Why are the PATS and BB so hesitant to get a deep threat?

[Deus Irae]

they couldn't win a superbowl with randy moss, but they've won plenty of games without him.

it's not that I don't want some of these star receivers, I'm sure every team does, but I don't think we sink or swim on signing colston, or whoever.
moss was a great deal for us because he didn't cost much in trade or contract --- a lot of the names people throw out are not similar situations.

just ask the jets if we should sign a high profile fa wr for big money.

you just don't know if these fa receivers would be the same player in the pats offense, and it's a lot of money to gamble on a colston, v jax, or whoever, whereas welker has already proven he's on the same page as brady.

How many Super Bowls have they won without Moss since 2005?

 

[Ring 6]

The only one we have ever had was Moss in 2007 and look what it did to Brady? He had a record year and we almost attained perfection. But that was a Moss we got for a 4th rounder and past his prime. Why can't the PATS ever get a legitimate WR/deep threat early in the draft or via trade? Brady would still be able to do wonders like in 2007 with a big time WR who can make plays to make it easy for the poor guy. We go back to get a washed up Branch and some amazing Tight Ends but that doesn't cut it. We need play maker WRs.

Remember when the Steelers won a few years back and Ben made that throw to Santonio and his unbelievable catch! We need someone like that. I do hope that BB understands this and gets a legit WR and not someone who is either washed up or a very late draft pick that could go either way.

TB is getting up there and we need a "NOW" mentality for the next few years to enable TB and the PATS to get atleast one if not more rings because after TB retires - not sure what's in store for us.....

Yeah, we need to abandon what has been consistently one of the couple of best offenses in the NFL to get more guys like Santonio Holmes
I swear you can't make this shlt up.

 

[Ring 6]

You are happy with Deion Branch and Julian Edelman as outside receivers? That's not a priority to you?

I think his point is that when we just threw for the 2nd most yards in NFL history there are probably bigger issues to deal with.

 

[Ring 6]

We can debate priority all day, it all depends on your perspective.

We're still not sure what alignment BB wants to install long term. The system change's needs based on the players ability in each alignment. The back-end is important but what is McCourty? Dowling was a high pick and actually won the starting job over Bodden in camp, so we should assume he'll be healthy. Arrington would be a good nickel.

When you think about our offense, it was completely one dimensional. Passing game dominant with throws 1-15 yards inside the numbers. It was highly effective because we have very good inside personnel, but when we were challenged by good defenses we stalled early and often.

Not a 'deep threat', but a 'complete' receiver is just as important to the entire team's production as any one position on defense.

We didn't lose because of good defenses, we lost (3 of the 4) because the defense allowed long time consuming drives that kept the offense off the field. When the offense is among the highest scoring in the league, and you lose when they score close to their average points per drive, the issue was the lack of drives, not the capability of the offense.

Asking for a different style of offense isn't ensuring improvement, just change. The offense has been good, change for change sake is not prudent.

Yes, if we had better players at WR we'd have a better offense. You can use that argument for any position.

Remember, the offense got better when Moss was jettisoned.

 

[Ring 6]

Steelers know how to draft and develop RB, WR and LB's, period.

Swann, Stallworth, Santonio, Charles Johnson, Yancy Thigpen, Louis Lipps, Plax, Hines Ward, now Wallace, Antonio Brown. They've had some duds, but for the most part they've done good job on skill positions

Pats suck at drafting and developing WR, that's all. Only WR Patriots drafted and really developed was Stanley Morgan....after him the start of death spiral with Irving Fryar, and 30 years later, same story. Some mild success inbetween, 1 year of Terry Glenn, couple years of Branch, but no breakaway threat.

You went back 40 years and named 10 guys, some of whom werent even good.

 

[borg]

A WR that draws safety attention. A WR tall enough to catch sideline lasers instead of Brady having to drop the ball in over the CB . A WR that can win jump balls. A WR that can win the LOS battles.
A WR that excels in all of the above is a rare talent. All I know is that the Megatron gets triple coveredand the Lions slooooow TE was a force this year. The Patriots tripled teamed Vincent Jackson all game to no avail....it was a Man vs boys display.
Branch was a non factor in many games...Zero catches in 4 games (DNP in 1 game I believe). Even with very little attention by Ds, he was too often invisible. Find a guy that safeties have to pay attention to and this offense will be dynamically more dynamic. One beast please

 

[Ring 6]

I'm talking about outside receivers. I think if you take away Brown and Welker from the equation the 2006 group is probably better, although you're splitting butthairs.

Its kind of a cirular argument to say the receivers suck because you eliminate 3 guys who caught 291 passes for 3800 yards and 33 TDs becaue you want to pretend those 3 don't count.

And the 4th guy caught 51 for 700 and 5.

Can you find a 4th guy who came close to those numbers behind 3 that were close to our top 3?

Its silly that we are arguing we need someone to stretch the field because defenses are taking away our other recievers who caught 291 passes for 3800 yards and 33 TDs.

To put it in perspective that is more receiving yards and TDs between those 3 than the entire team had on any of our SB winners. Somehow, I think we have other priorities.

And btw how does Edelman even enter the discussion? He is a special teamer who probably had less than 100 snaps on offense all year.

 

[Ring 6]

We have one legit WR and it happens to be a slot receiver. It's a HUGE hole/weakness on the team. Our passing game is TE/Welker... We need legit targets outside the numbers. We've all seen what happens when Brady starts locking in on someone and it doesn't help when the entire defense is trying to defend that same area...

I know. Who can sleep at night with an offense that had us one catch away from 16-3 and a SB Championship with a terrible defense.

Maybe if we had a deep threat outside it could have kept Brady from locking in and getting the entire defense in one area to hold those 3 to almost no production with 291 catches for 3800 yards and 33 TDs.

I bet with a real outside receiver to open it up for them they would have gained 6000 yards and had 100 TDs.

I think we need to get Lloyd/Colston and then get another starting-caliber wideout through the draft/FA, preferably one with some size and at least a little speed. Is it really too much to ask to have athletic and sizeable wideouts? I'll never understand why we got rid of Gaffney, he's more than worth $2.4 million.

Change for change sake is wise when you are bad, not so wise when you are good. Theoffensive system isn't broken, why don't we fix things that are first?

 

[Ring 6]

When people think deep threat, they think of some random receiver who runs a 4.3. They don't realize that to get on the field at all, they also have to be able to run routes. Finding someone fast who can also run the routes is the problem.

Its funny because when Moss was here everyone cried that Brady was forcing the ball deep.

We change the offense from having a guy run deep to take coverage with him on every play to one that incorporates other routes to open up the field, and the offense improves markedly.

Result: Everyone thinks that if we have a deep threat run deep every play it will make the offense better because clearly what the outside WRs are doing killed Welker, Gronk and Hernandez because all they could do it catch 291-3800-33

 

[Satchboogie3]

^I think you're also missing the fact that Branch is another year older and probably doesn't have much left in the tank. He really didn't do anything the entire 2nd half of the season. You can't plan to get anything out of Ocho, Edellman is a slot reciever, and where's the rest?

If nothing else, I'm looking at Branch getting replaced. I really don't want to go into the season relying on him as the #2 receiver/#1 outside receiver. He's just too damned old to rely on.

 

[Ring 6]

How many Super Bowls have they won without Moss since 2005?

The same number they won with him.

They also were 40-12 in the regular season and 2-2 in the postseason (winning a post season game in only one of his years with the team) with him, and 36-8 in the regular season and 3-3 in the postseason without him.

Hard to argue this team was better with Moss than without him since 2005.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Its funny because when Moss was here everyone cried that Brady was forcing the ball deep.
We change the offense from having a guy run deep to take coverage with him on every play to one that incorporates other routes to open up the field, and the offense improves markedly.
Result: Everyone thinks that if we have a deep threat run deep every play it will make the offense better because clearly what the outside WRs are doing killed Welker, Gronk and Hernandez because all they could do it catch 291-3800-33

People complained that, at the end of the '07 season, Brady was forcing the ball to Moss to get the TD record. The only other time people were complaining was late in '09, and '10 when Moss wasn't getting the separation nor jumping/fighting for the ball and Brady kept going to him.

I honestly feel like '09/'10, Brady made the mistake of forcing the ball to Moss against tough defenses (Jets, Ravens) when they were game planning against him and more or less gave Brady the middle of the field. Now you see just the opposite, teams are jamming the middle because there aren't any deepthreats (guys to beat man outside). I feel like Brady has been trying to force the ball downfield to keep the defense honest, but it just doesn't work now because he's got no one to throw to.

Get someone to keep the defense honest and it opens things up again. It would be a HUGE help against tough pass defenses. Just because the O-line disintegrated in SB42 and Brady made mistakes in other games (forcing to Moss rather than taking the middle/short, forcing the ball deep to keep the defense honest without anyone downfield to actually make plays) that doesn't that a deepthreat doesn't help, nor does Brady's success this regular season.

Also, the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" arguments are BULLSHT. Belichick is ALWAYS looking to improve EVERY facet of his team. So why wouldn't you look to improve a clear weakness? Seriously people... They have the cap space and the FA are going to be there, what the hell is the issue?

 

[Ring 6]

^I think you're also missing the fact that Branch is another year older and probably doesn't have much left in the tank. He really didn't do anything the entire 2nd half of the season. You can't plan to get anything out of Ocho, Edellman is a slot reciever, and where's the rest?

If nothing else, I'm looking at Branch getting replaced. I really don't want to go into the season relying on him as the #2 receiver/#1 outside receiver. He's just too damned old to rely on.

Sure we need a WR and Branch is closer to the end of his career than the middle.

I'm just saying its silly to be arguing about how our offense was limited because the inside guys were hindered by who was outside, because they were the most productive slot and TEs in the history of the NFL.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

People complained that, at the end of the '07 season, Brady was forcing the ball to Moss to get the TD record. The only other time people were complaining was late in '09, and '10 when Moss wasn't getting the separation nor jumping/fighting for the ball and Brady kept going to him.

I honestly feel like '09/'10, Brady made the mistake of forcing the ball to Moss against tough defenses (Jets, Ravens) when they were game planning against him and more or less gave Brady the middle of the field. Now you see just the opposite, teams are jamming the middle because there aren't any deepthreats (guys to beat man outside). I feel like Brady has been trying to force the ball downfield to keep the defense honest, but it just doesn't work now because he's got no one to throw to.

Get someone to keep the defense honest and it opens things up again. It would be a HUGE help against tough pass defenses. Just because the O-line disintegrated in SB42 and Brady made mistakes in other games (forcing to Moss rather than taking the middle/short, forcing the ball deep to keep the defense honest without anyone downfield to actually make plays) that doesn't that a deepthreat doesn't help, nor does Brady's success this regular season.

Also, the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" arguments are BULLSHT. Belichick is ALWAYS looking to improve EVERY facet of his team. So why wouldn't you look to improve a clear weakness? Seriously people... They have the cap space and the FA are going to be there, what the hell is the issue?

Im sure they'll add a reciever or two but the defense is young and being rebuilt. Thats where our needs are. How would we look if we have our current offense with a 2004 D?

 

[Ring 6]

People complained that, at the end of the '07 season, Brady was forcing the ball to Moss to get the TD record. The only other time people were complaining was late in '09, and '10 when Moss wasn't getting the separation nor jumping/fighting for the ball and Brady kept going to him.

Wrong. People complained every time we lost. Brady to Moss tore up the league. When they didnt all of a sudden Brady ois forcing the ball.

The Patriots offense tore up the league last year and this year. When they lose 2 playoff games with good but unspectacular passing games that must be the new thing to complain about.

When this team loses, its fans now whine. Thier typical MO is that the thing that we won with must now be why we lost.

I honestly feel like '09/'10, Brady made the mistake of forcing the ball to Moss against tough defenses (Jets, Ravens) when they were game planning against him and more or less gave Brady the middle of the field.

I'm sure you think that but you are wrong. Brady barely threw to Moss vs the Ravens, and i dont think there was one deep ball.

The other time people complained was the first Jet game on 2010, when Brady threw to a single covered Moss twice and Moss gave lame effort and it resulted in Ints. THAT GAME created a revisionist history that Brady forces the ball to Moss. Those are the facts regardless of what you want to make up.

See my post above. We killed the league going deep to Moss. As soon as we lose a playoff game and 1 regular season game you must now deem the reason we succeeded as the reason we lost because there is too much thinking involved in looking for the facts

Now you see just the opposite, teams are jamming the middle because there aren't any deepthreats (guys to beat man outside). I feel like Brady has been trying to force the ball downfield to keep the defense honest, but it just doesn't work now because he's got no one to throw to.

Forcing the ball downfield? When? How? Because we called one long pass vs Bmore where Slater had his man easily beaten, or because of a broken play scramble where he saw Gronk open deep? Come on. You are pretty much just making things up.

Get someone to keep the defense honest and it opens things up again. It would be a HUGE help against tough pass defenses.

They were open this year. Welker in the slot had the 4th most receptions (1 behind 2nd) of any receiver in any season ever (think about that) and the 15th most yards any receiver has ever had in any season.

Gronk had the most receiving yards any TE has ever had in a season, and the most TDs, and Gronk + Hernandez DESTROYED the best numbers ever put up by a teams TEs in any season.

To say that our offense faced struggles with the inside passing game is the most ludicrous statement you could ever make. No team in NFL hisotry has been more successful throwing inside and its not even close.

If your argument is we need an outside receiver to make it easier for the inside receivers when the inside receivers had a legendary season, your argument is idioitic.

Just because the O-line disintegrated in SB42 and Brady made mistakes in other games (forcing to Moss rather than taking the middle/short, forcing the ball deep to keep the defense honest without anyone downfield to actually make plays) that doesn't that a deepthreat doesn't help, nor does Brady's success this regular season.

I didn't say having better receivers wouldn't make the offense better. I said the offense is already head and shoulders above the defense, and that the facts show that the myth that a 'deep threat' is needed to allow Welker, Gronk and Hernandez to succeed is inaccurate.

Also, the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" arguments are BULLSHT. Belichick is ALWAYS looking to improve EVERY facet of his team.

Ah, the I will use BB to make it sound like he agrees with me so I am right manuever

He also knows he doesnt have the resources to improve every facet of the team so he focusses on the biggest liabilities.

So why wouldn't you look to improve a clear weakness? Seriously people... They have the cap space and the FA are going to be there, what the hell is the issue?

They passed for the 2nd most yards in NFL history. They allowed the 2nd most passing yards in NFL history.

They lost 4 games and in all 4 they couldn't come close from stopping the other team throwing the ball when the game was on the line.

Yeah, it really sounds like complementing 3 guys who caught 291 passes for 3800 yards and 33 TDs is a glaring weakness on this team.

 

[Joker]

My view is they need a WR that commands safety help on deep sideline routes, making the middle one on one for either Gronk, Welker or Hernandez....every game this season Branch was single covered...Lloyd would fit, and already knows the system...I give Colston, at best, a 50/50 shot of being signed...Wallace is a pipe dream, the Steelers are NOT making the cap moves they made today and letting Wallace walk for the 31st pick in the 1st round...at worst, the pats NEED an experienced WR who can take the top of the defense off and command double teams.

 

[Ring 6]

My view is they need a WR that commands safety help on deep sideline routes, making the middle one on one for either Gronk, Welker or Hernandez....every game this season Branch was single covered...Lloyd would fit, and already knows the system...I give Colston, at best, a 50/50 shot of being signed...Wallace is a pipe dream, the Steelers are NOT making the cap moves they made today and letting Wallace walk for the 31st pick in the 1st round...at worst, the pats NEED an experienced WR who can take the top of the defense off and command double teams.

But the argument doesn't really hold water. WITHOUT a 'deep threat', Wes Welker had the 15 highest receiving yard total in a single season in NFL history.

There is one player in NFL history that exceeded those yards more than once and that was Marvin Harrison, twice.

Moss never had as many recieving yards in any season other than 2003. Jerry Rice only exceeded in once.

Calvin Johnson is the only active NFL player that has ever had more recieving yards in any season than Wes Welker had this year, and he did it this year, with a monster game in week 17 to pass him by 112 yards and have the 6th highest total ever.

Its really silly to say something is needed to make things more open for Welker.


Gronkowski had more yards and TDs than any TE has ever had in a season.

Again, how do we argue the other guys on the field made it difficult for him to produce.

Gronk and Hernandez combined to blow away any TE combo production ever.


I don't understand how the greatest season BY FAR ever by an inside reciever and TEs is reason to say the outside recievers screwed up the inside receivers.

These 3 guys caught 291-3800-33. Can you find any 3 guys doing better on the same team ever?
How does that add up to the outside receviers handicapped them?

 

[Satchboogie3]

Andyjohnsony, look at the teams we put those stats up against. This offense had major trouble facing good passing defenses. Another quality reciever or two would help a ton. I'm not suggesting it's our biggest need, but it's a need. I also think we need to be more balanced, be better at running the ball (especially more explosive), use more screen plays again, start incorporating RB in the passing game, etc.

I do agree that "forcing" the ball to Moss maybe wasn't the best use of words. Moss stopped fighting for the ball in late '09/'10 and couldn't beat single coverage. Some of it was underthrows by Brady, but I don't think Brady should have been throwing to a singled Moss who didn't have a couple steps. He wasn't getting open.

As for my comments about him forcing the ball deep this year, I was noting that the game just wasn't there. Even when it was technically a good decision (guy open downfield), the 'open' receiver either couldn't locate the ball or couldn't catch it (drops by Ocho, out jumped/positioned Slater, unable to stay inbounds on routes outside the numbers, etc). We didn't have a single guy who could beat deep coverage and actually make the play, weather it was body control to stay in bounds, making positioning adjustments, jumping/attacking the ball, or winning the fight from the defender.

I also agree that defense is our #1 need still. CB and DE/DL is #1, Safety depth, and then WR/possibly RB/Oline depth. It's just that it seems a lot of people think we don't have ANY issues at the WR possition and we are set if we just resign Welker. I don't believe that. We need to upgrade.

I guess another factor in my thinking is that I'm not expecting Gronk or Hernandez to repeat their amazing seasons, along with the regression/aging of Branch. I just don't think you can rely on Gronk/Welker having record chasing/breaking season again. I think we need to add a bit just to stay even with this past season, but I'd prefer to improve a little if possible...

Here's a BIG fear of mine too: I'm TERRIFIED of when Brady starts locking in on Welker/Gronk because no one else can get open/do things. That's when the offense breaks down and bad things have happened. Brady's at his best when he has all the options and guys are getting open. I don't want him to just be looking at 2 guys and ignoring the rest because they suck.

 

[Joker]

I'm not arguing against what Welker, Gronk and Hernandez put up for numbers...I'm saying a WR that commands safety help over the top opens it up EVEN FURTHER for the inside receivers...that player does NOT currently wear a Patriots uniform....don't put words in my mouth

 

[Ron Sellers]

The question should not be whether or not the Pats could use an upgrade over Branch; of course they would like that.

The pertinent question is at what position do the Pats most need to upgrade?

Are we really more comfortable with Arrington, Moore, and Dowling/McCourty at corner than with Welker and Branch or whomever his replacement may be at wide receiver?

Are we really more comfortable with Chung, Ihedigbo and McCourty/Dowling at safety than with Welker and Branch at wide receiver?

Same deal at OLB and DE; if you could only pick one, what position would you want the team to upgrade?

Whatever it is, that's your number one priority.

In my opinion it is not wide receiver.