Are the Giants Overrated?

[ivanvamp]

What about the Jennings fumble botched call and the phantom helmet-to-helmet hit on Rogers? I believe both drives ended up in TD's for GB, so I would say 'yes' the NYG were easily two TD's better than the Packers on that day. In my mind it doesn't really matter what would happen if they played 99 more times.

The points you make are probably valid, and are probably the same reason LV has the Pats as favorites. I just don't like taking that view b/c opposing fans made similar arguments against the Pats in the early 2000's. "The better team didn't win." "The Pats wouldn't win if they played again" etc...

I said in my post that you just replied to: "They thoroughly outplayed Green Bay, no question." It is clear who the better team was that day.

I'm just saying that I don't think that game reflected the true level of the Giants, unless one is going to argue that the Giants really are 17 points better than the Giants on the road.

Bottom line: The Giants were a mediocre team in the regular season, but during their last 5 games, they've been otherworldly. The question is can they keep up their otherworldliness for one more game?

 

[pwes]

No they are not. The fact that they made it this far means they are not overrated. Some teams just elevate their play down the stretch. Eli may not be a world beater HOF QB but the team as a whole isn't overrated at all.

 

[guardplay320]

From the perspective of a Giants fan, you're missing one crucial component of our defense: of LB's. Our LB core was decimated with injuries in the middle of our losing streak. Boley went down halfway through the regular season 49er game which was a huge loss. They didn't have much depth and they had to throw in rookies at the position. Ask any Giants fan about Greg Jones and see how the react (they were a group of no names at LB for awhile there). He missed the Eagles and Saints games and was not yet truly back for the Packers game.

The combination of a healthy Osi, a healthy Boley and a healthier Tuck (although he's still playing hurt as he has all year) has made our defense an entirely different animal to face. We weren't getting nearly as much pressure until we had the combination of JPP, Tuck and Osi to rush the passer and create havoc. Osi has been the key to it all and with Boley healthy to help create traffic for the short passes up the middle, it's been tougher on opposing offense to march up and down the field on them as they did during the regular season.

That all being said, I expect a high scoring game. These two offenses are both two good for the opposing defenses and there are incredible mismatches on both ends. Both teams have way too many weapons for this to be a repeat of the low scoring last Superbowl that they played in, especially given that the field that they are playing on.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yes and it starts with Manning. I've actually heard this week the Giants have an edge at QB. The word elite being tossed around regarding Eli, I call BS. Is black white? Up down? Just because something gets repeated over and over again doesn't make it ******* so.

Elite how? The 9-7 record he led the team to?
No, that's average.

His 69-50 career record? Not when Brady is 124-35.

The 4933 yards he threw for? Not in a season were 10 QB's throw for over 4000 yards and three throw for over 5000.

The 16 interceptions he threw this year? The 25 he threw last year? Brady has never thrown more than 14.

His 185-129 TD/INT ratio? Brady's is 300-115. Think about that, 115 less TDs and 14 more INTs.

His playoff record? 4-0 and championship in 2007 and 3-0 this year. One and done in 2005,2006 and 2008. I actually read somewhere this week saying Brady's 16-5 record is slightly better than Elisha's 7-3.

Brady- 3 SB Championships, 5 AFC Championships, 16 playoffs wins (NFL record)

Anyone who calls Eli elite doesn't know the meaning of the word.

He's a good QB and the Giants can win with him but this elite crap is all NY hype.

A couple of articles that share the same sentiment. With a real accurate quote.

ELI MANNING - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com

Eli Manning: The Giants’ quarterback illustrates the NFL’s trouble with goodness. - Slate Magazine

"The single greatest problem with mainstream football analysis right now is its inability to deal with the merely good. We know what great looks like; we know what **** looks like, too. But when confronted with a player or a team that's only satisfactory, a B at best, we lose all our bearings and get drunk on cheap metaphysics (leadership, clutchness, etc."

 

[Buchanty]

The Giants have that elusive quality called momentum and it is driving their performances to a higher plane than their regular season ones. Momentum provides both confidence and above average execution. However it is at best a fickle attribute, and can desert teams and individuals when doubt creeps into the consciousness. It can take something as little as a single play, or a minor event (scrimage fisticuffs) to trigger a momentum change. More importantly it is extremely vulnerable to sustained negative situations as the doubt is amplified by every action.

I was worried at one time that the Giants would see their ineffectiveness in the second half of the NFCG as doubt builders. But that was not the case as the 49'ers special teams handed them the game. Instead of a reality check however they have only used their success to extend their confidence. Sometimes this is called hubris or pride, which as we well know (from SB 42 - only 17 points?) comes before a fall.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Anyone who calls Eli elite doesn't know the meaning of the word.

He's a good QB and the Giants can win with him but this elite crap is all NY hype.

You pretty much summed it up right here.

 

[Gronkandez]

I think the Giants are due for a bit of a regression, which I think is similar to what the OP is saying. The problem is, I don't think the Pats matchup well vs the Giants ie..I think Eli is due to vomit on himself, but the Patriots have a vulnerable secondary so unless he REALLY chokes, he should have very good stats.

If I were an impartial betting man I would certainly take the NYG getting 3.5 and still if only getting 3. I have a funny feeling about this game though, that I can't really put my finger, that makes me confident the Pats may win.

For instance, things like the NYG lost to the Packers and 49ers in the regular season, then beat them in the playoffs (same thing happened vs the Pats in 07). Converseley they beat the Pats during the regular season. Also, the Pats have that mystique feeling of a championship season. They drew Tebow in round 1, then that missed FG, combined with season dedication to Myra. Is a SB vicotry the Pats destiny?

 

[Gronkandez]

You pretty much summed it up right here.

The only problem is what is the definition of "elite?" He's certainly a top 5 QB in this league and has consistently proven to be clutch in the playoffs. The anti-Peyton. The counter argument is there is a big dropoff after Rogers, Brady and Brees.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Here is another example of hype not quite jiving with reality, from the usually excellent Fifth Down Blog at the New York Times.

Super Bowl: Why Giants Will Win - NYTimes.com

For example:

On the other side, we already know from the last game that Kyle Arrington has no shot against Cruz.​

- Cruz was targeted eleven times in passes from Manning.
- There were six completions and five incomplete passes.
- That's a below NFL average completion rate of just 54%.
- Cruz had zero touchdowns in that game.
- Arrington had one interception in that game.


I've come to expect these kind of statements from smack talking fans, but how is it that people who are paid to write for a living can't take two minutes to do even a minimal amount of research before blurring the line between opinion and fact with a statement like that one that has no evidence to back it up? If he feels Cruz is going to have a career day then fine, he's entitled to his opinion - but let's not rewrite history.

To hear some talk you would think the Giants won the game in November by 44 points rather than four points.

 

[guardplay320]

You pretty much summed it up right here.

My thought as a Giants fan is this whole media elite conversation is garbage and it is causing fans of other teams to downplay how good Eli is. He's not Brady by any means. That whole conversation is garbage. He's not his brother, Brees or Rodgers either. That said, I'd take him or Big Ben before any other QB in the league at this point. Eli's stats might not reflect just how good he was this year. He was extremely clutch and carried the team.

Everyone talks about the Giants amazing WR group, but so much of the credit of the success of that group goes to Eli. Eli came into the season with only Nicks and Bradshaw out of the backfield as passing weapons. People were predicting a 6-10, 7-9 like season for the Giants. Eli worked incredibly hard together with Cruz to turn him into a pretty special weapon and also helped turn a mediocre at best talent at TE in Ballard into a weapon until an injury has derailed his season a bit. He audibles at the line as well as anyone in the league not named Peyton and he has amazing pocket presence.

Sure, he can still be careless at times and throw a reckless pass, but the difference this year is that those careless passes are usually shots down the field. He also has dealt with a WR group who tends to drop a ton of passes. He had issues with Cruz screwing up his routes early in the year (that has certainly changed as Cruz has worked incredibly hard and now runs great routes) and Manningham still screws up on his routes all the time. People keep talking about the two balls the 49ers should have intercepted in the NFC championship game. The one where the 49ers players crashed into each other was not an Eli mistake, it was Nicks. Watch the play again and even listen to the announcers. Nicks faked out his own QB, the last thing you want to do as a WR. Nicks should have been in that crease in front of the two 49ers players. The second was a shot downfield that was underthrown by Eli. Those are the types of mistakes Eli can still make at times with shots downfield.

Elite is an overused term. If you want to say that only Brady, Brees, Rodgers and a healthy Peyton are elite fine. I could understand how annoying it would be to even hear his name with Brady's even in the same sentence, because the comparison is absurd. That being said, don't use the hype as an excuse to downplay how good Eli is. He's not just a good QB, he's a great QB. Elite? Maybe not. Great? If this season is any indication? Absolutely.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The only problem is what is the definition of "elite?" He's certainly a top 5 QB in this league and has consistently proven to be clutch in the playoffs. The anti-Peyton. The counter argument is there is a big dropoff after Rogers, Brady and Brees.

I agree. Unless there are universally agreed-to parameters that are used to define "elite" then for now it is in the eyes of the beholder and we use other QB's careers as barometers. Sometimes elite QBs may not have the prettiest numbers or the most championships- but they will have either/or/both. It might take some players longer to reach "elite" status than others. Some may not be considered elite until their playing days are over.

I do believe that Eli Manning is a very, very good QB. Hes had 3 straight 4k yd seasons 27TDs years and has won a Super Bowl & MVP. However hes also thrown a ton of picks and has had some bad playoff games. I view elite as a status and he is not quite in the Brady, Rodgers, Brees co- yet.

I will say that this game will define his status. If the Giants win and he has a monster game or a game-winning drive, then he is now in that company.

If he loses but has a monster game, its not as much of a lock but hes pretty darn close.

If he has a lousy game and the Giants win, then he is still in the "maybe" conversation.

If the loses and he plays poorly, then he'll need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

My thought as a Giants fan is this whole media elite conversation is garbage and it is causing fans of other teams to downplay how good Eli is. He's not Brady by any means. That whole conversation is garbage. He's not his brother, Brees or Rodgers either. That said, I'd take him or Big Ben before any other QB in the league at this point. Eli's stats might not reflect just how good he was this year. He was extremely clutch and carried the team.

Everyone talks about the Giants amazing WR group, but so much of the credit of the success of that group goes to Eli. Eli came into the season with only Nicks and Bradshaw out of the backfield as passing weapons. People were predicting a 6-10, 7-9 like season for the Giants. Eli worked incredibly hard together with Cruz to turn him into a pretty special weapon and also helped turn a mediocre at best talent at TE in Ballard into a weapon until an injury has derailed his season a bit. He audibles at the line as well as anyone in the league not named Peyton and he has amazing pocket presence.

Sure, he can still be careless at times and throw a reckless pass, but the difference this year is that those careless passes are usually shots down the field. He also has dealt with a WR group who tends to drop a ton of passes. He had issues with Cruz screwing up his routes early in the year (that has certainly changed as Cruz has worked incredibly hard and now runs great routes) and Manningham still screws up on his routes all the time. People keep talking about the two balls the 49ers should have intercepted in the NFC championship game. The one where the 49ers players crashed into each other was not an Eli mistake, it was Nicks. Watch the play again and even listen to the announcers. Nicks faked out his own QB, the last thing you want to do as a WR. Nicks should have been in that crease in front of the two 49ers players. The second was a shot downfield that was underthrown by Eli. Those are the types of mistakes Eli can still make at times with shots downfield.

Elite is an overused term. If you want to say that only Brady, Brees, Rodgers and a healthy Peyton are elite fine. I could understand how annoying it would be to even hear his name with Brady's even in the same sentence, because the comparison is absurd. That being said, don't use the hype as an excuse to downplay how good Eli is. He's not just a good QB, he's a great QB. Elite? Maybe not. Great? If this season is any indication? Absolutely.

He's played well this season and gives them a chance to win a week from now. That's all that really matters. Elite and even great are terms that get used far too often, can you suddenly become a great player in your 8th season? It's all semantics, I guess.

 

[The Brandon Five]

From the perspective of a Giants fan, you're missing one crucial component of our defense: of LB's. Our LB core was decimated with injuries in the middle of our losing streak. Boley went down halfway through the regular season 49er game which was a huge loss. They didn't have much depth and they had to throw in rookies at the position. Ask any Giants fan about Greg Jones and see how the react (they were a group of no names at LB for awhile there). He missed the Eagles and Saints games and was not yet truly back for the Packers game.

Boley missed two games.

In contrast, Brandon Spikes missed 7.5 (went out in the Giants game).

 

[ivanvamp]

Boley missed two games.

In contrast, Brandon Spikes missed 7.5 (went out in the Giants game).

Pats' key defensive players, games played:

Spikes: 8
Chung: 8
McCourty: 14
Mayo: 14
Deaderick: 10
Fletcher: 10

That's a lot of missed games from some very important people on their defense. More missed games than from Giants' key defenders. The big one is Umenyiora. But Spikes and Chung have obviously made a big difference for the Pats, too.

The meme that the Giants are great because now they are healthy just doesn't square with the facts. Unless, as I have said, Osi really is that great.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

The only problem is what is the definition of "elite?" He's certainly a top 5 QB in this league and has consistently proven to be clutch in the playoffs. The anti-Peyton. The counter argument is there is a big dropoff after Rogers, Brady and Brees.

Which makes them elite. That's what elite means. There's not a 2nd rung of being elite.

 

[guardplay320]

Pats' key defensive players, games played:

Spikes: 8
Chung: 8
McCourty: 14
Mayo: 14
Deaderick: 10
Fletcher: 10

That's a lot of missed games from some very important people on their defense. More missed games than from Giants' key defenders. The big one is Umenyiora. But Spikes and Chung have obviously made a big difference for the Pats, too.

The meme that the Giants are great because now they are healthy just doesn't square with the facts. Unless, as I have said, Osi really is that great.

Honestly, what do the Pats injuries have anything to do with the Giants? The thread is asking if the Giants are overrated, not whose injuries hurt them more. And even though Boley only missed 2 1/2 games, he was not fully back and healthy until late in the year. Tuck was playing hurt all year. And yes, Osi did make that much of a difference. You can choose not to believe that, but it's true. Once Osi was back and healthy, the pressure from their defense was night and day.

As for the Pats injuries, they clearly have stepped it up bigger as they got healthy also. Nobody denied that the Pats had their own injury problems.

 

[strngplyr]

Yes and it starts with Manning. I've actually heard this week the Giants have an edge at QB. The word elite being tossed around regarding Eli, I call BS. Is black white? Up down? Just because something gets repeated over and over again doesn't make it ******* so.

Elite how? The 9-7 record he led the team to?
No, that's average.

His 69-50 career record? Not when Brady is 124-35.

The 4933 yards he threw for? Not in a season were 10 QB's throw for over 4000 yards and three throw for over 5000.

The 16 interceptions he threw this year? The 25 he threw last year? Brady has never thrown more than 14.

His 185-129 TD/INT ratio? Brady's is 300-115. Think about that, 115 less TDs and 14 more INTs.

His playoff record? 4-0 and championship in 2007 and 3-0 this year. One and done in 2005,2006 and 2008. I actually read somewhere this week saying Brady's 16-5 record is slightly better than Elisha's 7-3.

Brady- 3 SB Championships, 5 AFC Championships, 16 playoffs wins (NFL record)

Anyone who calls Eli elite doesn't know the meaning of the word.

He's a good QB and the Giants can win with him but this elite crap is all NY hype.

A couple of articles that share the same sentiment. With a real accurate quote.

ELI MANNING - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com

Eli Manning: The Giants’ quarterback illustrates the NFL’s trouble with goodness. - Slate Magazine

"The single greatest problem with mainstream football analysis right now is its inability to deal with the merely good. We know what great looks like; we know what **** looks like, too. But when confronted with a player or a team that's only satisfactory, a B at best, we lose all our bearings and get drunk on cheap metaphysics (leadership, clutchness, etc."

Your problem is that you are comparing a very good QB to a GOAT candidate. Eli has played at an elite level THIS season. Part of being elite though, to me, is consistency. If he performs this way next season, I will call him elite. But if you want to go on a season by season basis, yes, Eli is Elite, and he is playing VERY good football right now, which is what 'elite' quarterbacks are expected to do in January and February.

But again, putting Eli side-by-side with Brady simply isn't fair, especially when you are using several career numbers to judge. Like I said, one QB is potentially the greatest to ever play the game when all is said and done, and the other is a very good QB at this point in time.

 

[andrewgarrr]

They are in the Super Bowl. Question answered?

Seriously, regular statistics means **** come playoff time. Win or go home. Whoever comes ready to play for their respective games is the best team.

If you're using regular season stats as your argument basis, then the overrated Giants will beat the Patriots because the Giants beat the Patriots in the regular season. Right?

Lastly, if the Giants are overrated than you must think the Packers, Falcons, 49ers, and Patriots really suck.

 

[guardplay320]

Boley missed two games.

In contrast, Brandon Spikes missed 7.5 (went out in the Giants game).

First off, Spikes injury has nothing to do with the Giants. Nobody was playing a game of whose injuries hurt their team more. Clearly both teams are better than ever now mainly because they are healthy.

Anybody who watched the Giants knows how much the Giants were influenced by Boley's injury this year. The problem is that the depth of the Giants at LB is nonexistent. The Giants were 6-2 when Boley went down in the middle of the 49ers game. They ended up losing that game and the next two with Boley out. He came back the next game against Green Bay but clearly wasn't 100%. After that Green Bay game, the Giants went 3-1. Osi was a HUGE loss to the Giants, but true Giants fans will tell you losing Boley was really huge as well and season changing. 9-4 with him (although he wasn't truly back against Green Bay), 0-3 without. I'll be honest and say that they would have lost to New Orleans in New Orleans anyway, because New Orleans is invincible at home (don't believe me? How about 8-0, outscoring opponents 329-143, or an average of 41-18).

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Will the Giants do this if we go no huddle. I think not.