A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

[DarrylS]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Maybe a better question is why is BB so good at developing a team???

The draft is a crap shoot.. and there are as many hits as misses in the league.

Something I came up with to illustrate how much so.. have not updated '12 draft info..

Have always contended that the draft is a crap shoot... people look to the Steelers as some hallmark we should emulate.. here is their draft history in the second round for the past 6 years..

2011.. Marcus Gilbert..OT currently starts for the Steelers
2010.. Jason Worilds.. playing ok, but seems to be a work in progress
2009.. no second round pick
2008.. Limus Sweed... has been waived
2007.. Lamar Woodley.. great pick
2006.. no second round pick

Miami's vaunted 2nd round picks..

2011...Daniel Thomas RB.. looks like a good pick
2010..Koa Missa. LB.. work in progress
2009..Pat White. QB... not in the game
2008..Phillip Merling.. not in the game
Chad Henne..
2007.. John Beck. QB...traded to the Redskins
Samson Satele.. C.. good pick
2006..no pick

The Jets absolutely wonderful 2nd round picks..

2011... no second round pick
2010.. Vladimir DuCasse
2009.. Shonn Greene
2008 .. no second round pick
2007.. David Harris
2006.. Kellen Clemens
2005... Mike Nugent
Justin Miller..


The Green Bay Packers recent 2ndround picks..

2011.. Randall Cobb
2010.. Mike Neal.. oft injuried
2009.. no second round pick
2008..Brian Brohm.. no longer in the NFL
Patrick lee.. marginal player
2007..Brandon Jackson.. marginal player now with the Browns.
2006...Darren Colledge..starting O lineman now with the Cardinals
Greg Jennings
2005..Nick Collins.. a pro bowler on IR
Terrence Murphy retired from the NFL..

You can do this will all of the teams in the AFC and results may be comparable. People need to view this longitudinally.. there are as many hits in the draft as misses

 

[Sciz]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

So you are saying that taking take Tate was better then taking Wallace? How did I re-write history here?

Wallace was a speedster with very questionable route running skills. He was far from the sure thing that you act like he was.

 

[Helmet2Helmet]

Re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB and WR picks the last 10 years.

I believe that lack of good assistant coaches is also a factor in the
failure of WRs and DBs to succeed. Since the Charlie Weis/Romeo
Crennel area ended, the quality of assistant coaching talent has
become worse each year.

Our current WR and DB coaches do not have impressive college coaching resumes.
How can you expect them to develop young talent? Eric Mangini is the Patriots' Benedict Arrnold but he was able to convert Eugene Wilson
from cornerback to passable safety in a couple of weeks.

People hate Mangini but there is no denying some of the defensive talent he brought to the Jets and Browns.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Why do people keep bringing up Mike Wallace as a shining example of how we whiff on the draft?

First off, a ton of teams missed on him. In fact, every team missed him twice. Including Pittsburgh.

Pittsburgh took Kraig Urbik 5 picks before they drafted Wallace. During that span, two WRs went off the board. If Pittsburgh REALLY knew what they had, do you think they would have let that happen?

Pittsburgh got lucky, just like we did when we wasted a 6th-round pick on our 4th-string QB in 2000. Luck is part of the draft. But don't bring up every long shot as absolute evidence of anything. You can continue in your role as president of the Felger Fan Club without continuing to re-circulate the same 5 or 6 "facts" about why the FO is terrible.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

I think it is pretty obvious that BB has an abysmal record drafting WRs and DBs...

No, it's not.

 

[jbb9s]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

i can't wait to see what happens on this board if BB picks a 2nd round 5-10 corner from some crappy big east school that Mel Kiper doesn't even have in the top 100. it seems like there is a lot of pent up frustration but most of us bite our tongue since in BB we trust.

 

[TriplecHamp]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Can't believe people are still banking on Dowling. Even when he played he was terrible. Somehow him and the secondary being torched for 400+ yards to Chad Henne inspired optimism for the guy.

lol, I don't think so tim.

 

[DarrylS]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

i can't wait to see what happens on this board if BB picks a 2nd round 5-10 corner from some crappy big east school that Mel Kiper doesn't even have in the top 100. it seems like there is a lot of pent up frustration but most of us bite our tongue since in BB we trust.

I have trusted BB since he got here, and no reason to deviate now.. the draft is a crap shoot and in the past three years this team has done remarkably well.

Many folks lack perspective or the "long view"....

 

[Snake Eyes]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

You propose we draft them high and then don't sign them?

If you look back at the past several drafts you'll notice that there was good talent that was available past the first round, after the first they're not getting that much.

 

[skinnydog]

Why is BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Strange as it may seem, I think BB became enamorred with combine numbers for a time. There was a time where he seemed to draft CBs based on their 3 cone numbers from the combine. He ended up with guys like Hobbs, Wheatly, Butler etc. guys that were exceptionally quick, but also small and ultimately not that good.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Why do people keep bringing up Mike Wallace as a shining example of how we whiff on the draft?

Because it was. Picking Tate one pick before Wallace was taken is the definitive, canonical,stupendously-bad, atrocious pick. Wallace was exactly the type of WR they needed yet they whiffed.

You could make a strong case that if Wallace was drafted then the Patriots would have won the Super Bowl last year or this year; it is really hard to win the Big One without a deep threat. For the last couple of years there has been a screaming need for guy who will take the top off the defense, and the frustrating thing is that they could have had that guy instead of Tate.

 

[chevss454]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

BB is frequently accused of being a bad evaluator or WR talent but I don't buy that premise.

First, BB has only drafted 8 WRs with the Pats. Here are their 1st-year contributions:

2nd (2002) - BRANCH - 43/489, 2 TDs
2nd (2003) - JOHNSON - 16/209, 2 TDs
2nd (2006) - JACKSON - 13/152, 3 TDs

3rd (2009) - TATE - 24/432, 3TDs
3rd (2010) - PRICE - 3/41, 0

5th (2004) - PK SAM - 0-0-0 (he was really only a returner)

7th (2009) - EDELMAN - 37/359, 1 TD
7th (2002) - GIVENS - 9/92, 1 TD

No 1st rounders and 3 of 8 chosen after the 4th round. Of these 8, Branch, Edelman and Givens turned out pretty well. Given the rounds BB chose to use for drafting a WR, 3 of 8 actually seems pretty good to me.

So, maybe the right question to ask would be "why has BB valued WR talent so low?".

I don't know that answer but I can tell you I'm hoping he values WR higher for this draft.

 

[DaBruinz]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

BB is frequently accused of being a bad evaluator or WR talent but I don't buy that premise.

First, BB has only drafted 8 WRs with the Pats. Here are their 1st-year contributions:

2nd (2002) - BRANCH - 43/489, 2 TDs
2nd (2003) - JOHNSON - 16/209, 2 TDs
2nd (2006) - JACKSON - 13/152, 3 TDs

3rd (2009) - TATE - 24/432, 3TDs
3rd (2010) - PRICE - 3/41, 0

5th (2004) - PK SAM - 0-0-0 (he was really only a returner)

7th (2009) - EDELMAN - 37/359, 1 TD
7th (2002) - GIVENS - 9/92, 1 TD

No 1st rounders and 3 of 8 chosen after the 4th round. Of these 8, Branch, Edelman and Givens turned out pretty well. Given the rounds BB chose to use for drafting a WR, 3 of 8 actually seems pretty good to me.

So, maybe the right question to ask would be "why has BB valued WR talent so low?".

I don't know that answer but I can tell you I'm hoping he values WR higher for this draft.

Only one slight correction. PK Sam wasn't drafted as a returner. He was drafted as a WR, but the knock on him was 1st round talent, marginal HS brain and attitude. He was one of those low risk/ high reward potential picks that BB likes to make later in the draft.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

I wonder if he realizes how bad he has been at drafting WRs and CBs? If so then why hasn't he improved?

I really, really hope that he can address these positions with free agents and use his draft picks for positions he is strong on.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

I wonder if he realizes how bad he has been at drafting WRs and CBs? If so then why hasn't he improved?

I really, really hope that he can address these positions with free agents and use his draft picks for positions he is strong on.

Why do you start the same threads over and over?

 

[Steve102]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Why do you start the same threads over and over?

Thank you very much for that. I was thinking that when I read the OP noting that no one has discussed why. Seems to me it's discussed ad nauseam.

 

[DaBruinz]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

FredFromDartmouth - I have you on ignore because you waste everyone's time with silliness like this thread.

Here is how I break them down and it is my subjective list though I have tried to be as objective as possible: (round picked)
Hits: Branch(2), Givens (7), Edelman (7)
Misses: Jackson (2), Sam (5), Price (3)
Provided some value: Johnson (2), Tate (3)

Jury is still out on: Ebert (7)

As for DB, I think it's safe to say the following:
Hits: Samuel (4), McCourty (1), Sanders (4), Hobbs (3), Slater (7), Meriweather (1)
Misses: Reid (3), Scott (4), Butler (2), Wheatley (2), Williams (3), Akbar (5), Morton (7), Andrews (7)
Provided some return: Wilhite (4), E. Wilson (2), Myers (6), Harris (6), Richardson (6), Chung (2),

Jury still out on: Dowling (2), Dennard (7), T. Wilson (2), Ebner (7), M. Williams (7)

When I look at WR and see that 3 of 9 are solid hits, another 2 have had contributions, I have to say that's around the norm for the league if not better. Especially considering that none of them were 1st round picks and even the 2nd rounders were Middle or below.

The same can be said for the DBs. You've got 5 who were multi-year starters and 1 who has been one of the best special teams players in the league. You have another 6 who have provided some return, maybe not living up to our expectations, but still having produced on the team or been prominent special teams players.. 12 out of 20 who you can put + or better grades on is pretty good. And another 5 who could go either way.

 

[DaBruinz]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Why do you start the same threads over and over?

Because FredfromDartmouth is the definition of crazy. Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result. Fred figures that if he starts the same thread over and over again, the people who know better will just get tired of rebutting him with facts and that, at some point, he'll only get people replying who agree with him..

 

[convertedpatsfan]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Because it was. Picking Tate one pick before Wallace was taken is the definitive, canonical,stupendously-bad, atrocious pick. Wallace was exactly the type of WR they needed yet they whiffed.

You could make a strong case that if Wallace was drafted then the Patriots would have won the Super Bowl last year or this year; it is really hard to win the Big One without a deep threat. For the last couple of years there has been a screaming need for guy who will take the top off the defense, and the frustrating thing is that they could have had that guy instead of Tate.

If that's the case, then what do you say about Pittsburgh taking Kraig Urbik before Wallace? They took Ziggy Hood before him too.

Every team missed on Wallace. Multiple times.

 

[blackglass3]

re: A "Reasonable" Draft evaluation on Pats DB or why BB so bad at drafting WRs andd CBs?

Fred needs to realize his "Drafting in hindsight" threads aren't realistic. For every bad pick there is usually a good pick. Wilhite and Wheatley didn't work, Samuel and Hobbs did. Johnson and Jackson showed promise but ultimately flamed out, Branch was a Super Bowl MVP and David Givens was pretty great when he played for us (jury is still out on Edelman but he looks a whole lot closer to Givens than Jackson or Tate).

If the Packers knew what Greg Jennings would bring to the table would they have waited until the second round? If the Steelers knew how good Wallace would look would they have waited until the 3rd? No, of course not. The draft is a freaking crapshoot. I will gladly take the guy who is hitting at 50% than some of these other mouth breathers that stop paying attention to their teams needs after the second round and draft guys based on God Knows What.

Oh, and before Brandon Tate tore his knee up he was The Man at NC and Hakeem Nicks was the afterthough. That's what our FO was hoping for. It didn't work, but at least they had the guts to go for it.