The Official Rounds 2&3 2013 NFL Draft Thread

[DaBruinz]

I think every single person sitting in that draft room, including Robert Kraft knows who is making the final decision, whether it is the consensus of the room or not. This is BB's team and he makes all the decisions. He puts people he trusts into positions of power, but in the end if he has final say. The reports were that the Pats were trying to trade the pick and couldn't, in the end I think they panicked and BB just took 'his' guy. When BB says "we are taking this guy" I don't think Nick Caserio or anyone else in that room will change his mind. If this was any other team they would be crucified for this pick, I don't see why the Pats should be any different.

So, it is your belief that BB is an idiot and doesn't learn from his mistakes. That he has put guys in power who are just "Yes" men. And it's your belief that BB has changed how he sets the draft board up. That it's no longer done by a consensus between him and the VP/Director of Player Personnel. That it's just him with the VP/Director being a "YES" man.

The fact that you think BB "panicked" is a joke, right? If they weren't able to get fair value for the pick, then they took the top name from their board. That's how they've done it.

And the early Super Bowl wins of the Pats were built on the drafts of previous regimes and the veteran talent BB put together. Plus a lucky 6th round pick that nobody including BB thought would be a 10th of the player he became. So lets not pretend that BB's drafting prowess was the reason for the early Super Bowls. He is a very good drafter, but he also makes some horrible, head scratching picks sometimes.

You're right. What was I thinking. The picks of Seymour, Light, Branch, Givens, Warren, Wilfork, Green, Wilson, Samuel, Koppen, Graham and Watson had no bearing on the SBs that the Pats won. How silly of me.

You can pretend whatever you want. I'll deal with reality and the fact that without the draft process where BB and Pioli both agreed on a pick or it didn't make the draft board clearly had an impact on the 4 SBs that they went to from 2001 to 2008.

Oh, the head scratching picks are fewer and more far between than people care to admit.

 

[DaBruinz]

2000
Klemm
Redmond - Not a bust
Randall – Not a bust. He was the Pats starting RT in 2001. Just because they traded him doesn’t make him a bust.

2001
Brock Williams
Kenyatta Jones
Jabari Holloway

2002
Rohan Davey – Not a bust. He became the #1 back-up.

2003
Bethel Johnson – Not a bust.
Dan Klecko

2004
Marquise Hill – the guy died. Calling him a bust is moronic on your part. Not to mention that none of the Pats players considered him a bust. They considered him a valuable part of the organization. That’s why they kept his locker up for the year after he’d passed.

Guss Scott
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs

2005
Claridge – Calling him a bust because he suffered the traumatic loss of his brother is pure ignorance on your part. Also, he was a 5th round pick. So he doesn’t fit your 2nd to 4th criteria.

2006
Garrett Mills
Ryan O'Callaghan – A 5th round pick.

2007
Kareem Brown

2008
Wheatley
Crable
O'Connell
Wilhite

2009
Chung – Not a bust. 3 year starter.
Brace
Butler
Tate
McKenzie
Ohrnberger

2010
Cunningham – How can he be a bust? He played meaningful snaps last year?
Price

2011
Ras-IR Dowling – Can’t call a guy a bust after just 2 years unless he’s out of the game. Dowling earning a starting spot each of his 2 years.
Mallett (Done nothing and shown nothing in the NFL) – He’s a project QB. He also showed enough for the Pats to be comfortable with just HIM on the roster behind Brady. Just another example at how laughable you are.

2012
Bequette – the fact that you are declaring a guy who was just a rookie a bust after 1 year is a joke and shows that you can’t be taken seriously.

32 busts to 17 players you listed that were serviceable or great

Vastly increasing your odds of a bust when you trade down for "value" and you do not usually end up with 2 good players as people here like to act. We usually end up with 1 good player for every 2 bad ones. Why not stick with the 1st round pick and have a higher chance of that 1 player being good? Especially with this team that has rebuilt, the strategy to trade down was a sound one from 09-2012 because we needed to rebuild and needed players. Not now when we have limited roster spots because of the massive influx of players the last few years via the draft.

Again all you are doing is making my point that when you trade down you make it harder to find impact given BB's track record. You are not trading down and getting double and triple the impact many on this board act like these trades bring.

You are such a joke. There aren’t 32 busts. There are only 20 and that is being generous to you. 2 of the supposed “busts” aren’t even eligible because they were 5th round picks. Beyond that, you claiming that Back-up QBs are “busts” for no reason doesn’t make it so. The fact that the Patriots were willing to go without a back-up behind Mallett says a lot about the trust they have in him. 32 minus the 12 that aren't busts or don't fit the 2nd to 4th round means that there are 20. And you add 10 to the 17 that have been acknowledged as success and you have 27success to 20 failures. That's better than 50%.

No one is “making your point that when you trade down you make it harder to find impact given BB’s track record”. On the contrary, it is being shown that your judgment on what is and is not a bust is extremely flawed and that you have almost no concept of how to build a football team successfully.

 

[DaBruinz]

Chung sucked. He was bad from the beginning, because he could never cover worth a damn. You defending that pick makes pretty much everything you'll ever say completely worthless.*


* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

Chung wasn't taken as a coverage safety. He was taken to be a Strong Safety. You not understanding that makes pretty much everything you'll ever say completely worthless.

 

[DaBruinz]

No. There's no need to. It's self explanatory.

Except that it isn't self-explanatory. There was nothing in your post that explained how you could make a summary judgment the way you did. You offered no facts to support yourself at all. I would think that as someone who claims to be a lawyer would understand that you need facts when making a judgement.

 

[DaBruinz]

You'll love this, then....

When you look at the way the draft fell, the Patriots could have drafted, with just one small trade up in round 3:


Dobson
Swearinger
Wheaton
Rutgers guy of their choice

and that's assuming that the redundant linebacker went off the board before the spot where they'd have been picking the Rutgers kid.

How is Collins redundant? One of the things this team was missing last year was that 3rd Rush DE. Someone who could come in and give either Jones or Ninkovich a break. Cunningham wasn't successful there. Trevor Scott and Justin Francis were mediocre. That's why Scott is gone. The Pats clearly feel that Collins is an upgrade over both and that he should push Bequette as well.

Collins also has the build to be an OLB in the 3-4. Something that BB wants to get back to. Plus Collins has the ability to drop back into coverage. Whether it is better than Hightower or Fletcher remains to be seen.

Also, though Collins included himself in saying the team gave up on the coaches, the Coaches said that Collins was one of the few players who showed up day in and day out at practice and on game day.

 

[DaBruinz]

Isn't it rather stupid to discard what value other teams have put on a prospect? We talk about BB being all about value and then drafting some guy nobody has heard of way before his perceived value makes absolutely no sense.

How can you know how other teams value a prospect? While 25 teams get their information from the 2 different agencies, there are also 6 other teams that have their own scouting department. Who says that the 25 teams that get their information from BLESTO or NATIONAL interpret the reports the same way. You are talking about 31 different ways of figuring out value.

Value is based on what the team is willing to spend for a particular prospect. Some times it is the same. Other times it's different. The only time you get a glimpse of what another team is looking at for value is when they call with a trade offer or you talk to them looking to trade down.

There are teams that take players off boards all the time for reasons we never hear about. Some may not interview well. Others might have a positive drug test. Others may have been arrogant. Others may have proven to be inept at film study despite spending long hours doing it. Others may prove to be excellent at film study, only needing to review things once or twice to fix issues.

There are so many factors that we fans don't get to see. We only get a glimpse of the top of the iceberg of information that teams have on players. And it's because of that, that I basically stopped doing mocks and taken a less active role in the draft board. There is just way too much information that teams have access to that none of the amateur draft sites have access to that it's not even funny. Yes, I'll point to where a player was generally rated by one site or another, but I hardly take it as gospel anymore.

 

[randomk1]

How can you know how other teams value a prospect? While 25 teams get their information from the 2 different agencies, there are also 6 other teams that have their own scouting department. Who says that the 25 teams that get their information from BLESTO or NATIONAL interpret the reports the same way. You are talking about 31 different ways of figuring out value.

Value is based on what the team is willing to spend for a particular prospect. Some times it is the same. Other times it's different. The only time you get a glimpse of what another team is looking at for value is when they call with a trade offer or you talk to them looking to trade down.

There are teams that take players off boards all the time for reasons we never hear about. Some may not interview well. Others might have a positive drug test. Others may have been arrogant. Others may have proven to be inept at film study despite spending long hours doing it. Others may prove to be excellent at film study, only needing to review things once or twice to fix issues.

There are so many factors that we fans don't get to see. We only get a glimpse of the top of the iceberg of information that teams have on players. And it's because of that, that I basically stopped doing mocks and taken a less active role in the draft board. There is just way too much information that teams have access to that none of the amateur draft sites have access to that it's not even funny. Yes, I'll point to where a player was generally rated by one site or another, but I hardly take it as gospel anymore.

Well that's their job to try and figure it out. Were they really expecting Duron Harmond to be gone later? I can understand that argument but i'm not sure i buy it. I'd rather they had taken one of the WRs available or stayed put and taken a Elam if they felt they needed a safety,sure enough the Ravens snag him up right after us. And where does Tavon fit in here? I'm ready to wait and see but that pick is kind of weird.

 

[ivanvamp]

We got extraordinarily lucky getting Brady. That's not due to any draft acumen on BB's part. Drafting players is an imperfect exercise, as the NFL draft over time proves. On NFLN today, Billich said the reason Aaron Rodgers dropped to 24 was because scouts believed Rodgers couldn't throw accurate passes outside the pocket. Scouts and teams get it wrong. All the time. But our draft history is not about missing talent. It's way more egregious than that.

This is specifically talking about drafting defensive backs. I think we're up to 21 at this point. Any other team that has drafted 21 defensive backs yet STILL need to trade for an oft injured CB from another team has serious issues in evaluating talent. You cannot point to Vollmer or Ahern or Ridley or ANY OTHER POSITION because that's not the question.

You do not get a steal by drafting a player at 48 when every other scouting report has him ranked against his peers as a late round/UFDA (aka Wilson.) If BB has some super secret formula for evaluating DBs - which clearly, he does NOT, else we would not keep drafting them every god damn year - but even if he did, it still makes exactly zero sense taking these DBs when we have.

The problem with these picks is the opportunity costs. Given the excessive amount of draft capital we've expanded for one position, and given what we COULD have had otherwise, it's not a leap to say had we drafted better we would have had at least one more SB ring.

So yes, we SUCK at this.

We won our Super Bowls on the back of a gritty defense. Clutch players making clutch plays. Those guys are gone, the NFL has changed.

All that remains is Brady. And despite the chest beating from the kool-aid crowd, we have clearly been eclipsed. We lost three games to the NFC West last year. If this team played in that conference, are we a SB contender?

Maybe so, but only because of Brady.

Well if you take away every team's best picks, their overall draft results are going to suffer. The article I cited demonstrated that the Pats' overall draft success is still among the best in the league even if you take out Tom Brady.

If we limit the discussion to DBs, I'd say it hasn't been their strongest suit - on that we agree. So what's the alternative? Stop drafting them? Or keep trying and hope you get it right at some point?

BTW, McCourty was a solid pick and it sure looks like Dennard is going to be a real player. So they haven't totally swung and missed.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

wow, dabruinz is all over the place.

 

[IllegalContact]

Umm.. The Pats usually carry 8 DBs into games. McCourty, Talib, Dennard, W. Wilson, and A. Wilson are the only locks. That leaves you with Ebner, Dowling, Cole, and Gregory as well as Harmon and Ryan now. Do you really think that Ebner and Cole were that great that they can't be beat out? Besides being torched by Boldin, Cole was one of the guys who blew containment on the long run back against the Ravens. The other 2 were Ebner and Koutivides.

I'm not anointing anyone. I'm just saying that it's clear the Pats are looking to upgrade their special teams coverage.

Arrington?

I don't think using 3rd rounders with the players still on the board for guys to challenge Ebner and Cole is sound strategy. One of them should have been another WR given who they would be challenging. Or Jessie Williams ..... Or Barrett jones .......

It's ok to question DB, love needn't be blind

I think it is too early in the draft to be filling the bottom of your roster. They have 3 7th rounders for that

 

[IllegalContact]

Chung wasn't taken as a coverage safety. He was taken to be a Strong Safety. You not understanding that makes pretty much everything you'll ever say completely worthless.

Without getting into the streams of urine, I would say that a player who makes it the duration of his rookie contract cannot be a bust.......that said, Chung was poor value and I feel the only reason he got the pt that he did was because of how bad the personnel decisions have been for the pats at DB. He should have been gone sooner.

 

[RobAllan]

How did I miss this gem earlier?

Let me get this correct. You're saying that if Harmon works out, no matter what he will always be considered a terrible pick because the Pats didn't draft some guy you have heard of before, the guy Mel Kiper thought they should have picked, or even your favorite binky instead? Seriously, there have been a lot of ridiculous comments made the past two nights, but this may take the cake.

I don't think there will be a player that I root for harder to make it than this kid. Not only would it make half the people on this board who complain about everything eat crow, but the kid seems to have a super character and will to win based on the interviews that have been posted so far.

Exactly what I'm saying- because the "pick" and the "player" are NOT the same thing. The "player" could have been taken with a later "pick" (or possibly obtained without using a "pick" at all.) So regardless of how he performs, the value of the "pick" was wasted.

As it happens, I'm rooting for him also. I'm rooting for ALL these guys, because I love this team and want them to be great.

That does not mean, however, that taking the player at that draft position was the right thing to do. I would think people could see the difference in this. It's not a gem or a nancy negative thing, it's just acknowledging the value in a draft pick. The player CURRENTLY does not have the same value the pick did. Nothing wrong with that...

 

[stcjones]

Could not agree more.....BB has a definite bond with Rutgers of course. Don't know if he is trying to help their program out by taking a couple of late 4ths-5ths in the 3rd round or what. Watching NFL Network coverage you could hear them practically flipping pages to the later round mocks to find these guys......I like the idea that if the BEST guy is sitting there at that moment that even remotely fills the need (Like WR for example)....Take him. These "projects" and "let me show you how much of a genius I am by picking these guys way early and make you really scratch your head".....are getting old. Look at all the "raw",project guys we have drafted over the years.....and how many of them have worked out?

BTW....almost forgot McCourty is from Rutgers....anyone last year?

I just went back and looked, the only guy in the last 5 years or so that worked out was Vollmer. I would much rather go with the Steelers/Ravens approach and just take the best guys available instead of getting cute. I don't mind the trade downs but you still need to take the best players.

 

[Leemo]

next pick to save the draft?

Personally I like all the picks except the safety who we probably could have got in 7th. Who for you saves the draft by being our next pick? For me only one of Patton, Rogers or lattimore

 

[WhiZa]

They lack CB depth, if Talib gets hurt like he has a history of doing its back to Arrington island on the outside and then you are completely screwed. Wilson is a part time player that might be toast. The defense is only as good as Talib's health is, if he is healthy they are a good defense agreed. If he gets hurt they are screwed and did nothing to address that problem.

Brady is going to be mentally tested this season due to his top 3 targets being frequently injured. Dobson better be ready to make an impact year 1, I like his potential but we need impact NOW not 2 years from now the window is almost shut.

They had a lot of cap space and decent draft picks. They signed a bunch of JAGs while retaining their own (not impressive when you have a **** load of cap space) and then traded back and literally drafted horrendous players in the 3rd round and a guy who literally quit on his team and showed minimal effort in the year that serves as his try out for the NFL.

Collins and Dobson may be great 1-2 years from now, but we needed impact now and did not get it. I'm sorry they are worse.

Any team that has injuries to the top players on their team will be screwed. The fact is even if Talib gets hurt we will just be at the same place we were last year so at least with Talib we are better than last year.

At WR are screwed, but at least we have good TEs. I am predicting the defense to carry us this year.

 

[stcjones]

Well that is the point.....ALL analysts said Harmon was a good pick....but WAY TOO EARLY....He was projected to go late 4th to 5th. BB I guess either wants to mind bleep everyone....or had wrong information that both guys from Rutgers were going to get snatched up early....especially the safety....he wasn't going anywhere near the 3rd round. So that is the point as you state it.....Pick is ok....just don't waste the VALUE here...We could have used the 3rd to get the BEST player of need on the board at that time...and still come back in the 4th and picked up the Rutgers secondary

Exactly what I'm saying- because the "pick" and the "player" are NOT the same thing. The "player" could have been taken with a later "pick" (or possibly obtained without using a "pick" at all.) So regardless of how he performs, the value of the "pick" was wasted.

As it happens, I'm rooting for him also. I'm rooting for ALL these guys, because I love this team and want them to be great.

That does not mean, however, that taking the player at that draft position was the right thing to do. I would think people could see the difference in this. It's not a gem or a nancy negative thing, it's just acknowledging the value in a draft pick. The player CURRENTLY does not have the same value the pick did. Nothing wrong with that...

 

[EwanSellars]

Could not agree more.....BB has a definite bond with Rutgers of course. Don't know if he is trying to help their program out by taking a couple of late 4ths-5ths in the 3rd round or what. Watching NFL Network coverage you could hear them practically flipping pages to the later round mocks to find these guys......I like the idea that if the BEST guy is sitting there at that moment that even remotely fills the need (Like WR for example)....Take him. These "projects" and "let me show you how much of a genius I am by picking these guys way early and make you really scratch your head".....are getting old. Look at all the "raw",project guys we have drafted over the years.....and how many of them have worked out?

BTW....almost forgot McCourty is from Rutgers....anyone last year?

justin francis was picked up as a udfa from rutgers

 

[TyronePoole]

*sigh* Well, the problem that "trading back frequently" isn't their approach. Their approach is trading for what they believe is the value of the pick at hand. They trade back if they believe that there are no players on the board that fit the value of the pick. However, if there is a player they like, they will move up to grab him IF they can find a trade partner who is willing to accept what they are offering. Again, it's about value.

You clearly don't understand or have never read how the Patriots actually rate players. They give them a Number and letter. They do that to ALL the players on the team as well as the players in the draft. When they draft, they are looking at players based on the grades the team has given them and whether or not they have the potential to be upgrades. How other teams rate the players means nothing to the Patriots. Why should it? It has no bearing on what the Patriots do.

This has been the Patriots modus operandi since 2001. It's given them 5 SB appearances in an 11 year span. 10 play-off appearances in a 12 year span. It's a system that BB believe works. And, considering that they've not had a losing season since 2000, I'd say it's a pretty good run they've been on.

This has nothing to do with what I posted, all you did was write some simple strawman nonsense. The fact that you somehow read my post and thought that it had to do with how the Pats rate players is weird and confusing. Maybe you should stop being so defensive and start trying to read and understand what I actually wrote. Saying "it's about value" when that's what I've written ad nauseum is irrelevant to my point.

And you are 100 % wrong about your first point. Trading back frequently absolutely is their philosophy in that they believe other teams normally place too much value on the first round which tends to lead to a lot of trading back.

If you don't want to bother to understand my point about trading back, not caring where other teams would take players and then taking a player that would likely fall really far then don't bother responding, another post reciting the pats accomplishments isn't instructive.

So, one more time, the original question wasn't "zomg how can the Patriots survive doing this?!?!" it was, if you trade your first for a 2nd a 3rd and a 4th, how can you then not care where players are likely to be selected? Why would you trade your 1st for a 3rd and then treat the 3rd as if it's a 6th? or did BB think Harmon would be snagged up quickly thereafter? I'm just looking for someone to reconcile this thought process.

 

[Jimke]

Re: next pick to save the draft?

Personally I like all the picks except the safety who we probably could have got in 7th. Who for you saves the draft by being our next pick? For me only one of Patton, Rogers or lattimore

Yes! The next pick could save the draft. There are players out there
as good as our first three picks and a hell of a lot better than Harmon.
Add Jesse Williams and Barrett Jones to your list.

Instead, the Patriots will trade out of the pick to get a 5th and 7th round pick and draft two more Rutger's players.

 

[tonyto3690]

Really we hoPe we snag quinton.

Guy is a mix between Deion and Lloyd. Good route runner, decent enough deep speed, and just knows how to get open.