Ed Reed released by Texans ... signs with Jets

[Deus Irae]

Jamie Collins was a highly rated prospect. He was 60th overall on CBS/NFLDraftScout. He got points off for being raw and on the worst team in college football. His ceiling/potential was well worth the pick IMO.

As a pure pick (ignoring success/failure of the individual and looking only at need/talent), it was probably the stupidest pick of the BB era.

 

[ausbacker]

It was probably the stupidest pick of the BB era.

BB has proven time and time again that he requires the fan stamp of approval before making a draft pick selection.

 

[Rob0729]

It was probably the stupidest pick of the BB era.

How can you make such a statement nine games into his career? You are making it hard to argue that my so called personal attacks on you aren't just accurate assessments of your posting style with statements like this.

 

[patsinthesnow]

It was probably the stupidest pick of the BB era.

Wow. Just curious, besides the whole non-need pick vs. drafting a need at safety in Swearinger (I get that), do you feel Collins will flame out big time then?

It's a surprising comment since the year before we picked an UDFA safety at pick 48 who currently blows. You hate the Collins pick more than Tavon?

 

[Deus Irae]

BB has proven time and time again that he requires the fan stamp of approval before making a draft pick selection.

:noidea:

This is a football forum. I don't want to keep going down the road about that pick, and I've avoided posting about it for most of the season, but I'm not going to buy into the "great pick!" nonsense, either.

 

[manxman2601]

1.) Drafting a project LB when there are quality safety prospects available to fix an obvious, and 'immediate' (meaning year one, not necessarily game one), problem at safety is lousy draft strategy. It's sort of like drafting a 5th round safety prospect in the 2nd round when there were other positions with major needs that could have been filled with better prospects. Hey, why does that sound familiar?

Curious. If Jamie Collins turns into Von Miller nest year would you still feel that way?

And yes I realise that's almost certainly an exaggeration.

 

[manxman2601]

Come on guys. Three of you in a row misquoted Deus there.

 

[Deus Irae]

How can you make such a statement nine games into his career?

Because it's about the pick, not the player.

You are making it hard to argue that my so called personal attacks on you aren't just accurate assessments of your posting style with statements like this.

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

 

[ausbacker]

:noidea:

This is a football forum. I don't want to keep going down the road about that pick, and I've avoided posting about it for most of the season, but I'm not going to buy into the "great pick!" nonsense, either.

Well Deus, I am stunned that you would make such a comment after calling it the stupidest pick of the BB era. Really, you have no ground to stand on. Collins has his rookie contract to make a proper assessment.

LB was/is just as big a need as Safety has been.

 

[Crononaut]

I think a lot of you are missing Deus's point. It's irrelevant how amazing a Linebacker/DE Jamie Collins ends up being. It was a bad pick because we used our top pick in the draft on one of our strongest positions (LB) that could possibly end up playing at one of our average positions (DE). Our need for at safety and wide receiver, at the time, was much, much higher.

I don't necessarily agree that it was the worst pick, but I definitely agree with the premise. Given that BB knew our strength at LB, he must have been ranked crazy high on the Patriots draft board over other players at weak positions.

 

[ausbacker]

I think a lot of you are missing Deus's point. It's irrelevant how amazing a Linebacker/DE Jamie Collins ends up being. It was a bad pick because we used our top pick in the draft on one of our strongest positions (LB) that could possibly end up playing at one of our average positions (DE). Our need for at safety and wide receiver, at the time, was much, much higher.

I don't necessarily agree that it was the worst pick, but I definitely agree with the premise. Given that BB knew our strength at LB, he must have been ranked crazy high on the Patriots draft board over other players at weak positions.

I don't consider the Patriots LB corp to be one of their strongest units. Spikes is excellent against the run and a liability in coverage, Fletcher is excellent in coverage and not as strong against the run, Hightower is starting to establish himself but seems a little slow and then you have your All Pro level LB on IR. No, I'm fine with the Collins pick. What is a little concerning is the lack of playtime/development from Collins but as mentioned, I give all rookies their rookie contract to establish themselves.

If you can fill every need a team has in one off season, you're a super GM IMO.

 

[BritPat]

Teams drafting for need tend to be drafting for need every year. Because they suck.

The Draft is about making your entire roster better from top to bottom.

People still don't get it.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

It sounds as iif reed chose the jets over the pats purely for famililiarity with the jets scheme. If Bb put in a claim, couldn't he have prevented this? I mean i realize there's no guarantee reed would actually sign with the pats - the worst that could have happened was he'd retire. Maybe im wrong, i dunno.

 

[ausbacker]

Teams drafting for need tend to be drafting for need every year. Because they suck.

The Draft is about making your entire roster better from top to bottom.

People still don't get it.

I must admit, I was left banging my head against the table when BB went back to back with Vereen and Ridley. That approach seems to be paying dividends now.

BB isn't infallible but I trust his judgement given his reputation and record.

 

[supafly]

It sounds as iif reed chose the jets over the pats purely for famililiarity with the jets scheme. If Bb put in a claim, couldn't he have prevented this? I mean i realize there's no guarantee reed would actually sign with the pats - the worst that could have happened was he'd retire. Maybe im wrong, i dunno.

Yes, he could have prevented this from putting in a waiver claim.

The reason no team put in a waiver claim is due to the fact that it would've cost them the remaining money on his previous deal. Once he becomes a FA, that changes and he can negotiate a brand new deal.

 

[Deus Irae]

Curious. If Jamie Collins turns into Von Miller nest year would you still feel that way?

And yes I realise that's almost certainly an exaggeration.

Yes, because I'm talking about 'need/value' and the pick, as opposed to the particular player. It's similar to why I defended the Brandon Tate pick even after he was busting and people were complaining because the Patriots hadn't taken Mike Wallace. In that case, the Patriots had already used picks to address need areas and I felt that taking a flier there was justified and sensible under those circumstances.

 

[Deus Irae]

...LB was/is just as big a need as Safety has been.

And now we've got the crazy talk going.

 

[manxman2601]

Yes, because I'm talking about 'need/value' and the pick, as opposed to the particular player. It's similar to why I defended the Brandon Tate pick even after he was busting and people were complaining because the Patriots hadn't taken Mike Wallace. In that case, the Patriots had already used picks to address need areas and I felt that taking a flier there was justified and sensible under those circumstances.

Right. But aside from QB, a team isn't defined by one position. A better OL improves a running game for example. A better pass rush improves a secondary. I'm not trying to say that Jamie Collins will be the next Von Miller because that's rather wishful but taking things to the hypothetical level, even if the greatest need is at safety, is not the team helped more by getting an elite pass rusher rather than an average safety (particularly when the safety need is later filled). The "need" at safety in that situation surely becomes subordinate to the "value" of an elite pass rusher.

 

[manxman2601]

And now we've got the crazy talk going.

A good coverage LB has been a need for a while.

 

[Crononaut]

I don't consider the Patriots LB corp to be one of their strongest units. Spikes is excellent against the run and a liability in coverage, Fletcher is excellent in coverage and not as strong against the run, Hightower is starting to establish himself but seems a little slow and then you have your All Pro level LB on IR. No, I'm fine with the Collins pick. What is a little concerning is the lack of playtime/development from Collins but as mentioned, I give all rookies their rookie contract to establish themselves.

If you can fill every need a team has in one off season, you're a super GM IMO.

I'm surprised you don't consider the LB corps as highly as I do. Going into the draft, how would you have ranked the groups? Mine was something like:

Top Level: QB, TE, RB - Generally the strongest points of our team, young across the board except for Brady, who until a year or two before he's finished playing, eliminates the need to draft another QB.

Solid: LB, DT - I was perfectly fine with the combo of Hightower, Mayo, and Spikes. Would agree it could use some depth, but all are in the first half of their careers (hopefully) which is a big plus. Hard to complain with big Vince in there. I want to say I definitely wouldn't have minded some depth and to begin looking towards the future, but honestly I think that might be some hindsight bias.

Average: CB, DE - We thought we had the beginnings of a decent secondary with Talib and Dennard. It has been solidified at this point, but back then I don't recall being so sure. We definitely wanted more depth. DE was similar, we were banking big on Chandler Jones breaking out (and thus far has done well this season), and Ninko's a playmaker, but two top tier pass rushers are better than one.

Need: S, WR - I had confidence in McCourty. Gregory was playing nowhere near as well as he has this year, and our backup situation was pretty scary. Definitely one of my top concerns going into the draft. I was initially going to put WR at abysmal, but again that's revisionist as we did have a number of vets signed at the time who all fizzled. Still, our sure things were Amendola and Edelman. By far our biggest hole going into the draft IMO.

To be fair to Bill, if I recall correctly the next two (or two of three) picks included a WR (Dobson) and S (Harmon). And don't get me wrong, I'm not unhappy Collins is a Patriot. I just don't agree with the idea of reaching for a guy you could probably get later at a position that, at least IMO, was at best 4th on my list of needs.

It's also easier to say he was worth it, I think, in light of the fact that thus far this may be one of Bill's better drafts. If Dobson and Harmon were busts, I think it would be easier to criticize the pick.