Interesting points from Tom Curran

[BradyManny]

Why did Daboll not want to coach Jackson? That's something that King doesn't give us information on from Holley's book. What it a personal dislike for the kid? Or did Daboll not want to have to put in the extra effort that would be required since it's well known that Jackson had trouble learning plays in college. But once he learned them, he performed them well. We don't know because King didn't give us more information than that. And, since the book isn't out yet, We're not able to say for certain. And Holley may not have elaborated on it.

Again, by all accounts, Jackson kicked ass in his film review with BELICHICK. For whatever reason, it didn't transfer onto the field.

All fair points. And re: Daboll, we won't know until the book comes out.

And I agree re: Belichick and learning from his mistakes. But as I said - mistakes are just part of being a GM and a coach. They have happened and will continue to happen. In this case, I don't fault Curran for pointing some of them out.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think anyone ever thought that was true, re: Brady, since their lives are so out in the open and it's well documented that's not how it went down. But you're right - that wouldn't have mattered either way.

For Spikes, I guess the more disconcerting thing is how he did it - by posting it on the internet, which shows poor judgement.

It's less the action than the general lack of common sense shown.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that went down before the NFL draft & season, it just didn't really blow-up until he was a Patriot.

It's still not enough to stop me from drafting a player I like, but it's just something to consider. Since then, he's made some other off the field bonehead decisions. In the context of his on the field play, it's not an issue.

No one knew about the Internet video of Spikes until long after he was drafted. He reportedly put it on an obscure social network site with his name to it and not readily available to the general public. You can't blame Belichick for that. In fact, no one knows for sure if it happened before or after the draft.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Draft is NOT a crap shoot if you know what you're doing.

This is true. While people use the term "crap shoot", only idiots really think it applies. What's generally meant is that it's an inexact process. You can have all the measurables, and you can think you have all the intangibles, but you never know for sure until the guy gets on the field. That doesn't mean that there aren't some who can do it well and some who can't, but it does mean that even the best make pretty big mistakes.

The Steelers, Packers and Ravens consistency draft well. Usually, because they concentrate on their core competency which is defense and supplement on offense. That used to be what the Pats did. Why after going offense in 2010 they went offense again in 2011 in a defensive draft is mind boggling. Fine you take Solder and maybe Ridley, but why Vereen and why an injured Dowling. And stop saying he only missed 5 games his senior year, he was always hurting at Virginia and in high school. He gutted it out but when your body is ravaged in some spots it affects your whole body because you overcompensate. This ankle, becomes the knee, which becomes the hip. Same thing happens with pitchers.

The drafting should have been DE, OLB, OG, WR, RB. Those were the five areas of biggest need. Instead, he went out and ignored the DE/OLB in the draft and went with old 4-3 players instead, gutted the secondary, switched from 3-4 to 4-3 and grabbed 2 RBs when 1 would have been enough.

It was a poorly thought out draft.

Patriots 2001 - 2005 drafted exceptionally well on D, and also had a great core in place from the Parcells era.

Since then its been bad. That line from Holley's book is telling. Given that most Florida wide outs have been tremendous busts, that was telling. Running backs in the first round are ill-advised as a rule. Also, Meyer told him to take Dunlap over Cunningham. Where are all the Cunningham supporters?

Very telling: From 2006-2009, the Patriots drafted

Mincey
Andrews
Smith
Meriweather
Brown
Rogers
Richardson
Lua
Mayo
Wheatley
Crable
Wilhite
Ruud
Chung
Brace
Butler
McKenzie
Sulak
Pryor
Richard

As defensive players. That's 20 picks (if my math is correct, since I didn't double check the count), from 2006-2009. Of the 20, only 4 are still with the team, and 1 (Brace) is certainly questionable as to whether he'll be sticking around.

If people want to be honest about this team, and want to have an honest discussion of what's going on with it and why the defense is such a concern for some of us, that's a pretty good place to start.

 

[Rob0729]

The Draft is NOT a crap shoot if you know what you're doing.

The Steelers, Packers and Ravens consistency draft well. Usually, because they concentrate on their core competency which is defense and supplement on offense. That used to be what the Pats did. Why after going offense in 2010 they went offense again in 2011 in a defensive draft is mind boggling. Fine you take Solder and maybe Ridley, but why Vereen and why an injured Dowling. And stop saying he only missed 5 games his senior year, he was always hurting at Virginia and in high school. He gutted it out but when your body is ravaged in some spots it affects your whole body because you overcompensate. This ankle, becomes the knee, which becomes the hip. Same thing happens with pitchers.

Patriots 2001 - 2005 drafted exceptionally well on D, and also had a great core in place from the Parcells era.

Since then its been bad. That line from Holley's book is telling. Given that most Florida wide outs have been tremendous busts, that was telling. Running backs in the first round are ill-advised as a rule. Also, Meyer told him to take Dunlap over Cunningham. Where are all the Cunningham supporters?

First, the draft is a crap shoot. Not that you can just pick any player and he has a 50-50 chance to be good, but that even the best looking prospect could become a bust. You can be more educated than others on the draft, but even doing all your homework doesn't guarantee a team will do well in the draft. Every team you listed have clear examples of that. If the draft wasn't a crap shoot, the top 10 picks would have a 90-100% success rate every year and it is usually 40-70%.

Second, I can point to each of the teams you listed and see some stupid high picks.

- Baltimore with their first pick in 2010 selected Sergio Kindle eventhough there were some major red flags about him having some kind of brain issue. He ended up probably ruining his career because that issue caused him to fall down a flight of stairs and cracking his skull open.

- In 2007, the Packers selected Justin Harrell with the 16th pick in the draft. He was released by the Packers this summer. The guy couldn't stay on the field (he played 14 games in four years) and even when he could he was unremarkable. He had injury concerns in college (he ruptured his bicep three games in his last year in college). And you complain about Dowling at 34.

- The Steelers spent a second round pick on Limas Sweed eventhough he missed every game but one his last year at Texas. He has been a major bust since.

Third, you constantly overstate Dowling's injury history. He played four years for Virginia and missed only 6 games out of a possible 46 games he could have played (all in his last year). His first three years, he didn't miss a single game. How is that constantly injured. Yes, he had three separate injuries last year, but was healthy every other year in college.

Fourth, when did Meyer tell Belichick to take Dunlap over Cunningham other than you wishing he did and Belichick listened to him. Dunlap isn't having a great season this year either (granted better than Cunningham). He got his first sack of the season this past week against a horrible Seahawks offense. Fact of the matter was there were some serious red flags on Dunlap in terms of his work ethic, consistency, and off the field problems (had a DUI). The consistency has shown so far in his career (pedestrian his first half of the season last year and so far this year with a great second half last year).

 

[DaBruinz]

This is true. While people use the term "crap shoot", only idiots really think it applies. What's generally meant is that it's an inexact process. You can have all the measurables, and you can think you have all the intangibles, but you never know for sure until the guy gets on the field. That doesn't mean that there aren't some who can do it well and some who can't, but it does mean that even the best make pretty big mistakes.



The drafting should have been DE, OLB, OG, WR, RB. Those were the five areas of biggest need. Instead, he went out and ignored the DE/OLB in the draft and went with old 4-3 players instead, gutted the secondary, switched from 3-4 to 4-3 and grabbed 2 RBs when 1 would have been enough.

It was a poorly thought out draft.




Very telling: From 2006-2009, the Patriots drafted

Mincey
Andrews
Smith
Meriweather
Brown
Rogers
Richardson
Lua
Mayo
Wheatley
Crable
Wilhite
Ruud
Chung
Brace
Butler
McKenzie
Sulak
Pryor
Richard

As defensive players. That's 20 picks (if my math is correct, since I didn't double check the count), from 2006-2009. Of the 20, only 4 are still with the team, and 1 (Brace) is certainly questionable as to whether he'll be sticking around.

If people want to be honest about this team, and want to have an honest discussion of what's going on with it and why the defense is such a concern for some of us, that's a pretty good place to start.

Who is Sulak? The Patriots never drafted anyone by that name.

http://archive.patriots.com/history/index.cfm?ac=DraftTrade&year=2009&draft=yes&submit=Submit

 

[DaBruinz]

Third, you constantly overstate Dowling's injury history. He played four years for Virginia and missed only 6 games out of a possible 46 games he could have played (all in his last year). His first three years, he didn't miss a single game. How is that constantly injured. Yes, he had three separate injuries last year, but was healthy every other year in college.

Rob - This is not factually correct. Dowling missed 8 games due to injury. 7 in his senior year and 1 in his sophomore year due to a back injury.. That being said, he wasn't constantly injured. He did play hurt though on many occasions.. Just like every player does..

 

[Darolyn72]

Robo you don't make factual points, you're a cherry picker. If you're going to argue with me, you better have some facts behind you or I will make your arguments look foolish. Go back and look at Deus list of flops on Defense.

Dunlap is a key component on a very good defense and he has been a lot better than one sack. They have him the Game of the week ball this week. He's bee 10X the player Cunningham has.

You mentioned Kindle. He was a SECOND round pick. They took a chance. Trying to criticize Ozzie Newsome is just foolish.

2009 - Michael Oher, solid RT
2008 - Flacco, he's struggling this year, but he's won more playoff game than Brady since 2009.
2007 - Ben Grubbs starting guard, hurt right now, started 48 straight games
2006 - Haloit Ngata

Let's also mention Ed Reed in 2002, Ray Rice in the SECOND Round.


Now Pittsburgh - they draft Big Ben and Troy in 2003,2004

2011 - Cam Heyward, played well in limited time (Pats passed on him)
2010 - Pouncey, one of good young centers in the game immediate starter they also got Sanders in the 3rd round, Antonio Brown in the SIXTH!!!
2009 - Ziggy Hood and Mike Wallace in the 3rd round (they actually can develop a WR
2008 - Mendelhall, pretty good, Sweed was a SECOND round bust
2007 - Timmons and Woodley both starters, William Gay Starter
2006 - Santonio Holmes, Willie Colon
2005 - Heath Miller

And don't forget Harrison was an undrafted FA

 

[Darolyn72]

I want to be challenged with facts, i don't want homer arguments. Come on someone bring something. Did Fred Smerlas get a computer someplace!!!

 

[Rob0729]

Rob - This is not factually correct. Dowling missed 8 games due to injury. 7 in his senior year and 1 in his sophomore year due to a back injury.. That being said, he wasn't constantly injured. He did play hurt though on many occasions.. Just like every player does..

Sorry, I got that wrong. Still doesn't really change the overall point of him not being injured his entire college career though. I got some bad info. But other than last year, he missed one game his first three years.

 

[Darolyn72]

What are you talking about? You lost all credibility first you had Sweed and Kindle in the first round. I mean no one drafts as bad in the second round as the Patriots, that just a fact. And when DaBruinz is debunking you, what ground do you stand on.

Can you just admit you're a homer who doesn't like to speak bad against their team. You CANNOT win the argument that this team has drafted horrendously. Or we're all missing it and they can't coach anymore and these players would be good on other teams ala Jerome Mincey.

 

[Rob0729]

Robo you don't make factual points, you're a cherry picker. If you're going to argue with me, you better have some facts behind you or I will make your arguments look foolish. Go back and look at Deus list of flops on Defense.

Dunlap is a key component on a very good defense and he has been a lot better than one sack. They have him the Game of the week ball this week. He's bee 10X the player Cunningham has.

You mentioned Kindle. He was a SECOND round pick. They took a chance. Trying to criticize Ozzie Newsome is just foolish.

2009 - Michael Oher, solid RT
2008 - Flacco, he's struggling this year, but he's won more playoff game than Brady since 2009.
2007 - Ben Grubbs starting guard, hurt right now, started 48 straight games
2006 - Haloit Ngata

Let's also mention Ed Reed in 2002, Ray Rice in the SECOND Round.


Now Pittsburgh - they draft Big Ben and Troy in 2003,2004

2011 - Cam Heyward, played well in limited time (Pats passed on him)
2010 - Pouncey, one of good young centers in the game immediate starter they also got Sanders in the 3rd round, Antonio Brown in the SIXTH!!!
2009 - Ziggy Hood and Mike Wallace in the 3rd round (they actually can develop a WR
2008 - Mendelhall, pretty good, Sweed was a SECOND round bust
2007 - Timmons and Woodley both starters, William Gay Starter
2006 - Santonio Holmes, Willie Colon
2005 - Heath Miller

And don't forget Harrison was an undrafted FA

1. The Ravens didn't have a first round last year so he was their first pick. Where was I wrong? You should step away from the keyboard before you type more stupid things.

2. You are laughable. I can't critcize Newsome for taking a chance on a second round pick on Kindle, but you consistently blast Belichick for taking a chance on Ras-I Dowling in the second round or Jermaine Cunningham in the second round. You are proving yourself to be a fraud. Or are you admitting that you are foolish in your argument for criticizing Belichick for taking a chance in the second round? Or are you just a hypocrite? In fact, there was more pressure on the Ravens to hit with the Kindle pick since the Ravens had no first round pick and not as many second round picks as the Pats had. Also their other second round pick, Cody, has been decent, but not all that great.

3. Flacco has turned into a bad pick. The Ravens have won playoff games despite him. In fact, he was horrible when the Ravens beat the Pats in the playoffs in 2009. If they had to rely on him in that game, the Pats would have won. He is awful this year and has progressively gotten worse every year he has been in the NFL.

4. Santonio Holmes was not a great pick up for the Steelers. He had one very good year and a bunch of average ones. They unloaded him for a fifth round pick which shows you what they think of him.

5. I said Dunlap had a good game this past week. Was this game ball a retroactive "Hey went meant to give you a gameball every week this season, but didn't"?

6. You talk about me cherry picking players (which I never said that the teams weren't good drafters, but made some horrible miffs too) and then you start only listing one or two players a year for each team to show how great they are.



Hey than you for exposing yourself as a fraud though.

 

[Rob0729]

What are you talking about? You lost all credibility first you had Sweed and Kindle in the first round. I mean no one drafts as bad in the second round as the Patriots, that just a fact. And when DaBruinz is debunking you, what ground do you stand on.

Can you just admit you're a homer who doesn't like to speak bad against their team. You CANNOT win the argument that this team has drafted horrendously. Or we're all missing it and they can't coach anymore and these players would be good on other teams ala Jerome Mincey.

LOL! When did I ever say either Sweed or Kindle were first round picks? So I lost all credibility because you accuse me of something I never did. I clearly stated that Sweed was a second round pick and I CORRECTLY stated that Kindle was the Ravens' first pick in the 2010 draft since they didn't have a first rounder (they traded it away for more picks and a future pick in the first much like the Pats do and people biatch about).

It is you who lost all credibility when you claimed it was foolish to criticize Newsome for taking a chance on a player in the second round with major health concerns and then turn around and do the same thing with Belichick about Dowling who had lesser of concerns.

Also, DaBruinz didn't debunk me. He agreed with my overall premise, but I was two games off in my assertions. He doesn't think Dowling is injury prone.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Very telling: From 2006-2009, the Patriots drafted

Mincey
Andrews
Smith
Meriweather
Brown
Rogers
Richardson
Lua
Mayo
Wheatley
Crable
Wilhite
Ruud
Chung
Brace
Butler
McKenzie
Sulak
Pryor
Richard

As defensive players. That's 20 picks (if my math is correct, since I didn't double check the count), from 2006-2009. Of the 20, only 4 are still with the team, and 1 (Brace) is certainly questionable as to whether he'll be sticking around.

If people want to be honest about this team, and want to have an honest discussion of what's going on with it and why the defense is such a concern for some of us, that's a pretty good place to start.

I don't think the problem is with the players he drafted as much as it is with his philosophy of ignoring the OLB spot in his 3-4 defense. Veteran retreads are not getting it done.
He needs to draft and develop pass rushers. That way these poor young inexperienced DB's won;t have to cover all day in that soft zone defense and won't get their confidence shattered.

The reason we have one of the worst 3rd down defenses in the NFL is because we get zero pressure on QB's, causing DB's in our soft zone defense to have to give extra cushion. Add to that the void at FS and you have a recipe for the worst defense in the NFL.

 

[Snapper]

Robo you don't make factual points, you're a cherry picker.

2008 - Flacco, he's struggling this year, but he's won more playoff game than Brady since 2009.

LOL!

10char

 

[Garbanza]

Curren may be an ass, but he's spot on with this piece.

 

[Rob0729]

LOL!

10char

Wait, but Flacco is better than Brady. He gave you proof.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I enjoy Tom E but I for one am more interested in what Mary has to say

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think the problem is with the players he drafted as much as it is with his philosophy of ignoring the OLB spot in his 3-4 defense. Veteran retreads are not getting it done.
He needs to draft and develop pass rushers. That way these poor young inexperienced DB's won;t have to cover all day in that soft zone defense and won't get their confidence shattered.

The reason we have one of the worst 3rd down defenses in the NFL is because we get zero pressure on QB's, causing DB's in our soft zone defense to have to give extra cushion. Add to that the void at FS and you have a recipe for the worst defense in the NFL.

While his former strategy of getting veterans to work as linebackers in his 3-4 has not been as successful since the 2006 CBA, I can't buy your argument because I see it as a failure at all levels on that side of the ball, and not just an issue of failing to draft LBs.

As an aside, when I did go back to re-count the numbers, I found that the number I'd called regarding the list was correct (20) but also that NFL.com had put one player that had been drafted by the Raiders onto that Patriots list. So, the actual numbers are 4 of 19, because Sulak was drafted by the Raiders, not the Patriots.

 

[Darolyn72]

That wasn't a chance it was the 33rd pick after you just traded #28 away. Newsome could take a chance on Kindle because of the depth at Linebacker the Patriots had no depth at Corner.

Santonio Holmes won the Super with Ben in 2008, did you see it??? He just signed a 50 mill deal. They got rid of him because the Rooney's were worried about image of the team after Ben's attempted rape.

Dunlap is having a solid season, and let's face it, he's playing and Cunningham can't beat out Rob Ninkovich.

 

[Rob0729]

That wasn't a chance it was the 33rd pick after you just traded #28 away. Newsome could take a chance on Kindle because of the depth at Linebacker the Patriots had no depth at Corner.

Santonio Holmes won the Super with Ben in 2008, did you see it??? He just signed a 50 mill deal. They got rid of him because the Rooney's were worried about image of the team after Ben's attempted rape.

Dunlap is having a solid season, and let's face it, he's playing and Cunningham can't beat out Rob Ninkovich.

So the Pats had two first round picks and traded away one. The Ravens had one first round pick and traded it away. But they could take a chance. So the Pats had McCourty who was a stud at that point, Bodden returning who everyone thought would be a solid #2, Arrington who everyone thought would be a decent slot, and not to mention Butler and Whilhite as back ups at CB; yet the Pats had no depth. And who cares if the Ravens had depth at LB when their offense in particular WR and o-line are a mess. You logic makes no sense except you are trying to write circles to dig yourself out of a hole.

Holmes had one very good year. I said that. Mostly, he has been mediocre though. One very good year doesn't make a career or you a very good draft pick. He was traded away for nothing for a reason. They traded him away because he was an underperformer and a locker room cancer just like he is this year with the Jets.

Dunlap is having a better year than his stats, but he is clearly not the dominant player you make him out to be.