The Playoff Problem on Offense: Not Talent

[Mack Herron]

Bedard singled out Lloyd and Hernandez as needing to improve for playoffs. Has been a contentious debate here.

Patriots need to work on offense during bye week - Patriots - Boston.com

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If the Pats want to right the SS Lombardi cruise ship, they need to run the damn ball.

Every SB and playoff game they've lost was lost because they went pass-happy.

The loss to the Ratbirds was b/c of poor OL play and sloppy D in the first quarter that put the Patriots in a 21-0 hole in the first quarter.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Bedard singled out Lloyd and Hernandez as needing to improve for playoffs. Has been a contentious debate here.

Patriots need to work on offense during bye week - Patriots - Boston.com

Haven't read the article yet but I think he needs a reality check.

Lloyd has been battling a knee injury these last couple of games. He was great vs SF so he can get it done. Keep in mind with Gronk in there he is the 4th option in the offense.

With AH, not sure there. I think Gronk being out has allowed teams to shade over to his side and because of that hes been cutting his routes off short. Seemed like that happend a lot vs JAX. He may still be dealing with the ankle.

What this offense needs in the playoffs is pass protection, run blocking and a 100% locked n loaded Gronk. With Gronk 100%, he helps the run blocking, pass blocking and opens things up for everyone.

 

[BradyManny]

You have to take each game case by case. It's all about sample size.

Brady and Moss were max two inches from completing an 80 yard TD bomb to win the game in SB42 - what do his numbers look like then? If Brady and Wes hook up in SB46, and you tack on those 30 yards and take out the final drive of drops and hail mary tosses, what are the final offensive numbers?

All it takes is one play to make a good day look bad or a bad day look good. The sample size of one NFL game is ultimately small.

Case by case, we just see that the execution was not good enough in these games, though SB46 might be the exception as I thought they played well enough to win in limited chances that day.

I hate to say it, but the offensive execution of late has been as shaky as it's been all year. Bedard has it right. He was on EEI this morning and said the passing offense isn't scary teams the way it normally would. He said Lloyd & Brady not being completely on the same page has left this team with the same deficiency that has haunted it for several years now.

That said, I think Lloyd & Brady overall have worked pretty well together, and they'll probably just have to bag some of the routes/plays that the two can't seem to hit. That still leaves them with a lot of stuff they couldn't do last year.

Add a healthy Gronk to that, and assume Hernandez improves his quality of play, and you are back to the same frightening offense.

Let's be grateful we don't have to face Cincy in our first game, who - to me - has the defense that would give a great passing offense problems. Baltimore could pose some issues as they always do, and Houston - while having a great defense on paper - did not seem to slow our guys down. Indy's defense is porous and we would chew them up. We're lucky with the draw.

I think the two weeks off will help them finetune the execution and get it where it needs to be.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think the two weeks off will help them finetune the execution and get it where it needs to be.

I think that this team needed the bye in the worst way. Health, rest, fine-tuning, etc. Lot of banged-up guys on this team.

One thing that could also be surfacing...Brady could be getting a bit fatigued. 35 years old, 637 throws, hurry-up offense all season, new daughter. Maybe it's me but it seems that hes short-armed more throws than usual this 2nd 1/2 of the season. The one to Gronk vs MIA when he was split-out wide is an example. The guy may need a break both physically and mentally.

 

[Steve102]

Line health, with an ability to run the ball, takes the pressure of TB12 to be super-human for 50 throws. Give me balance in the post season.

As far a Bedard's critique of the offense's play vs. Miami, I'd wager the game plan was put together to be very vanilla and put nothing new on film with an eye on the post-season.

 

[mayoclinic]

As far a Bedard's critique of the offense's play vs. Miami, I'd wager the game plan was put together to be very vanilla and put nothing new on film with an eye on the post-season.

Mike Lombardi called it playing "left handed", and predicted that would be the case against the Fish. And the Pats put up 28 points (could easily have been 35 or more), 443 yards, 167 yards rushing and 28 1st rounds playing "left handed".

 

[RobertWeathers]

Mike Lombardi called it playing "left handed", and predicted that would be the case against the Fish. And the Pats put up 28 points (could easily have been 35 or more), 443 yards, 167 yards rushing and 28 1st rounds playing "left handed".

Anything Lombardi says is a jewel. I have no doubt BB feeds him good info trusting that he'll use it wisely, but help a friend do his job and I also would bot be suprised if his son (on the Pats staff as well) share a few nuggets over a beer between father and son.

 

[BradyManny]

Bedard singled out Lloyd and Hernandez as needing to improve for playoffs. Has been a contentious debate here.

Patriots need to work on offense during bye week - Patriots - Boston.com

Agree completely with Bedard.

It seems insane saying it, but in some ways, I am more worried about the offensive execution than defensive execution in the playoffs.

Let me just acknowledge at this point I realize this offense is one of the highest scoring of all time (3rd all time, I believe) and did so without its full cast of weaponry all year, and will largely and finally have that full cast assembled (minus its jack of all trades Edelman).

I get that.

But the execution has been sloppy. What I like about Bedard is he separates production and execution, because he realizes that one is not always a guarantee of the other. We were productive against Miami without executing to the level we need.

It's the offense that needs to execute at its highest level in order for us to win a championship. We almost won a championship with a porous defense that couldn't get off the field last year. This defense is vastly improved, and other than Manning, isn't going to be tested any harder than last year until if/when they meet an NFC opponent in February.

 

[Deus Irae]

The problem with the offense in 2007 was clearly talent, in the sense of Brady, Neal and the TEs being injured.

The problem with the offense in 2009 was clearly talent, with a limited offense (led by a recovering Brady) losing Welker on the last game of the season.

2010 wasn't about talent, it was about the Talent not making the plays (Brady pick on the screen, Crumpler dropping TD pass)

2011 is the one that leaves a question mark. There's no question that not having Gronk healthy hurt the Patriots. The question is whether his being healthy would have led to a win, given the results of the regular season game.

 

[aluminum seats]

Agree completely with Bedard.

It seems insane saying it, but in some ways, I am more worried about the offensive execution than defensive execution in the playoffs.

Let me just acknowledge at this point I realize this offense is one of the highest scoring of all time (3rd all time, I believe) and did so without its full cast of weaponry all year, and will largely and finally have that full cast assembled (minus its jack of all trades Edelman).

I get that.

But the execution has been sloppy. What I like about Bedard is he separates production and execution, because he realizes that one is not always a guarantee of the other. We were productive against Miami without executing to the level we need.

It's the offense that needs to execute at its highest level in order for us to win a championship. We almost won a championship with a porous defense that couldn't get off the field last year. This defense is vastly improved, and other than Manning, isn't going to be tested any harder than last year until if/when they meet an NFC opponent in February.

I largely agree w/most of what Bedard says, but I think he buries the lead. The offensive line playing at a "5/5" level will be FAR more significant in the playoffs than any minor imperfections between Lloyd & Brady.

In fact, Lloyd seems to be a favorite target of criticism for Bedard--and considering Lloyd's priority level on the Pats' offense, I don't really understand why.

 

[mayoclinic]

Agree completely with Bedard.

It seems insane saying it, but in some ways, I am more worried about the offensive execution than defensive execution in the playoffs.

Let me just acknowledge at this point I realize this offense is one of the highest scoring of all time (3rd all time, I believe) and did so without its full cast of weaponry all year, and will largely and finally have that full cast assembled (minus its jack of all trades Edelman).

I get that.

But the execution has been sloppy. What I like about Bedard is he separates production and execution, because he realizes that one is not always a guarantee of the other. We were productive against Miami without executing to the level we need.

It's the offense that needs to execute at its highest level in order for us to win a championship. We almost won a championship with a porous defense that couldn't get off the field last year. This defense is vastly improved, and other than Manning, isn't going to be tested any harder than last year until if/when they meet an NFC opponent in February.

I think the distinction between production and execution is a very good one, and I give Bedard credit for making that separation. With that in mind, no offense is perfect in its execution. Points get left on the board. If the Pats executed flawlessly they'd probably be averaging 50 PPG and would have put up 800 points this season. It's not going to happen. The team led the NFL in 3rd down conversions and in red zone TD %, 2 very important measures of efficiency and execution, so while they may not execute ideally, they are probably still ahead of the rest of the league.

Do they need to work on execution? Probably. But don't expect perfection. It's not realistic.

 

[BradyManny]

Do they need to work on execution? Probably. But don't expect perfection. It's not realistic.

Fair point. And I agree with Aluminum Seats that Lloyd and Brady's chemistry is not our top priority. I also think that working out some kinks was clearly a point of emphasis the last two weeks, and that it will matter a lot less how sharp Lloyd's sideline routes are when Gronk is streaking down the seam for an open TD.

However, at some point, Lloyd will become important. A lack of outside threat undid us when Gronk was hobbled in SB46. On the plus side, Brady & Lloyd have connected on a number of impossible-to-defend back shoulder type throws and play action connections over the deep middle. Those are things that they simply couldn't do with Ocho or Branch last season.

That said, we definitely need better execution from Hernandez if we want to win the title. He was better this weekend, but overall he's been sloppy. The drops are disconcerting. He was a beast last year in the postseason, and we will need him back nearing a top level to beat some of the tough D's we'll inevitably face.

 

[brdmaverick]

I'll echo some of the same sentiments others have stated.....


Playoff games are subject to less points because penalties are not called as much (making it harder for receivers to get open) and most games are played in worse weather conditions.

 

[Henroc]

its funny that this thread was made because i thought this all the while because in the reg season, the pats kill it. They put up points and look unstoppable. In the playoffs, ehhh. They just look mediocre. They look like a completely different team. I mean sure you could say that the playoffs is its own monster and that teams bring their best but its the pats. Dont you think BB would make sure that they bring their best in the playoffs also. A win is a win. Thats all that matters. All im saying is that they just look like a different team from the reg season than they do in the playoffs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The problem with the offense in 2007 was clearly talent, in the sense of Brady, Neal and the TEs being injured.

The problem with the offense in 2009 was clearly talent, with a limited offense (led by a recovering Brady) losing Welker on the last game of the season.

2010 wasn't about talent, it was about the Talent not making the plays (Brady pick on the screen, Crumpler dropping TD pass)

2011 is the one that leaves a question mark. There's no question that not having Gronk healthy hurt the Patriots. The question is whether his being healthy would have led to a win, given the results of the regular season game.

2011 was no different than 2010. WW dropping the pass is the same as Crump dropping his, if not much, much worse.

 

[Deus Irae]

2011 was no different than 2010. WW dropping the pass is the same as Crump dropping his, if not much, much worse.

Gronk was hurt in 2011, so it is different.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Gronk was hurt in 2011, so it is different.

Ok so its a question mark AND talent not performing- just like Brady and Crump in 2010.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ok so its a question mark AND talent not performing- just like Brady and Crump in 2010.

2010 was on the play, not the talent. The Patriots had the Jets on the ropes, and reeling defensively. Then, Brady throws the pick on a basic screen. That's followed up with the Crumpler drop, and the Jets were able to get up 7-3. Then, Chung tried the 4th down fake on the Patriots 38, failed and gave the Jets the ball on the Patriots 37. The Jets converted that, and the same team who'd been thumped 45-3 earlier in the year, was able to weather the early storm, gain confidence, and keep the Patriots offense relatively contained the rest of the way.

But, when you look at 2010, you see

Brady pick
Crumpler Drop
Chung failure

and that's an enormous impact on the ballgame right there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

2010 was on the play, not the talent. The Patriots had the Jets on the ropes, and reeling defensively. Then, Brady throws the pick on a basic screen. That's followed up with the Crumpler drop, and the Jets were able to get up 7-3. Then, Chung tried the 4th down fake on the Patriots 38, failed and gave the Jets the ball on the Patriots 37. The Jets converted that, and the same team who'd been thumped 45-3 earlier in the year, was able to weather the early storm, gain confidence, and keep the Patriots offense relatively contained the rest of the way.

But, when you look at 2010, you see

Brady pick
Crumpler Drop
Chung failure

and that's an enormous impact on the ballgame right there.

I don't disagree with you. Just saying that the WW drop is falls into the catagory of talent not making plays in 2011.