looking for a consensus

[supafly]

Wasn't DE / OLB as the top "need" the general consensus last year? And then we took a corner and an OLB that no one even talked about, while waiting until the 7th (?) to draft a defensive lineman.

Yes, it likely was, but we are now coming off of a year where it is crystal clear that we have a very good group here, just went 14-2, and have obvious weaknesses on 3rd down, and pressuring the QB. Way more than last year, in my opinion. These glaring issues need to be corrected, and added to us not moving further in the playoffs last year. Like someone else said, it's now about 'fine tuning,' as opposed to rebuilding, although I see some future front 7 prospects for possible yrs to come too.

Couple that with the drop in talent on the Dline towards the end of the year, lack of adequate depth (whatever you'd want to call it, it didn't get the job done well enough) and multiple injuries, and you not only have the same issue as last draft, you have it magnified even greater.

You also have the aspect that it is a draft stocked with these types of positions (DE/OLB), we have a plethora of picks, there is currently uncertainty regarding trading into next draft (as the NFL reminded every team today), and we still do not have an adequate RDE.

To me, it's almost a no-brainer, although I would not be shocked if BB saw it differently It was the overall consensus last yr, but all of these reasons listed make it even more of a consensus this year--if that answers your question

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I agree with most of what you say, however I cannot see any value to draft a QB in ANY round. First Brady gha minimum of 3 quality years left, maybe more, why draft a QB, especially in such a week class. At best he'll be sitting 3-4 years and then when he's ready to play- IF he is good enough, his contract will be ending. Right now we have a guy BB is comfortable with. If we think we need a 3rd option there will be plenty of vet FAs available, all of whom would be superior options to any draft pick.

2 years from now should be the time the Pats start thinking about drafting Brady's replacement

Every year is the year to draft Brady's replacement. NE did that in 2005, it worked out okay. NE needs camp arms at minimum, so why not grab a kid who appears to be more if you have the chance, you really don't know when you'll need him.

 

[patchick]

IIRC, wasn't Mankins a full time OT at Fresno State. He seemed to "slide down" without any problems.

Oh, absolutely. Most of my top OG candidates were college LTs. My issue was with the suggested plan to draft a guy who's a natural NFL tackle to "slide inside for a year or so," then make him a long-term tackle.

 

[patchick]

The Patriots haven't had a veteran FA who could realistically compete elsewhere for a starting job since Damon Huard.

Since then, Brady's backups have either been rookies brought up in the system (Cassel, Hoyer) or QBs on the 17th hole (Flutie, Testaverde).

I think the Patriots, with Brady, and the Colts, with Manning, have basically the same problem in that regard: Brady and Manning are so good that no other QB even has a chance to compete for the starting job. So why would a vet sign in Foxboro when they could get the same (or better!) money and a better chance of competing for the starting job elsewhere?

I think this is a really important point. When you have a perennial Pro Bowl QB, you automatically get the dregs of the FA quarterback pool.

I'd also say that Pats fans have gotten so accustomed to carrying just 2 QBs that we forget how non-standard and risky that is. Plus, as happy as we all are with the development of Hoyer, can you really say that you've seen enough to feel confident that he can't be improved on as a backup?

And finally, developing late-round QBs is just good value.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

Simple enough. Here is what I want to see if we use all our picks:

1A. DE- We need the next Seymour here.
1B. OLB- I dont think explanation is necessary here
2A. OT- Best available tackle get him. Light is an FA and given CBA get insurance.
2B. OG/OC- Building the trenches is key and we have a need here.
3A. RB- Breakout speed needed here.
3B. S- Meriweather insurance.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

So in not particular order, when the 3rd round is order here is what I'd be happy to see the Pats wind up with,

1, A premuim DE - a guy who can get penetration and big enough to hold up against the run
2. An outside edge rusher - Maybe not one of the top 3 but someone who gets me more excited than I was when Cunningham came off the board last season.
3. An OLman- OT interior, it doesn't matter. Just someone good to have the capability to start right out of the box' Not that they necessarily have to, but they could if we get the pick right.

In my mind those are the 3 things we need to have at the top of the draft. After that the next three can be any of the following

A running back or WR Not BOTH
A. DB
ANOTHER DL/OLB/OLman

What your asking is very difficult for us average fans to predict, because in past BB drafts he has drafted for value not need.

Does that change this year because in years past BB could load up on mid level FA's to fill in roster holes and then use the draft for Patriot type players.

Impossible to know at this point. But what I know is the following:

1.) This draft is very deep in the D Line, and has several 3-4 type DE"s to chose from.
2.) We can scream OLB and pass rush all day, BB is not listening.
3.) No matter how many DB's he drafts, there is always room on the roster for another.
4.) Flexibility and versatility supported by production trump workout numbers.
5.) Plenty of Patriot type O linemen available on day three of this draft.


I myself would love to see us draft 2 D Linemen in round 1, after that everything is gravy.

 

[townes]

I'd like to see them go DL/OLB/OL with the first 3 picks, with Taylor, Kerrigan, and Sherrod as the 3 I would favor. I think Sherrod could still be there at #33 and I see Taylor rising to the point where he may not be available at #17 and Kerrigan dropping to where they could get him at #28.

I think Taylor is going to be the guy who shoots up boards as the draft draws nearer and he could end up in the top 10 when all is said and done.

 

[patchick]

I'd like to see them go DL/OLB/OL with the first 3 picks, with Taylor, Kerrigan, and Sherrod as the 3 I would favor. I think Sherrod could still be there at #33 and I see Taylor rising to the point where he may not be available at #17 and Kerrigan dropping to where they could get him at #28.

I think Taylor is going to be the guy who shoots up boards as the draft draws nearer and he could end up in the top 10 when all is said and done.

I'm totally with you, except for Taylor. He may well go early, but after last year's captain-stuffed draft class I can't picture the Patriots making a player with a poor work ethic & history of assaults who doesn't take kindly to hard coaching the face of 2011.

There's also the question of marginal value. If you take Taylor you're presumably moving your perennial Pro Bowl NT out to DE in the base defense. Is that really going to leave you in better shape than drafting a DE and leaving Wilfork at his natural position?

 

[NewFeep]

Simple enough. Here is what I want to see if we use all our picks:

1A. DE- We need the next Seymour here.
1B. OLB- I dont think explanation is necessary here
2A. OT- Best available tackle get him. Light is an FA and given CBA get insurance.
2B. OG/OC- Building the trenches is key and we have a need here.
3A. RB- Breakout speed needed here.
3B. S- Meriweather insurance.

This sums it up nicely. If we draft in this order I think almost everyone that posts here would be thrilled.... But I will speak only for myself. I would be thrilled.

 

[Off The Grid]

If you take Taylor you're presumably moving your perennial Pro Bowl NT out to DE in the base defense. Is that really going to leave you in better shape than drafting a DE and leaving Wilfork at his natural position?

Actually, if we drafted Phil Taylor, it would almost certainly be him that moved to End, not Vince Wilfork.

 

[townes]

I'm totally with you, except for Taylor. He may well go early, but after last year's captain-stuffed draft class I can't picture the Patriots making a player with a poor work ethic & history of assaults who doesn't take kindly to hard coaching the face of 2011.

There's also the question of marginal value. If you take Taylor you're presumably moving your perennial Pro Bowl NT out to DE in the base defense. Is that really going to leave you in better shape than drafting a DE and leaving Wilfork at his natural position?

I think you are being too hard on Taylor especially given the reports he has totally turned it around. I agree completely that the Patriots should continue to draft players who have good work ethic and love football but feel taylor could turn out to be one of those guys, especially with the veteran leadership around him on that D Line. I think what the Patriots really want in their DL are guys who can play multiple positions and see both Taylor and Wilfork.

As fans we really have no way of knowing who these prospects really are as people and while i agree with you that understanding that is critical to the choices made on draft day I would defer to the Patriots when making the picks because they have the inside information and insight that allows them to really have a good idea of what a prospect is made of and whether or not they will work hard to become really good pro's. If they determine taylor is a slacker then I wouldn't want him either, but if they see him as a guy who made mistakes when he was still a kid but has turned it around and is focused on becoming a really good player then i see him as having one of the highest upsides of anyone in this class.

People forget that Wilfork dropped right before the draft for many of the same reasons being cited about taylor, and he certainly turned out just fine.

 

[dryheat44]

Simple enough. Here is what I want to see if we use all our picks:

1A. DE- We need the next Seymour here.
1B. OLB- I dont think explanation is necessary here
2A. OT- Best available tackle get him. Light is an FA and given CBA get insurance.
2B. OG/OC- Building the trenches is key and we have a need here.
3A. RB- Breakout speed needed here.
3B. S- Meriweather insurance.

I really don't like the idea of dedicating a particular pick to the best available of a particular position. We might end up with something like Heyward, Reed, Pinkston, Hudson, Todman, Sash. I don't think anybody would much like that.

 

[townes]

I really don't like the idea of dedicating a particular pick to the best available of a particular position. We might end up with something like Heyward, Reed, Pinkston, Hudson, Todman, Sash. I don't think anybody would much like that.

Agree completely. Need is always a driving consideration but getting the right players at those positions is the key, if they are gone you don't simply take the next guy you measure them against other prospects still available and look at the overall draft to determine whether there are other opportunities to address specific needs as it goes on. I think there is a general consensus on this board and among Patriot fans as to what their needs are but how they address them and who we like most as players differs.

 

[patchick]

I think you are being too hard on Taylor especially given the reports he has totally turned it around.

I genuinely haven't heard that -- all I'd heard is rumblings that he finally bothered working once $$ was on the line. I'd be very interested in links to better info.

 

[townes]

I genuinely haven't heard that -- all I'd heard is rumblings that he finally bothered working once $$ was on the line. I'd be very interested in links to better info.

Patchick, I'll try to go copy it but I am having some computer problems so if I don't post it you can see the comments at the Walter Football Mock that has Pioli and the Chef's taking Taylor at #21. According to them Taylor has been really impressive at all the pre draft events and has "completely turned his life around."

Many here have commented that NE needs another "Seymour," and he was a physical freak, as is Wilfork and of the DL prospects Taylor fits that description more than any other player. If the reports are accurate I would move him way up my list and would take him over pretty much anyone else likely to be available there. I don't think he will make it past 20 and he may even move so high they have no shot at him.





Here it is:

Kansas City Chiefs: Phil Taylor, NT, Baylor
Scott Pioli needs his Vince Wilfork. The Chiefs struggled against the run late in the year because they had nothing at the nose tackle position. Phil Taylor would remedy that issue.

After a strong showing at the Senior Bowl, Taylor continued to impress at the Combine and his Pro Day. He lost some more weight (334) and despite his massive frame, he ran a 5.18. Taylor has completely turned his life around, so despite his altercations three years ago at Penn State, I believe that Pioli will strongly consider him at No. 21.

 

[mgteich]

While I agree, I believe that there is an overwhelming match of need and value at DE between 10 and 18 of the first round. As in 2003, I see Belichick watching carefully and trading up if he needs to in order to get one of the top DE's.

If Belichick drafts Heyward or Wilkerson (perhaps with a small trade down), it is because he view them as top DE's.

My BOTTOM LINE is that I do not see anything wrong with focusing 90% on DE with our first pick.

Of course, Belichick will focus on value, trading up or down as necessary. He may even trade way down if the deal is good enough. But then, I would see him moving up from 28 or 33 into the low 20's to get to get a DE.

I really don't like the idea of dedicating a particular pick to the best available of a particular position. We might end up with something like Heyward, Reed, Pinkston, Hudson, Todman, Sash. I don't think anybody would much like that.

 

[dryheat44]

While I agree, I believe that there is an overwhelming match of need and value at DE between 10 and 18 of the first round. As in 2003, I see Belichick watching carefully and trading up if he needs to in order to get one of the top DE's.

If Belichick drafts Heyward or Wilkerson (perhaps with a small trade down), it is because he view them as top DE's.

My BOTTOM LINE is that I do not see anything wrong with focusing 90% on DE with our first pick.

Of course, Belichick will focus on value, trading up or down as necessary. He may even trade way down if the deal is good enough. But then, I would see him moving up from 28 or 33 into the low 20's to get to get a DE.

No, there's nothing wrong with focusing intently on DEs at #17...odds are that will be the pick. HOWEVER....

If BB values a guy like Castonzo as a 8.5 and Wilkerson as a 7.0, he'll likely use #17 on Castonzo. Or try to trade up to a position where he can get a DE he rates an 8.0.

Actually, the more I think about it, maybe we should trade all of our picks to get Dareus and Miller. Use the eventual FA period to fill in the rest. I may try to mock that out.

/ only half-facetiousness

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Kansas City Chiefs: Phil Taylor, NT, Baylor
Scott Pioli needs his Vince Wilfork. The Chiefs struggled against the run late in the year because they had nothing at the nose tackle position. Phil Taylor would remedy that issue.

After a strong showing at the Senior Bowl, Taylor continued to impress at the Combine and his Pro Day. He lost some more weight (334) and despite his massive frame, he ran a 5.18. Taylor has completely turned his life around, so despite his altercations three years ago at Penn State, I believe that Pioli will strongly consider him at No. 21.

As with patchick, this is the first commentary claiming Taylor had turned his life around I've read. All prior reporting has discussed positive steps he has taken, while questioning the time line of those changes when measured against the proximity of an NFL contract. I note this commentary is not linked to anything KC said, but appears to be that of the lads at Walter Football, thus questionable.

My own assessment: while he has talent, he is horribly inconsistent. I don't expect NE to be very interested in round one. The troubled past which intrigues me, Kendrick Ellis. I think he can bring everything Taylor has, with a better self improvement time line, more consistency, and projected second round value.

 

[townes]

As with patchick, this is the first commentary claiming Taylor had turned his life around I've read. All prior reporting has discussed positive steps he has taken, while questioning the time line of those changes when measured against the proximity of an NFL contract. I note this commentary is not linked to anything KC said, but appears to be that of the lads at Walter Football, thus questionable.

My own assessment: while he has talent, he is horribly inconsistent. I don't expect NE to be very interested in round one. The troubled past which intrigues me, Kendrick Ellis. I think he can bring everything Taylor has, with a better self improvement time line, more consistency, and projected second round value.

Obviously I would like to see them take Taylor but overall there isn't much disagreement and if they liked Ellis more I would trust that because they have the best information and all we get are evaluations and summaries that are at best done from a distance. The bottom line is that we don't have access to their draft board and as such have absolutely no way of knowing how they have the prospects ranked, and the generic rankings and mocks seem to have little in common with the way the Patriots have their board stacked, which inevitably leads to massive frustration for Patriots fans come draft day, and neverending criticism of their drafts despite the fact that they are one of the best teams in football at amassing talent and staying at the top of the league. If they sucked at it, as the most negative Patriot fans like to claim then they would have dropped back to the pack long ago.

 

[townes]

As with patchick, this is the first commentary claiming Taylor had turned his life around I've read. All prior reporting has discussed positive steps he has taken, while questioning the time line of those changes when measured against the proximity of an NFL contract. I note this commentary is not linked to anything KC said, but appears to be that of the lads at Walter Football, thus questionable.

My own assessment: while he has talent, he is horribly inconsistent. I don't expect NE to be very interested in round one. The troubled past which intrigues me, Kendrick Ellis. I think he can bring everything Taylor has, with a better self improvement time line, more consistency, and projected second round value.

I think Taylor is going to be the big late riser in this draft and believe he will be gone after #20, he may even move to the top ten imo.