Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[RayClay]

Let's deal with the facts - not fantasy - and recognize that Parcells was HERE

All right, me first. He was here and his team knew he was looking for work as they prepared for the Super Bowl.

Now you start.

 

[Ring 6]

All right, me first. He was here and his team knew he was looking for work as they prepared for the Super Bowl.

Now you start.

I'll play.
5-11
10-6
6-10
11-5

32-32 .500 record as coach.

Left behind a team that proceeded to go
10-6
9-7
8-8
5-11
and was named by PFW as the least likely team in the NFL to go to the SB before the roster BB rebuilt actually led them there.

 

[RayClay]

While I'm sure Kraft was happy that Parcellls was an asset of the team he bought, it was NOT a critical part of his decision.

Sure he was, that's why he installed Bobby Grier over him to make the picks. (or whatever the situation was).

This revisionist history is killing me. From everything we know about the Kraft Parcells relationship, Kraft would have paid his airfare out of town on most any day of his tenure.

 

[RayClay]

I'll play.
5-11
10-6
6-10
11-5

32-32 .500 record as coach.

Left behind a team that proceeded to go
10-6
9-7
8-8
5-11
and was named by PFW as the least likely team in the NFL to go to the SB before the roster BB rebuilt actually led them there.

Now I would give him more credit than raw stats, (previous bad record, picks) but still would rate Parcells, Berry or Fairbanks as a pickem for pats HOF.

Fairbanks maybe better on team building, Berry maybe underrated on calming a bad situation down, (Hannah, Gray, Hannah Meyer, Grogan Eason). The guy was weird, but he was anti drama in a franchise that had plenty of it.

And no retired coach should get in before Mike Holovak. That's where we're really talking about a guy without whom none of the rest of it might have happened, as in no existing franchise for Kraft to buy.

 

[townes]

Yes, Parcells belongs in the Patriots HOF but I would give it to Bledsoe over him if those are the three choices. Both changed the direction of the Patriots for the following two decades and both deserve credit for that. It was also Parcells who put Belichik in the Kraft's path and that hire led to where they are at now. I'm not a big Bledsoe fan but he achieved a great deal in NE and also deserves credit for those achievments.


Ultimately the Patriots are going to have to increase the number of selectees going in as their Dynasty teams are going to have so many that worthy players are going to be missing out. They may also have to go to a veterans committee that chooses the old time Patriots as they will lose out once the players from the 2000 teams start becoming eligible. Players and coaches from the pre 1980 era should really be voted on a by a large panel of former Patriot players and coaches, and possibly some older media.

 

[Ring 6]

Now I would give him more credit than raw stats, (previous bad record, picks) but still would rate Parcells, Berry or Fairbanks as a pickem for pats HOF.

Fairbanks maybe better on team building, Berry maybe underrated on calming a bad situation down, (Hannah, Gray, Hannah Meyer, Grogan Eason). The guy was weird, but he was anti drama in a franchise that had plenty of it.

Fairbanks turned around a PERNNIAL doormat. He made the team legit, and got it to the playoffs twice and bailed. There is very little difference in the tenures of Fairbanks and Parcells, except that IMO Fiarbanks brought them from further depths and Parcells teased with a SB appearance before abandoning his job while Fairbanks just won the division and abandoend for the entire playoffs.
Berry won more playoff games in 1985 than Fairbanks (0) and Parcells (2) did combined. The negative with Berry was while he turned a doormat very quickly into a SB team, the team steadily declined from there.
Each of the 3 made some positive contributions, but I don't see Hall of Fame worthy in any of their short and controversial (Fairbanks and Parcells due to loyalty issues and Berry due to player issues) tenures.

 

[RayClay]

I'd say there is a better than 50/50 chance the team would have folded without Holovak. With all the distractions Sullivan had (and he was a better football guy than given credit for) I can't imagine what destruction the fabulous Clive Rush regime would have done to a team that was as shaky on the field as it was in the courtroom/financial world.

So that's it, Holovak and Antwine and I'll shut up.

Maybe Bucko Kilroy too? Oh c'mon.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, Parcells belongs in the Patriots HOF but I would give it to Bledsoe over him if those are the three choices. Both changed the direction of the Patriots for the following two decades and both deserve credit for that. It was also Parcells who put Belichik in the Kraft's path and that hire led to where they are at now. I'm not a big Bledsoe fan but he achieved a great deal in NE and also deserves credit for those achievments.


Ultimately the Patriots are going to have to increase the number of selectees going in as their Dynasty teams are going to have so many that worthy players are going to be missing out. They may also have to go to a veterans committee that chooses the old time Patriots as they will lose out once the players from the 2000 teams start becoming eligible. Players and coaches from the pre 1980 era should really be voted on a by a large panel of former Patriot players and coaches, and possibly some older media.

Good point. Antwine was before my time, but compared to Parcells and Bledsoe, here is a quick list from the top of my head of people more deserving that Parcells and Bledsoe of being in a Patriot Hall of Fame, only counting those since.

BB
Kraft
Pioli
Brady
McGinest
Seymour
Law
Vrabel
Bruschi
Harrison
Light
Faulk
Brown
Woody
Wilfork
Warren
Scarnecchia
Weis

All of these guys contributed to the actual Championships that people are wishing to give Parcells and Bledsoe credit for.


So if we are going to put Parcells and Bledsoe in the Hall of Fame supposedly for 'starting' what these players, coaches and executives actually accomplished, its going to be very crowded in there.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd say there is a better than 50/50 chance the team would have folded without Holovak. With all the distractions Sullivan had (and he was a better football guy than given credit for) I can't imagine what destruction the fabulous Clive Rush regime would have done to a team that was as shaky on the field as it was in the courtroom/financial world.

So that's it, Holovak and Antwine and I'll shut up.

Maybe Bucko Kilroy too? Oh c'mon.

Bucko Kilroy and **** Steinberg both were very good at their jobs.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You are confusing the impact of a coach on winning with the impact who the coach is has to do with buying a team.
Your argument is that Parcells was the reason he bought the team, solely because you want that to be. Owners don't buy teams because of their record, they buy them in order to own them and RUN them.

I'm talking about the value that Parcells brought to the organization - as evidenced by the NFL unheard of record amount of $175 million for the franchise.

It didn't cost that much in spite of Parcells - it cost that much because of him as he was in place and already turning the organization around. That was clear to everyone at the time and is part of what made the $175 million investment of Bob Kraft such a wise business decision as well as a decision he made as a fan.

Trust me on this - Bob Kraft is a great Patriots fan - perhaps the greatest... but he's a businessman first, and he was very savvy about how he played his cards and knew it was a sound investment in Parcells, Bledsoe and the New England Patriots at that time.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, but I think most impartial NFL observers recognize the triumvirate of Parcells, Kraft and Bledsoe in what they meant to this organization at a time of much change and evolution in the NFL.

All three members of that triumvirate were critical to the New England Patriots we know today and all deserve to be in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

Period.

 

[lurker1965]

...

Parcells was {no the only}* THE REASON Kraft bought the team, but he was certainly A REASON and pretty big one at that.

...

Wait, do people actually believe if the coach was, say, Joe Palooka, Kraft does not buy the team?

Um, Kraft was supposedly scheming about buying the team when he bought the stadium as Kiam bought the team.



*My addition for clarity for morons like me who had to puzzle it out.

 

[reflexblue]

Parcells, No he wasn't here very long in the first place. Did the team win a SB? No. He was very good for the Pats, but putting him in the HOF i don't think so.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm talking about the value that Parcells brought to the organization - as evidenced by the NFL unheard of record amount of $175 million for the franchise.

Why is it unheardof? Why would you think the HC would even be a factor in that?

It didn't cost that much in spite of Parcells - it cost that much because of him as he was in place and already turning the organization around.

I didn't say in spite of, and the HC and whether the team is currently winning or not has little to do with the price paid for a franchise. Look it up.

That was clear to everyone at the time and is part of what made the $175 million investment of Bob Kraft such a wise business decision as well as a decision he made as a fan.

Saying 'it was clear to everyone' when everyone disagrees with you is a lousy argument.
As a business decision, who is HC means very little.

Trust me on this

A worse argument

Bob Kraft is a great Patriots fan - perhaps the greatest... but he's a businessman first, and he was very savvy about how he played his cards and knew it was a sound investment in Parcells, Bledsoe and the New England Patriots at that time.

He bought the team long term not for the coach or rookie QB.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, but I think most impartial NFL observers recognize the triumvirate of Parcells, Kraft and Bledsoe in what they meant to this organization at a time of much change and evolution in the NFL.

So lets say Parcells quit the day Kraft bought the team. So?
Kraft would have set out to build his franchise just the same.

All three members of that triumvirate were critical to the New England Patriots we know today and all deserve to be in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

Period.

No they were not. Parcells was a .500 coach who did a pretty good job coaching up some players.
Bledsoe was a stat-amassing QB who was at the position as the team became a contender, and as they declined from there.
If Parcells and Bledose were never here, and BB arrived in 2000, there would be little difference in what happened.
They did their jobs decently, after which the franchise began winning championships.

 

[lurker1965]

Although I can't quite fathom a twisted logic that implies that Parcells is on par with Zeke Mowatt and Benedict Arnold, you do need to consider that if not for Parcells you'd be debating who should be elected to the St. Louis Patriots Hall of Fame.

That counts for something with a lot of folks.

OK, I'll give you that the line from Zeke Mowatt and Kiam having to sell might not be obvious.

You see no parallel with Benedict Arnold? Really?

OK, Let's make it real easy for you.

Parcells was a great coach. Similarly Benedict Arnold was a great General.
Both were great.

Without Parcells the Patriots would still be a laughing stock. (Not proven, but I'll give you that.) Without Benedict Arnold, we lose the battle of Saratoga and the British and New England is cut off from the more calm colonies and the Revolution ends. (Again, not proven but let's give Arnold that.) Both Parcells and Arnold were vital.

Parcells was calling the Jets during the SB. Arnold tried to give up West Point and General Washington to the Jets-I mean British.

No honorific for Arnold. No honorific for the other traitor.

Kind've one of the prices for being a turncoat.

 

[Ring 6]

Parcells, No he wasn't here very long in the first place. Did the team win a SB? No. He was very good for the Pats, but putting him in the HOF i don't think so.

Exactly.
He came in at a time when the team was awful.
In 2 years he got them to a playoff berth and lost in round 1.
In 2 more he got them to a SB and spent the preparation time for that game searching for work.
Is it a good thing that he was here? Sure.
Is it HOF worthy? No.
Does he deserve credit for everything that came later, starting with 5 years after he left? Of course not.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm talking about the value that Parcells brought to the organization - as evidenced by the NFL unheard of record amount of $175 million for the franchise.

It didn't cost that much in spite of Parcells - it cost that much because of him as he was in place and already turning the organization around. That was clear to everyone at the time and is part of what made the $175 million investment of Bob Kraft such a wise business decision as well as a decision he made as a fan.

Trust me on this - Bob Kraft is a great Patriots fan - perhaps the greatest... but he's a businessman first, and he was very savvy about how he played his cards and knew it was a sound investment in Parcells, Bledsoe and the New England Patriots at that time.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, but I think most impartial NFL observers recognize the triumvirate of Parcells, Kraft and Bledsoe in what they meant to this organization at a time of much change and evolution in the NFL.

All three members of that triumvirate were critical to the New England Patriots we know today and all deserve to be in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

Period.

Considering that as of 2007, Forbes NFL Team Valuations - Forbes.com valued the cheapest NFL franchise at 728 million, it would seem that Robert Kraft's business decision to pay 175 mill 13 years earlier was a good one, and having a good coach, winning team, or rookie QB with promise would have absolutely zero impact on the business sense of that decision.
He could have run it into the ground and quadrupled his money in 13 years.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm talking about the value that Parcells brought to the organization - as evidenced by the NFL unheard of record amount of $175 million for the franchise.

Jeffrey Lurie paid 195 mill for the Eagles a few months later. Who was their HC?
Jerry Jones paid 140 mill for the Cowboys five years earlier and his first move was to fire Tom Landry.
The Glazers paid 192 mill for the woeful Bucs, arguably the worst franchise in the NFL a year after Kraft paid 175 mill for the Pats.

The only reason to call in 'unprecented' was because no team had sold in 5 years, as the values had dramatically increased. Its like saying my house sold for an unprecedented amount 5 years after I bought it during the housing boom.

See, your entire argument is full of holes.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Unfortunately for the Parcells Haters the "media, staff and alumni who meet each year to nominate the three former Patriots players or head coaches who they feel are most deserving of Hall of Fame induction" don't seem to agree with your assessment that Parcells is so undeserving of the HoF.

Should he get in this year or in the future, I'll look forward to hearing your recipes for crow.

 

[patfanken]

Unfortunately for the Parcells Haters the "media, staff and alumni who meet each year to nominate the three former Patriots players or head coaches who they feel are most deserving of Hall of Fame induction" don't seem to agree with your assessment that Parcells is so undeserving of the HoF.

Should he get in this year or in the future, I'll look forward to hearing your recipes for crow.

Like I said the media has a blind spot for Parcells. Of course he is going to get their vote. BTW I think the Benedict Arnold analogy was a great one and really apropos, Good job Lurker....you too Andy

 

[JoeSixPat]

Like I said the media has a blind spot for Parcells. Of course he is going to get their vote. BTW I think the Benedict Arnold analogy was a great one and really apropos, Good job Lurker....you too Andy

Yes... and apparently the Patriots staff and alumni have the same "blind spot" for nominating him.

Too bad they're just not as smart as anonymous message board posters.

Good job staff.... you too alumni