin didn't want to be "the "*itch", he should have stood the F up. Standing up doesn't mean that you have to throw punches or fight.

If this were a normal company boardroom or office, it would be completely different. But normal companies don't normally select people for their aggression and/or their ability to throw other people around.

This little bit from page 16 of the report spells it out:

(Martin) I’m never gonna change. I got punked again today. Like a little *****. And I never do anything about it.

Am up to page 26 of the report now and the only thing that MIGHT, MIGHT be a concern to so far is the stuff with the Assistant Trainer. Even here, I can see where lines could be blurred and unintentionally crossed.

FTR, a friend of mine is Korean and both of us exchange ethnic insults with each other all the time. Difference here though is that we have a close friendship as we've been friends for years, which makes the situation much different.