Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[patfanken]

Do you see Kraft leveraging everything to buy the team with Rod Rust or **** McPhearson as the coach?

I don't.

So which new owner committed to keeping the team here do you envision stepping in after that. And with a Rod Rust rather than a Bill Parcells, does it even matter?

Actually Kraft tried several times to buy the team during some of the worst teams ever. It just so happened that he bought it when Parcells came aboard. BTW it take quite a while to put a deal like that together. I doubt very much if Kraft knew who was going to coach the team when he started the process

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

if Ray berry is not in the pats hof ,than tuna fat lier parcells should not even be considered...

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

First of all you don't put a guy n the Pats HOF who had one ood year. Otherwise Ray Berry should go in ahead of them. Second, Robo, get your figures straight. The Pats averaged 40-60,000 for home games (depending on the weather and who was playing), even in the bad old days. What was low was the season ticket sales which IIRC dropped down to as low as !7,000 at its worst.

Parcells was certainly a good coach, but he failed in NY with the Jets, with the Dolphins and with the Cowboys. He made a living going to teams who had been horrible for a few years before he got there, so he had some good talent when he got there from the high draft picks, then getting the most out of that talent.....then taking off just as his coaching style was became unbearable to his players.

I think he was a good coach. Was he over rated. I don't know. What I do know is that he would NEVER have been able to successfully coach a team over the long haul, like BB has done. He was definitely a turn around specialist, but he NEVER would have been able to sustain any long term success with one team.

To his credit he knew this better than anyone, and that's why he had a 5 year....or less, expiration date.

A lot of people give him credit for those turnarounds, but it isn't hard, especially if you are a good coach, to improve on 1-15,2-14 teams like he always walked into. Look at what he couldn't do with the Cowboys. That was a pretty good team he walked into and although he got them into the playoffs, it wasn't a surprise. What was a surprise was that he never won a playoff game.

NO Big Bill in the Pats HOF - Like Mo said 34-31 2-2 aren't HOF numbers

But yet according to many on this board the QB with the 63-60 and 3-3 won/loss record is not only is a no-brainer slam dunk for the team HOF he is also somehow responsible for the teams success since he was traded in 2001. Vote Antwine for HOF.

 

[patsfan-1982]

he helped draft Drew Bledsoe and a few guys who helped this team win some SB's but botom line is he was 32 and 32 as a HC i see no reason why any one who coached a team to a .500 record in 4 seasons with out winning a SB should be in that teams HOF

 

[Triumph]

I blame Bobby Grier for that, not Parcells. Grier insulted Martin by refusing to negotiate before the last year of his deal and then brag to media how great of a player personnel guy he was because he had a Pro Bowler like Curtis Martin on the roster for $300k. Don't forget the only reason Martin signed that deal was because he didn't want to play for the Patriots anymore. Otherwise, he would have given the Pats an opportunity to match it before he even signed the tender contract from the Jets.

Of all the arguments against Parcells getting into the Patriots HOF, that one is really low.

Almost as low as your insistence that Kraft bought the Pats because Parcells was HC. Forget the fact that Kraft already owned the stadium and land surrounding it. Nevermind that Kraft is a New Englander and Pats season ticket holder since 1971 and didnt want the Patriots to move from the area.

Parcells signed Martin to a contract with a poison pill that is now illegal in the NFL. Even if NE matched the Jets offer, Martin could void the contract after 1 season and go back to Parcells.

There was no way NE could counter offer.

 

[Rob0729]

Almost as low as your insistence that Kraft bought the Pats because Parcells was HC. Forget the fact that Kraft already owned the stadium and land surrounding it. Nevermind that Kraft is a New Englander and Pats season ticket holder since 1971 and didnt want the Patriots to move from the area.

Parcells signed Martin to a contract with a poison pill that is now illegal in the NFL. Even if NE matched the Jets offer, Martin could void the contract after 1 season and go back to Parcells.

There was no way NE could counter offer.

First, I never said Kraft bought the team because Parcells was the head coach. I said that his addition was a factor because there was a geniune interest in the Patriots in this town. Kraft paid a ridiculous amount of money at the time for the Patriots which everyone thought he was crazy. He might not have spent that much if there wasn't a renewed interest in the Patriots. Kraft bought the team because he saw that this could be a Patriots town or at least the Pats could be a major factor in the Boston sports interest and that was in large part because of Parcells coming to town.

Kraft is a fan, but he is also a businessman. He wasn't going to sink $180 million (seems miniscule now, but was huge at the time) into a team and relive the Sullivan and Kiam years for this team. Even without Sullivan's stupid investment in the Jackson tours, they weren't making enough money to justify the investment especially since Kraft's net worth at the time was not nearly as big as it now. And back in 1993 no one knew that the television deals would get nearly as big as they are now.

Second, I know the history of the Martin deal. In fact, better than you. Martin wanted out of the Patriots because he was peissed off that Grier refused to redo his deal before his rookie contract expired and bragged about how smart he was for doing it. Parcells took advantage of it. If Bobby Grier wasn't such a moron (and that fact is well documented), Martin would have never even gotten to free agency.

The fact of the matter was that Martin was gone no matter what. He might not have left the year he did, but probably the next year. Grier burnt the relationship with his stupidity and ego. It is his fault Martin didn't retire a Patriot. If Martin wanted to be here, he could have easily given the Pats the chance to meet or beat the offer before he signed it with the Pats, but he wanted the poison pill just as much as Parcells wanted it.

Also, if Belichick used a poison pill to acquire a player that played with him when he was a Jet, you andd everyone else would have applauded him.

I don't like Parcells for what he did at the end, but I am not going to erase how he helped to resurrect the Patriots from league laughing stock and less popular in this town than the Bruins. He played a factor in it. The start of the resurrection helped Kraft see that it was a good investment (although it clearly wasn't the only or main factor). I also will not blame Parcells for the incompetence that was Bobby Grier. Parcells took advantage of Grier's incompetence, but Grier's stupidity and arrogance opened the door.

You attack me and twist my words for this argument.

 

[Triumph]

Parcells was THE REASON Kraft bought the team, but he was certainly A REASON and pretty big one at that.

Im not twisting any words.

In fact, there isnt one shred of proof that Kraft bought the team because Parcells was HC.

 

[Rob0729]

Im not twisting any words.

In fact, there isnt one shred of proof that Kraft bought the team because Parcells was HC.

LOL! One of the reason I bought my house was because I liked the shower in the master bedroom. So I bought my house because of the shower in the master bedroom?!?

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. There were probably hundreds or thousands of reasons why Kraft bought the team. Parcells was one of them. His ability to generate a strong interest in the team was a big one, but I never said it was THE REASON nor did I say it was the biggest reason.

You didn't get my point to begin with. It wasn't that Kraft was buying the team because Parcells was the head coach. It was because when Parcells became the head coach, it created a spark in interest in the team that was lacking even during their good times in the late 70s through mid 80s. The addition of Parcells did show there was an untapped market for the team in this town. Now that might have happened if Jimmy Johnson or another coach at the time who had Super Bowl credencials came instead of Parcells, but it was Parcells. Parcells also gave some legitimacy to the team which was killed during the Rod Rust/**** MacPherson years.

Thank you for taking the quote out to prove yourself wrong. You claimed I said Parcells was THE REASON Kraft bought the team and that quote clearly shows I didn't. Here is what you said again:

Almost as low as your insistence that Kraft bought the Pats because Parcells was HC.

Never said that and you proved I didn't. Hence you twisted my words.

 

[Triumph]

First, I never said Kraft bought the team because Parcells was the head coach. I said that his addition was a factor because there was a geniune interest in the Patriots in this town. Kraft paid a ridiculous amount of money at the time for the Patriots which everyone thought he was crazy. He might not have spent that much if there wasn't a renewed interest in the Patriots. Kraft bought the team because he saw that this could be a Patriots town or at least the Pats could be a major factor in the Boston sports interest and that was in large part because of Parcells coming to town.

However, Kraft not only refused the offer, but made a bold counter-offer – a then NFL-record $175 million for the outright purchase of the Patriots, a surprising move in that the Patriots were, at the time, among the NFL's least-valuable franchises.

As Kraft had the stadium lease as leverage, Orthwein had little choice but to accept Kraft's counter-offer. The day after the NFL approved the sale in January 1994, Patriots fans showed their appreciation by purchasing almost 6,000 season tickets en route to selling out every game for the first time in the team's 34-year history.

The Pats did not even sell out under Parcells.

Kraft is a fan, but he is also a businessman. He wasn't going to sink $180 million (seems miniscule now, but was huge at the time) into a team and relive the Sullivan and Kiam years for this team. Even without Sullivan's stupid investment in the Jackson tours, they weren't making enough money to justify the investment especially since Kraft's net worth at the time was not nearly as big as it now. And back in 1993 no one knew that the television deals would get nearly as big as they are now.

Yes, Kraft is a business man and made an offer to Orthwien that he could not refuse. Orthwein would never get a better deal and no others outside bidders would muddy the waters.

Second, I know the history of the Martin deal. In fact, better than you. Martin wanted out of the Patriots because he was peissed off that Grier refused to redo his deal before his rookie contract expired and bragged about how smart he was for doing it. Parcells took advantage of it. If Bobby Grier wasn't such a moron (and that fact is well documented), Martin would have never even gotten to free agency.

Do you know how much Martin was asking for?

The fact of the matter was that Martin was gone no matter what. He might not have left the year he did, but probably the next year. Grier burnt the relationship with his stupidity and ego. It is his fault Martin didn't retire a Patriot. If Martin wanted to be here, he could have easily given the Pats the chance to meet or beat the offer before he signed it with the Pats, but he wanted the poison pill just as much as Parcells wanted it.

How do you know what Martin would have done? Did you ask him?

The contract Parcells used to screw the Pats is now illegal in the NFL. And you want him in the NE HOF?

Also, if Belichick used a poison pill to acquire a player that played with him when he was a Jet, you andd everyone else would have applauded him.

Maybe, might, probably.

I don't like Parcells for what he did at the end, but I am not going to erase how he helped to resurrect the Patriots from league laughing stock and less popular in this town than the Bruins. He played a factor in it. The start of the resurrection helped Kraft see that it was a good investment (although it clearly wasn't the only or main factor). I also will not blame Parcells for the incompetence that was Bobby Grier. Parcells took advantage of Grier's incompetence, but Grier's stupidity and arrogance opened the door.

You attack me and twist my words for this argument.

Nobody is attacking you.

 

[Triumph]

LOL! One of the reason I bought my house was because I liked the shower in the master bedroom. So I bought my house because of the shower in the master bedroom?!?

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. There were probably hundreds or thousands of reasons why Kraft bought the team. Parcells was one of them. His ability to generate a strong interest in the team was a big one, but I never said it was THE REASON nor did I say it was the biggest reason.

You didn't get my point to begin with. It wasn't that Kraft was buying the team because Parcells was the head coach. It was because when Parcells became the head coach, it created a spark in interest in the team that was lacking even during their good times in the late 70s through mid 80s. The addition of Parcells did show there was an untapped market for the team in this town. Now that might have happened if Jimmy Johnson or another coach at the time who had Super Bowl credencials came instead of Parcells, but it was Parcells. Parcells also gave some legitimacy to the team which was killed during the Rod Rust/**** MacPherson years.

Thank you for taking the quote out to prove yourself wrong. You claimed I said Parcells was THE REASON Kraft bought the team and that quote clearly shows I didn't. Here is what you said again:



Never said that and you proved I didn't. Hence you twisted my words.

Originally Posted by Rob0729
Parcells was THE REASON Kraft bought the team,

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

he helped draft Drew Bledsoe and a few guys who helped this team win some SB's but botom line is he was 32 and 32 as a HC i see no reason why any one who coached a team to a .500 record in 4 seasons with out winning a SB should be in that teams HOF

Without Desmond Howard in that SB,we win that game...Howard,not Farve was the factor.....Reggie White (R.I.P.) was the playmaker on defense and made the difference.

I really think the Pats were the better team in 96

 

[Rob0729]

Originally Posted by Rob0729
Parcells was THE REASON Kraft bought the team,

Sorry, clearly a typo on my part which I missed. Anyone could see that I meant to say He WASN'T the reason. I guess I screwed up on that part, but it seems pretty clear by the entire post that I was not arguing that. I mean how can you be "the reason, but certainly a reason and a big one"?

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Miami was the hurdle Parcells was never able to fix....aside from a record turnaround and a division title over a 2008 Brady-less Pats team,he failed miserably as a GM,Miami is still a mediocre team at best Post-Marino

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

One thing that I never understood is the ridiculous notion that the Pats would have won as many Super Bowls without the great drafting Parcells gave us.

Belichick had some pretty talented players from Parcell's drafting all those years.

No Parcells = not as many SB titles...if even one.

Could we have won 3 SBs without guys like Bruschi,McGinest,Law,Milloy,Johnson,Troy Brown Ect:?....I can't see how anyone could say that with a straight face......Belichick may have coached them to the best of their ability but they were still on the team to get to that point.

 

[Rob0729]

However, Kraft not only refused the offer, but made a bold counter-offer – a then NFL-record $175 million for the outright purchase of the Patriots, a surprising move in that the Patriots were, at the time, among the NFL's least-valuable franchises.

As Kraft had the stadium lease as leverage, Orthwein had little choice but to accept Kraft's counter-offer. The day after the NFL approved the sale in January 1994, Patriots fans showed their appreciation by purchasing almost 6,000 season tickets en route to selling out every game for the first time in the team's 34-year history.

The Pats did not even sell out under Parcells.

The question is would Kraft have done it if there wasn't a renewed interest. If Kraft had the leverage, why would he offer Orthwein "a then NFL-record $175 million for the outright purchase of the Patriots" for "at the time, among the NFL's least-valuable franchises". Are you saying Kraft is a bad businessman who although holding all the cards, grossly overpaid for the team? Sorry, but Orthwein is a major player in St. Louis and wanted to bring a team back to his city. Kraft had to overpay to stop him.

Also, the ticket sales were not because the fans were showing their appreciation to Kraft. They bought the tickets because there was a renewed interest in the team because of Parcells and Bledsoe and Kraft guaranteed the team was staying in Foxboro for the forseeable future. If **** MacPherson or Rod Rust were still the head coach, do you really think that there would be a sellout season in 1994?

Yes, Kraft is a business man and made an offer to Orthwien that he could not refuse. Orthwein would never get a better deal and no others outside bidders would muddy the waters.

I don't know if this is a rebuttal to what I was saying. I never said that Kraft didn't make Orthwein an offer he couldn't refuse. That doesn't counter that Kraft may not have made that offer and might have thought the land was more valuable being something else if they still had the incompetitence of Rod Rust or **** MacPherson running the team.

Do you know how much Martin was asking for?

I don't think Grier knew either. Grier wanted Martin to play out his rookie deal and refused to negotiate and bragged about it. Let's not diminish Grier's incompetence and arrogance because you hate Parcells.

How do you know what Martin would have done? Did you ask him?

The contract Parcells used to screw the Pats is now illegal in the NFL. And you want him in the NE HOF?

First, poison pill contracts are not nor never have been illegal in the NFL. After the Steve Hutchinson poison pill contract which he would have gotten his entire contract guaranteed if he played more than one game in Seattle his first year, the league frowned upon such deals.

I don't know what he would have done, but it was well known at the time that Martin was upset that Grier refused to negotiate a deal and that he bragged about it rubbing it in his face.

One fact that is pretty indisputable is that Grier mismanaged the Martin situation from not getting him locked up early to wasting the draft picks the Pats got in return for him. Parcells took the opportunity to take advantage of it, but I still blame Grier for mismanaging the whole situation which he pretty much did with every situation when it came to personnel during his tenure after Parcells left.

 

[Rob0729]

One thing that I never understood is the ridiculous notion that the Pats would have won as many Super Bowls without the great drafting Parcells gave us.

Belichick had some pretty talented players from Parcell's drafting all those years.

No Parcells = not as many SB titles...if even one.

Could we have won 3 SBs without guys like Bruschi,McGinest,Law,Milloy,Johnson,Troy Brown Ect:?....I can't see how anyone could say that with a straight face......Belichick may have coached them to the best of their ability but they were still on the team to get to that point.

And let's not forget without Parcells, Kraft may never had hired Belichick. Kraft hired Belichick because he was so impressed with him while he worked here as the Assistant Head Coach under Parcells in 1996. Without that experience, Kraft might have thought the same thing that most people thought he was - a great defensive coordinator who was in over his head as a head coach.

I don't like Parcells, but I do appreciate what he has done to this team. He brought legitimacy to the team and as you pointed out brought in the building blocks for the Super Bowl teams that Belichick took and crafted a Champion.

 

[Rob0729]

Miami was the hurdle Parcells was never able to fix....aside from a record turnaround and a division title over a 2008 Brady-less Pats team,he failed miserably as a GM,Miami is still a mediocre team at best Post-Marino

I don't think Parcells' heart was ever really into the Miami gig. That is why he became president and let others take over the GM and coaching duties. He even admits now he should have taken Matt Ryan over Jake Long. He has admitted that he went against his values to take Pat White eventhough he knew it was a very risky pick for a gimmick play. That move seemed like he was more concerned about looking like a genius if it worked out than the risk it was to take him and how they had many other needs.

Post Jets, I didn't get Parcells' career decision. You knew that it would end badly with the Cowboys and Jerry Jones stupidly chose Terrell Owens over Parcells. The Miami gig looked to be more for Parcells to keep busy and take a paycheck.

 

[Triumph]

Sorry, clearly a typo on my part which I missed. Anyone could see that I meant to say He WASN'T the reason. I guess I screwed up on that part, but it seems pretty clear by the entire post that I was not arguing that. I mean how can you be "the reason, but certainly a reason and a big one"?

The reason why Kraft bought the team seems clear as day. But some are blind.

If Orthein moved the team, Kraft would still own land and stadium basically worthless without a franchise.

 

[Rob0729]

The reason why Kraft bought the team seems clear as day. But some are blind.

If Orthein moved the team, Kraft would still own land and stadium basically worthless without a franchise.

Worthless?!? Acres and acres of land on a major road (RTE1) with a housing boom in effect in 1994? That land could have turned into upscale homes, retail center, amusement park, or whatever. The land was certainly not worthless without the Patriots. In fact at the time, spending on one or several of those options on the land would have been considered the safer and more profitable bet.

Why would Kraft consider moving the team to CT if he knew would make the land worthless? Kraft was already rumored to be talking with Six Flags and other companies to build an amusement park in the area if the team moved to CT.

The land had a lot of options if the Pats did move. Kraft saw that the team had the potential to be really popular in this state which would make paying to keep the team the better option and part of that has to do with what Parcells did when he got here.

To argue that Kraft's only options were to buy the Patriots or take a match to the place and collect the insurance money is a falicy. The land had lots of value whether the Pats stayed or not. In hindsight, he made the correct option to buy the team which ended up being a bargain. But at the time, a lot of smart business people would have been happy to let the Pats leave and develop that land into homes or retail or something else that could generate a lot of money.

 

[Triumph]

For those who dont know, the contract that Parcells signed with Curtis Martin is now illegal. After the deal went through, the NFL outlawed that type of poison pill.

Heres the deal.

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