Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[Triumph]

Worthless?!? Acres and acres of land on a major road (RTE1) with a housing boom in effect in 1994? That land could have turned into upscale homes, retail center, amusement park, or whatever. The land was certainly not worthless without the Patriots. In fact at the time, spending on one or several of those options on the land would have been considered the safer and more profitable bet.

Why would Kraft consider moving the team to CT if he knew would make the land worthless? Kraft was already rumored to be negotiating with Six Flags to build an amusement park in the area if the team moved to CT.

Seriously, you are not making a strong argument. The land had a lot of options if the Pats did move. Kraft saw that the team had the potential to be really popular in this state which would make paying to keep the team the better option and part of that has to do with what Parcells did when he got here.

Kraft was never moving to Conn. He was playing Mass to get what he wanted.

An amusement park in Foxboro? That would have been a real money maker vs an NFL franchise.

 

[JoeSixPat]

People seem to have short memories.

Kraft initially came into the picture during the mid 80s when he bought a parcel of land near the stadium. He later bought the stadium - and more importantly the lease agreement - for $25 million when Sullivan was in bankruptcy.

That all went down when the team was coming off its Super Bowl appearance but things went bad pretty quickly from there.

Tommy Hodson. Hugh Millen. Irving Fryar flaming out... Rod Rust. **** McPhearson.

1-15. 2-14

Imagine THAT'S the team that's in Sullivan Stadium.

Moribund fan base. Empty seats. Games under constant threat of blackout. Freezing your butt off on aluminum bleachers that radiate 15 degree weather to watch the team lose in an embarrassing fashion.

Does that sound like a team that a shrewd businessman would offer an unprecedented NFL-record $175 million?

Or do you think, that without Parcells, Kraft - someone largely unknown among even the few die hard Patriots fans at the time - might have accepted the $75 million lease buyout and invest that in some (ANY) more lucrative business than a Parcel-less Bledsoe-less Patriots team.

Kraft was shrewd. He made Orthwein the counter-offer he couldn't refuse. An NFL-record offer that I HIGHLY doubt would have been made without Parcells and Bledsoe at the helm of the team.

No one here has yet been able to convince me that Robert Kraft turns down a 300% return on his initial investment - turns down $75 million after scratching and clawing his way in business - for a **** McPherson/Tommy Hodson/Hugh Millen team 2-14 team.

Parcells brought instant credibility and value to the team. The fans immediately responded. Parcells pick of a young Drew Bledsoe looked promising (although some thought Parcells f-ed up not taking Rick Mirer)- and even THEN the $175 million record offer that Orthwein took people's breath away. Bledsoe wasn't truly a known quantity at the time of the purchase though.

And you guys are all telling me Parcells wasn't even a factor in that critical NFL-record purchase that stopped the team from moving????

While no one knows for sure, with McPherson and Millen, Kraft takes the $75 million. That was HUGE amount back then.

I don't see him offering an NFL-record $175 million counter-offer without Parcells - the unquestioned top coach who came out of retirement with the expressed purpose of turning the team around.

You all seem to have a very different memory of all of that than I do.

 

[Rob0729]

Kraft was never moving to Conn. He was playing Mass to get what he wanted.

An amusement park in Foxboro? That would have been a real money maker vs an NFL franchise.

First, we are talking 1994. So yes, an amusement park could make money vs. an NFL franchise in 1994 or at least the revenue vs. the cost of building could be more attractive. There is a reason why Kraft bought a franchise that is now worth over a billion dollars for $175 million in 1994 and was considered an idiot for overpaying like that. You are talking about the NFL today as if the NFL in 1994 was anything like it is today. The broadcast revenues have exploded exponentially since 1994. Also, there were no concepts of all the individual team marketing deals in 1994. Jerry Jones started that a year (Jones made, controversial at the time, marketing deal directly with the Cowboys and Pepsi in 1995 which the Pats followed a few weeks later).

Second, you accuse me of making assumptions of what Curtis Martin is thinking without any knowledge and now doing the same thing with Kraft. You don't know if Kraft was just using CT to play Mass.

In fact, his first option was to make his land in Foxboro "worthless" and move the team to South Boston. Unfortunately for him, he didn't understand South Boston politics and culture and alienated the population and leaders quickly on a waterfront stadium. Was he using the waterfront stadium to leverage Massachusetts to build infrastructure for Foxboro?

Kraft contemplated moving the Pats out of Foxbor twice in the late 90s (only a few short years after buying the team). If he could have gotten the people of South Boston on his side, the Patriots would most likely be homed on the waterfront in South Boston right now. His land in Foxboro would probably be an amusement park or something else. So your argument doesn't fly that he bought the Pats because the land was useless without them because he tried to move out of Foxboro twice.

 

[Rob0729]

People seem to have short memories.

Kraft initially came into the picture during the mid 80s when he bought a parcel of land near the stadium. He later bought the stadium - and more importantly the lease agreement - for $25 million when Sullivan was in bankruptcy.

That all went down when the team was coming off its Super Bowl appearance but things went bad pretty quickly from there.

Tommy Hodson. Hugh Millen. Irving Fryar flaming out... Rod Rust. **** McPhearson.

1-15. 2-14

Imagine THAT'S the team that's in Sullivan Stadium.

Moribund fan base. Empty seats. Games under constant threat of blackout. Freezing your butt off on aluminum bleachers that radiate 15 degree weather to watch the team lose in an embarrassing fashion.

Does that sound like a team that a shrewd businessman would offer an unprecedented NFL-record $175 million?

Or do you think, that without Parcells, Kraft - someone largely unknown among even the few die hard Patriots fans at the time - might have accepted the $75 million lease buyout and invest that in some (ANY) more lucrative business than a Parcel-less Bledsoe-less Patriots team.

Kraft was shrewd. He made Orthwein the counter-offer he couldn't refuse.

No one here has yet been able to convince me that Robert Kraft turns down a 300% return on his initial investment - turns down $75 million after scratching and clawing his way in business - for a **** McPherson/Tommy Hodson/Hugh Millen team 2-14 team.

Parcells brought instant credibility and value to the team. The fans immediately responded. Parcells pick of a young Drew Bledsoe looked promising (although some thought Parcells f-ed up not taking Rick Mirer)- and even THEN the $175 million record offer that Orthwein took people's breath away. Bledsoe wasn't truly a known quantity at the time of the purchase though.

And you guys are all telling me Parcells wasn't even a factor in that critical NFL-record purchase that stopped the team from moving????

While no one knows for sure, with McPherson and Millen, Kraft takes the $75 million.

I don't see him offering an NFL-record $175 million counter-offer without Parcells - the unquestioned top coach who came out of retirement with the expressed purpose of turning the team around.

You all seem to have a very different memory of all of that than I do.

I didn't mention the buyout of the lease because quite frankly I didn't realize it was so big. I knew that Orthwein would have had to buy out the lease, but I figured it was much lower. Thanks for the info because it does clearly show Parcells did have an effect in Kraft's decision in how he brought legitimacy and popularity to the team.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I didn't mention the buyout of the lease because quite frankly I didn't realize it was so big. I knew that Orthwein would have had to buy out the lease, but I figured it was much lower. Thanks for the info because it does clearly show Parcells did have an effect in Kraft's decision in how he brought legitimacy and popularity to the team.

I think most people forget about that - and how low the team and the fanbase were.

Parcells shifted the paradigm before Kraft was owner, though Kraft brought the stability that was lacking before - no one was going to buy season tickets when Orthwein was trying to move the team out of town.

It's simple to me

With **** McPherson as coach of a moribund team, Kraft takes the $75 million buyout, tripling his investment, with few fans ever even knowing his name.

It's not like he "had no choice" but to buy the team like others suggest because he owned the stadium.

If anyone wants to convince me that Kraft turns down $75 million, leverages all his hard earned family resources and counter-offers an NFL record $175 million for a **** McPherson led team with hardly any fanbase, I'm all ears.

 

[Rob0729]

For those who dont know, the contract that Parcells signed with Curtis Martin is now illegal. After the deal went through, the NFL outlawed that type of poison pill.

Heres the deal.

Nfl Set To Grill Tuna, Jets - New York Daily News

First, it is not now illegal. It is frowned on by the league, but any team can put in poison pills into their contracts. In fact, the Vikings used a similair poison pill on Steve Hutchinsen several years ago. The Seahawks responded to that deal by giving Nate Burleson two poison pills the following year in his deal. The Pats considered using it on Welker, but opted to try to negotiate with the Dolphins instead according to Mike Reiss.

Also, your link shows the league investigated the deal, but from my recollection nothing came of it. Just because the league investigates something doesn't mean they find anything wrong. If they found the Martin deal illegal, they would have voided the deal.

Lastly, just because a league changes a rule doesn't mean anything if it was legal at the time. The league changes rules all the time. If the 70s Steelers played with the rules today, they might not have won four Super Bowls because their defense would not be as affective as it was because back then the rules were A LOT more friendly to the defense and what they could do. If they had the rules of today back then where it favors the offense, San Deigo might have had four Super Bowl back in the 70s/early 80s under Don Coryell.

EDIT: They did change one thing in the rules that relates to the Martin deal, you can no longer say that you will recind the franchise tag in an offer to an RFA. So I am wrong that the rules have changed based on that particular poison pill. But poison pills are still alive and well in the NFL. And again, what Parcells did was legal at the time, but not legal now. But many things the Patriots did legally in the past are not legal now.

 

[patfanken]

We can argue all day about the relative importance of Parcells being here to Bob Kraft's decision to buy the team. We can argue all day about the relative importance of the Players that were brought into Foxboro while Parcells was here. Clearly those Parcell's fans believe he drafted all the good players while Bobby Grier drafted only bad ones (which he actually did for Pete Carrol) We can argue all day about who had a bigger impact, Bill Parcells or Drew Bledsoe. A good case can be made for both....or either

The Bottom line is whether 34-32/ 2-2 and never having 2 consecutive winning seasons, is worthy of inclusion into the HOF Give all the negatives like the Jets superbowl fiasco, and the stealing of Curtis Martin, I don't think he should even have been nominated.

Thinking back on Mo's assertion that Parcells was over rated, I'm kind of beginning to agree with him....somewhat. We all should keep in mind that one of Parcell's strengths was he relationship to the media. They loved him because he always gave them what they wanted, which was something to write about. Our image of him is many ways is shaped by those in the media. He worked them to perfection in NYC, NE, Miami and Dallas. He was rarely seen in a negative light. He had Will McDonough so deeply in his pocket, Will couldn't go anywhere without a lint brush.

Again, Parcells was a GOOD coach. But ANY good coach can turn around 1-15 teams given the resources Parcells had. AGAIN - he NEVER sustained any of his successes. He always managed to get out of dodge on a high note. If he's a "genius", that's part of it. He knew when his expiration ran out.

Say NO to Parcells in the Pats HOF

 

[Ring 6]

One thing that I never understood is the ridiculous notion that the Pats would have won as many Super Bowls without the great drafting Parcells gave us.

Belichick had some pretty talented players from Parcell's drafting all those years.

No Parcells = not as many SB titles...if even one.

Could we have won 3 SBs without guys like Bruschi,McGinest,Law,Milloy,Johnson,Troy Brown Ect:?....I can't see how anyone could say that with a straight face......Belichick may have coached them to the best of their ability but they were still on the team to get to that point.

It think that is overrated. First Parcells left because he didn't get to make the draft picks, so how does he get credit for them? Second if those guys werent drafted others would have been, and that includes the poor picks, that were gone and didnt contrubte.
What if the 3 2nds in 1993 gave us someone who contributed to the SBs rather than Chris Slade, Vincent Brisby and Todd Rucci.
Or if we got anything besides McGinest out of 1994? Have you looked at how bad that draft was?
Or if the #1 in 1996 was the guy who bailed on the Championship team and actually had contributed?
Its easy to find good and bad draft picks from any 4 year era. I dont know how a few make the coach who didnt pick them responsible for the success.
Also, Milloy only contributed to 1, Law to 2. Ted Johnson was a jag on the SB teams, and Troy Brown wasn't Troy Brown before BB got here. Only 2 players from those 4 years, Bruschi and McGinest were big parts of all 3 SBs. That seems a stretch to say without PArcells we dont win.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Actually Kraft tried several times to buy the team during some of the worst teams ever. It just so happened that he bought it when Parcells came aboard. BTW it take quite a while to put a deal like that together. I doubt very much if Kraft knew who was going to coach the team when he started the process

Kraft knew who the coach was when he faced the decision of having to leverage all his resources to make an NFL-record $175 million offer to buy the team.

He wouldn't have done that with McPherson as the coach.

Heck - they thought he was crazy for buying it WITH Parcells as the coach.

A $75 million lease buyout is a lot today - it was even more back then. The stadium itself only cost $25 million.

Some seem to assert that Kraft had no choice. He had one - and it was STILL a HUGE leap of faith WITH Parcells.

That choice would have been a no-brainer "take the $75 million" without Parcells.

Talk about his record all you want. Talk about Curtis Martin and anything else.

But keep in mind you'd be talking about whether Parcells should be in the St. Louis Patriots Hall of Fame (or some other city) without him. That counts just a bit in his HoF consideration for me.

 

[Ring 6]

I think most people forget about that - and how low the team and the fanbase were.

Parcells shifted the paradigm before Kraft was owner, though Kraft brought the stability that was lacking before - no one was going to buy season tickets when Orthwein was trying to move the team out of town.

It's simple to me

With **** McPherson as coach of a moribund team, Kraft takes the $75 million buyout, tripling his investment, with few fans ever even knowing his name.

It's not like he "had no choice" but to buy the team like others suggest because he owned the stadium.

If anyone wants to convince me that Kraft turns down $75 million, leverages all his hard earned family resources and counter-offers an NFL record $175 million for a **** McPherson led team with hardly any fanbase, I'm all ears.

He would have fired McPherson and hired whoever he wanted to.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He would have fired McPherson and hired whoever he wanted to.

.... and turned down $75 million and spent an NFL-record $175 million for a rudderless team why?

Parcells was already here. That's the critical issue in Kraft turning down $75 million and investing a shocking $175 million. That deal doesn't happen without Parcells here.

Parcells was THE coaching catch of the era. The team was already turning around. That's what made turning down $75 million and making a record offer for an organization worth it.

We can entertain whatever J.J. Abrams alternative universe you want to propose but that doesn't change the fact that Parcells being in place is what allowed Kraft to turn down the buyout and make the offer he did.

As I said I think Kraft, Parcells, and Bledsoe should all go in together since all three were so important. But I think Kraft wants to go in on his own, and I'm ok with that too.

Perhaps most importantly - if Kraft didn't think Parcells were HoF worthy, I tend to doubt his name would be on the nomination list.

 

[stinkypete]

Again, Parcells was a GOOD coach. But ANY good coach can turn around 1-15 teams given the resources Parcells had. AGAIN - he NEVER sustained any of his successes. He always managed to get out of dodge on a high note. If he's a "genius", that's part of it. He knew when his expiration ran out.
Say NO to Parcells in the Pats HOF

I disagree. There are far more coaches who fail in their attempts to restore a moribund franchise than there are coaches who succeed.

I hate Parcells, always did, even when he first took over the team. I can't forgive him for bolting on the eve of the Super Bowl.

Still, the core of the Patriots championship defense was a Parcells core: Bruschi, McGinnest, Johnson, Milloy, Law...all Parcells picks. Belichick was a Parcells guy.

No Parcells = No Belichick.

Also, guys like Bobby Hamilton, Roman Pfifer and Anthony Pleasant were also Parcells guys that Belichick brought in.

And Bledsoe, whom, under another coach, may have become Rick Miror, not only resurrected the franchise and the fan base, he was traded for picks that became Wilfork and Eugene Wilson.

No matter how you look at it, Parcells laid the foundation of the Patirots dynasty. That is certainly HOF worthy.

 

[RayClay]

No Parcells = No Belichick.

Actually, If Kraft buys the team without Parcells, maybe there would be two decades of championships. What would stop him from hiring the top assistant in football, who also had head coaching experience?

If anything, the Pete Carroll era only existed because Kraft was reluctant to hire BB so soon after the Parcells debacle.

Revisionist history is a tricky thing, as Sherman and Peabody proved many times. Parcells should be judged on his own merits, one of the better Patriots coaches, who helped build the core of what was later a championship team. He brought them to a Super Bowl, the abandoned them before the ultimate game.

For his body of work, he deserves to be in the Pro Football Hall, for his Patriots career, borderline. As has been proven by Houston Antwine, it's sometimes easier to be acknowledged in the Pro Football Hall as an all time great, than in the Patriots HOF.

 

[Ring 6]

.... and turned down $75 million and spent an NFL-record $175 million for a rudderless team why?

Parcells was already here. That's the critical issue in Kraft turning down $75 million and investing a shocking $175 million. That deal doesn't happen without Parcells here.

He wanted the team. He would not have not bought it because he didnt like the coach, he would have hired a new one.

Parcells was THE coaching catch of the era. The team was already turning around. That's what made turning down $75 million and making a record offer for an organization worth it.

When the deal was finalized the team had just gone 5-11.
When it was started they were the same franchise you described as no one wanting.

We can entertain whatever J.J. Abrams alternative universe you want to propose but that doesn't change the fact that Parcells being in place is what allowed Kraft to turn down the buyout and make the offer he did.

You are the one proposing the alternate universe where Kraft doesnt buy the team.

As I said I think Kraft, Parcells, and Bledsoe should all go in together since all three were so important. But I think Kraft wants to go in on his own, and I'm ok with that too.

Kraft, Parcells and Bledose are only tied together in your mind.

Perhaps most importantly - if Kraft didn't think Parcells were HoF worthy, I tend to doubt his name would be on the nomination list.

So now your proof that he should be inducted was that he was nominated? Sounds like you are backpedalling.

Look, I can tell you love the Tuna, and thats fine. But I disagree that he deserves credit for what Bob Kraft and Bill Belichick did after he left, and to think that a lifetime Patriot fan would not buy the team because it was on a down run, and would only do so because a coach he liked was in place is totally ludicrous.
Having to hire a coach would be so small a factor in a decision to purchase an NFL franchise its ridiculous to make such an argument, IMO.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Actually, If Kraft buys the team without Parcells, maybe there would be two decades of championships. What would stop him from hiring the top assistant in football, who also had head coaching experience?

If anything, the Pete Carroll era only existed because Kraft was reluctant to hire BB so soon after the Parcells debacle.

Revisionist history is a tricky thing, as Sherman and Peabody proved many times. Parcells should be judged on his own merits, one of the better Patriots coaches, who helped build the core of what was later a championship team. He brought them to a Super Bowl, the abandoned them before the ultimate game.

For his body of work, he deserves to be in the Pro Football Hall, for his Patriots career, borderline. As has been proven by Houston Antwine, it's sometimes easier to be acknowledged in the Pro Football Hall as an all time great, than in the Patriots HOF.

Yes - revisionist history is a tricky thing, as is a JJ Abrams alternative football universe where the World Trade Center is still standing and some other assistant coach is enough to prompt Kraft to take an even bolder chance and turn down $75 million and spend an NFL record $175 million to keep the team here and win more Super Bowls than we have.

Let's deal with the facts - not fantasy - and recognize that Parcells was HERE - and was already turning the team around - and that fact is part of what prompted Bob Kraft to turn down $75 million and spend an NFL record for an organization.

Deal with the reality of what transpired from there and recognize that yes, Parcells did play a pivotal role in that chain of dominoes.

I understand why many dislike Parcells - I'd just hope that as Patriots fans and football fans they could look beyond such old grudges and be logical.

 

[Ring 6]

I disagree. There are far more coaches who fail in their attempts to restore a moribund franchise than there are coaches who succeed.

Depends on your criteria.

I hate Parcells, always did, even when he first took over the team. I can't forgive him for bolting on the eve of the Super Bowl.

Still, the core of the Patriots championship defense was a Parcells core: Bruschi, McGinnest, Johnson, Milloy, Law...all Parcells picks. Belichick was a Parcells guy.

Milloy played in 1 SB, Law 2. Johnson was a jag by 2001.
Parcells says he left because he wasn't allowed to make the picks, why does he now get credit for making them? Shouldn't some of the players he picked still be contributing 5 years after he leaves?

No Parcells = No Belichick.

Even if that were true, which is debatable how does that put him in the HOF?

Also, guys like Bobby Hamilton, Roman Pfifer and Anthony Pleasant were also Parcells guys that Belichick brought in.

No.

And Bledsoe, whom, under another coach, may have become Rick Miror, not only resurrected the franchise and the fan base, he was traded for picks that became Wilfork and Eugene Wilson.

And under a different coach he may have realized his potential and not made terrible decisions.

No matter how you look at it, Parcells laid the foundation of the Patirots dynasty. That is certainly HOF worthy.

Then I guess Pete Carroll and Bobby Grier belong too?

 

[Ring 6]

Yes - revisionist history is a tricky thing, as is a JJ Abrams alternative football universe where the World Trade Center is still standing and some other assistant coach is enough to prompt Kraft to take an even bolder chance and turn down $75 million and spend an NFL record $175 million to keep the team here and win more Super Bowls than we have.

One more time, YOU are the one creating the alternate universe where Kraft doesnt buy the team.

Let's deal with the facts - not fantasy/quote]
Let's

- and recognize that Parcells was HERE - and was already turning the team around - and that fact is part of what prompted Bob Kraft to turn down $75 million and spend an NFL record for an organization.

I thought we were going to deal with facts?
This is an unsubstantiated opinion.

Deal with the reality of what transpired from there and recognize that yes, Parcells did play a pivotal role in that chain of dominoes.

Parcells did his job for 4 years with a limited amount of success, probaby more than most would have had considering where he started, and 5 years after he left some of the players that were here under him were still here.
Should we credit **** McPHerson with laying the groundwork for the success Parcells had? Or Rod Rust or Ray Berry?

I understand why many dislike Parcells - I'd just hope that as Patriots fans and football fans they could look beyond such old grudges and be logical.

It's not a matter of dislike or grudges, its a matter of judging him on what he did, not giving him credit for other things to make his record seem better.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He wanted the team. He would not have not bought it because he didnt like the coach, he would have hired a new one.
Having to hire a coach would be so small a factor in a decision to purchase an NFL franchise its ridiculous to make such an argument, IMO.

OK - I get it - I've been completely missing your sarcasm, thinking that you're being serious. :laughing:

Of course we all know how important a coach is - and was back then... and that Kraft as a very smart businessman didn't buy the team for an unheard of record amount in SPITE of Parcells being the coach (because a coach is such a small factor, right )

Glad that we're both on the same page that no one would have expected Kraft to turn down $75 million and gamble with the largest purchase price of an NFL team in the history of the NFL without Parcells - the undisputed best available coach of the age - in place.

 

[patfanken]

Directly linking Parcells being here with one of the major reasons Kraft buys the team is ludicrous. As I said before Kraft originally tried to buy the team from Sullivan and later Kiam. He had already invested heavily in a stadium he knew to be the worst in the league. Also don't forget that at the time there were OTHER bidders as well. Paul Fireman, Reebock's owner and a guy who had a LOT more money than Bob Kraft also wanted the team. IIRC I was hoping Fireman would become the owner because of his deep pockets (and the fact I was working with his first cousin at the time.)

While I'm sure Kraft was happy that Parcellls was an asset of the team he bought, it was NOT a critical part of his decision. He bought because he was protecting an existing asset (the land and stadium) He bought it because he had been a long time PASSIONATE fan. He bought because he COULD afford it. He bought it so he could join a billionaires ghclub and be part of the NFL. ULTIMATELY he bought it for all the same reasons WE would buy a professional team if we could afford it. We love the game, the league, the team, the area.....and extraordinary feeling it must be to walk into that stadium in fall and know this is all yours...........WHAT A RUSH.

 

[Ring 6]

OK - I get it - I've been completely missing your sarcasm, thinking that you're being serious. :laughing:

Of course we all know how important a coach is - and was back then... and that Kraft as a very smart businessman didn't buy the team for an unheard of record amount in SPITE of Parcells being the coach (because a coach is such a small factor, right )

Glad that we're both on the same page that no one would have expected Kraft to turn down $75 million and gamble with the largest purchase price of an NFL team in the history of the NFL without Parcells - the undisputed best available coach of the age - in place.

You are confusing the impact of a coach on winning with the impact who the coach is has to do with buying a team.
Your argument is that Parcells was the reason he bought the team, solely because you want that to be. Owners don't buy teams because of their record, they buy them in order to own them and RUN them.