Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[BradyManny]

if Martin had been able to take it, you would never know this happened.

How do you not get it?? The whole point is that he couldn't take it, so it should have stopped.

And yes, I do know it hasn't happened in the Pats locker room because they've never had a player leave for these reasons or had to suspend a player for these reasons.

 

[DaBruinz]

Where are the complaints that the NFL gets filled with dozens of underclassmen yearly? In fact, GMs are salivating that this year's draft eligible underclassmen group will be the largest ever.
Keep it simple...Wins and losses......everything else is noise. And if one feels the absolute need to comment on societal evolution, choose a different window to peer through than the NFL peep hole. Its primative, undemocratic, almost plantation like....except for the million dollar checks.......And it Works So Well
Now back to watching figure skating. Analyst Johnny Weir is wearing a sequin blouse with tassels, eyelash extensions, and a stunning tiara that compliments his dangling necklace and bracelets. Go Team USA

Yep. It's all about wins and losses. That's why they have the Rookie Symposium every year to help educate the rookies on what is and isn't tolerated. On how to invest their money. On how to stay away from drugs and such.. But, yeah, it's all about wins and losses and the teams don't care about the players at all

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't know exactly where the line is between harmless, immature, testosterone- and insecurity-fueled locker room antics/behavior and abusive behavior. But one place to draw that line is when it gets to the point of making another professional feel demeaned or severely uncomfortable. Saying that someone who feels demeaned or otherwise abused as a result of such behavior is "too sensitive" or any of the other embarrassing characterizations that have been invoked in this case (his "gyno?" Really?) is both pathetically ignorant on some very basic levels and very wrong.

The evidence that behavior that rises to the level of abusive is not only insensitive but damaging is well-established and increasingly accepted across our society, from Elementary School to the workplace. An NFL locker room is not just a site where talented, young athletes gather but it is also a workplace for highly paid professionals and, even more importantly, a place which many young people admire and to which a good number of them aspire. Martin was part of the Miami locker room and belonged there because of his abilities.

None of us will ever know what really happened between Incognito and Martin and others, nor can any of us ever know what Incognito's motives truly were or what went on inside Martin's head as it built over time, as it seems to have done, but Ted Wells seems to have done a pretty thorough job of piecing together what can be known. The pattern of identifying with and appeasing abusers is so well-documented that it does not need to be described here.

I look forward to reading Wells' entire report, as I do wonder where the grownups were in this case. My instinct is that coaches like BB and his assistants know where the line is between "boys will be boys" and abuse. That line was clearly crossed here and I fault the Miami coaches for not being able to recognize it. I also fault the team "leadership" in not sorting this out before it became a mess. I'm sure that Tom Brady knows how to give as good as he gets when it comes to "ball busting" his friends, but I also have a high degree of confidence that he knows where the line is that says it has gone too far.

 

[DarrylS]

 

[Deus Irae]

How do you not get it?? The whole point is that he couldn't take it, so it should have stopped.

No, that's not the whole point. Dear God, what has become of this country? First, there is a right to free speech, but not a right to not be offended. Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

You're demanding both a non-existent right and that people immediately develop mental telepathy.

 

[DaBruinz]

Have you played football, at the high school level or beyond? I have, and this kind of smack-talk is actually completely normal.

If you haven't done it you won't understand.

Really? You left messages on a teammates phone that you wanted to kill his mother and rape his sister? I've been in locker-rooms and that sort of ***** wasn't tolerated at all.. Some low brow stuff maybe, but that is way beyond low brow or smack talk..

 

[Ring 6]

They got destroyed in the last two games to crappy teams. And an 8-8 record is nothing to write home about given the investments they made in the offseason. And they lost 2 offensive linemen in the process.

8-8 appears good for the talent they have and is a step in the right direction.

Regardless, you have no idea whether these incidents affected them on the field, with the exception of the players being gone, but most observers felt the OL improved after that.

I think we're all certain a lot of low-brow humor goes on inside locker rooms, and 99% of it goes without any issue. The point you and others are missing is that it clearly was bothering a player, clearly was a distraction, and had legitimate ramifications on their team (Martin leaving, Incognito suspended). There is no arguing those points.

You are arguing Belichick wouldn't allow it. You just admitted he does as it goes on in all lockerrooms. If Martin doesn't tell anyone it bothers him, then it is impossible to address.

Some people are way too caught up in making this debate about political correctness to face facts. We all agree that an NFL locker room is going to have its fair share of inappropriate stuff. Why do we have to talk about the "line" being crossed as if its some completely intangible thing. The line was obviously crossed when it ended up that the Dolphins lost 40% of their offensive line.

Again I am responding to your claim that BB would never allow this type of behavior and winning teams don't do these type of things.
I say it is what this demographic of people does, its normal, and while the degree of Martin taking it personally is extreme, it happens to some degree in all 32 lockerrooms.
It seems you are now agreeing with me.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Really? You left messages on a teammates phone that you wanted to kill his mother and rape his sister? I've been in locker-rooms and that sort of ***** wasn't tolerated at all.. Some low brow stuff maybe, but that is way beyond low brow or smack talk..

Have you played football, at the high school level or beyond?

 

[BradyManny]

Second, Martin himself wrote to his father that he wasn't letting his teammates know that he had a problem with this stuff.

FACT: Jonathan Martin told me he thought about taking his own life in MAY 2013 b/c he wasn't playing well. Told me he felt worthless.

Yes. Incognito should've resorted to mental telepathy to realize Martin was emotionally fragile. Nothing to see here! :bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes. Incognito should've resorted to mental telepathy to realize Martin was emotionally fragile. Nothing to see here! :bricks:

Jonathan Martin told me he thought about taking his own life in MAY 2013 b/c he wasn't playing well. Told me he felt worthless.

I see you conveniently chose to ignore the part about that tweet that was actually important. I bolded it for you. There's nothing there about being teased or bullied, though...

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Have you played football, at the high school level or beyond? I have, and this kind of smack-talk is actually completely normal.

If you haven't done it you won't understand.

So your logic is because something is done one way in high school that it should be the very same at a professional level... well I'm sold. Getting back to how hard it is to take some comments in this thread seriously.

 

[Ring 6]

How do you not get it?? The whole point is that he couldn't take it, so it should have stopped.

How do you propose that someone stop doing something because the other person cant take it when the other person doesnt tell anyone they are bothered by it?

And yes, I do know it hasn't happened in the Pats locker room because they've never had a player leave for these reasons or had to suspend a player for these reasons.

No you don't. All you know is the Patriots never had a player walk out on the team and claim they were harassed. The exact same incidents could have happened and no one too them as Martin did. No other Dolphin walked out or reported anything.

 

[Nunchucks]

So your logic is because something is done one way in high school that it should be the very same at a professional level... well I'm sold. Getting back to how hard it is to take some comments in this thread seriously.

In my high school lockeroom, people were called all kinds of homophobic slurs....I did not particularly care for that and I am not sure how that keeps people together. I certainly would not stand for it in my locker room as a coach.

 

[Kontradiction]

You do realize that the person who made the statement about Incognito was actually one of the participants in the bullying, yes?

Richie Incognito Considered 'Honorary Black Man,' Not Racist By Dolphins Teammates: REPORTS



Citing a player who was fingered as part of the bullying doesn't help the credibility of your argument.

And Tannehill... and Hartline... and Clabo... and Wallace.

Not citing other players that were involved with backing Incognito destroys your argument.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

How do you propose that someone stop doing something because the other person cant take it when the other person doesnt tell anyone they are bothered by it?

Generally speaking when you're fining yourself for 'breaking' someone it's a good sign you might want to take your foot off the pedal.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I see you conveniently chose to ignore the part about that tweet that was actually important. I bolded it for you. There's nothing there about being teased or bullied, though...

After being informed that his teammate/friend was contemplating suicide, Incognito continued to relentlessly mock the guy and allowed others to do the same.

Again, I'm not against locker room culture and lowbrow humor, but there were red flags all over this situation. If anything, this quote completely destroys your position that nobody knew anything was wrong, and nobody could have been reasonably expected to know since he didn't tell them.

The fact that Incognito didn't take that conversation as a turning point, have his teammate's back, and try to actually help him, says a fair amount about the guy. I'd still take him on the Patriots, because he's really good at football and it seems that most of the locker room liked the guy and had his back. But it's clear that he's the kind of guy that needs to be policed and held in check. When you go in the polar opposite direction and allow someone like him to set the tone of the locker room... well, you get the 2013 Dolphins.

Side note: who doesn't have a friend like that? A well-intentioned guy who is also a socially ******ed and takes everything way, way too far, to the point that he alienates people for no good reason. I assume we all know someone like that, and the answer to how to deal with them is always the same: that person needs to be held in check by the rest of the group: you need to force him to dial it back when he's too dumb to realize he should be doing it himself.

Every social group that I've ever been a part of--childhood, high school, college, and post-college adult life--has contained at least one guy like this. He just doesn't know where the line is, and if he isn't held back by the rest of the group he'll go to really weird, really dark places in the name of 'just joking around'. It's pretty ****ed up in a lot of ways, but if you genuinely think that he's just trying to fit in and doesn't realize how much of an ******* he is, you tolerate it, and you handle him by holding him accountable, establishing boundaries, and calling him out when he crosses them.

 

[Snake Eyes]

So your logic is because something is done one way in high school that it should be the very same at a professional level... well I'm sold. Getting back to how hard it is to take some comments in this thread seriously.

I wrote "high school or beyond", and I'll assume that the answer for you is no.

You're trying to judge something you have no experience in and simply don't understand.

 

[BradyManny]

Regardless, you have no idea whether these incidents affected them on the field, with the exception of the players being gone, but most observers felt the OL improved after that.

LOL! Are you seriously trying to justify this whole thing by saying that the OL got better without them! My goodness.

Again I am responding to your claim that BB would never allow this type of behavior and winning teams don't do these type of things.
I say it is what this demographic of people does, its normal, and while the degree of Martin taking it personally is extreme, it happens to some degree in all 32 lockerrooms.
It seems you are now agreeing with me.

First off, what's normal in an NFL locker room does not equate to being normal in real life. There is nothing normal about the things Incognito said to Martin, and in any other environment, we wouldn't even be having this debate.

I said that inappropriate comments happen in every NFL locker room - I object to accepting that Belichick lets players get singled out. There's no evidence for it, the burden of proof is on you to suggest that not only is that the norm, but that it happens in the Patriots locker room. Belichick's statements, statements of former players, etc. are on my side. Your half-assed best guess of the situation is all of your evidence. Please try better.

Ultiamtely, there were grown-ups in the room (that may or may not include the players) who should've recognized what was going on and that a line had been crossed, and that it was affecting the team. Martin claims he never told anyone about his mental health, but Incognito's own statements contradict this.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes. Incognito should've resorted to mental telepathy to realize Martin was emotionally fragile. Nothing to see here! :bricks:

I think you need to take a step back and realize that the way NFL players, or male athletes in general, and particularly football player is not the same way executives act in the board room, or coworkers talk to each other at the local bank.
The type of talk that was going on is typical in that demographic and location.
Martin did not say 'stop, I find what you do routinely to be deeply offensive to me"
When it is common and no one objects, you cannot say everyone should have known it was bothering him.
Martin also participated in busting balls in the lockerroom.

Are we really saying F your sister jokes in a football lockerroom are a warning sign of suicide?

 

[AzorianPats]

Can't believe people are still defending Incognito. Dude is an insecure punk.

Not for nothing. Mike Pouncey looks absolutely horrible in all this. This guy supposed to be a captain, and he's bull bullying teammates and a trainer. But I guess all this is supposed to be ok, just because it's what happens in a locker room. ....

That excuse is pure B.S.