Rotoworld MocK: OL, DE for the Pats in Round 1

[DaBruinz]

I agree Jack. Over rated. Not a great work ethic as well. Probably mediocre at best.

I can't see Sherrod either. Are you kidding? Finesse only OT. We need to get tougher, not the other way especially if Mankins goes bye, bye. What are you guys thinking?
DW Toys

DW pulling sh!t out of his arse again.

Please show me where you get that Sherrod is a "FINESSE" OT?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Just think. If we do draft Wilkerson there would be 3 W's on the defensive front. Warren,Wilfork and Wilkerson. WWW .DEFENSE. COM. It would be fun to play around with the possibilities.

oops..its a real link

 

[Coach42]

DW pulling sh!t out of his arse again.

Please show me where you get that Sherrod is a "FINESSE" OT?

He didn't make it up.

“Sherrod does offer the kind of athleticism and size to fight and win a left tackle spot with some time and development. He might be better suited to play as a right tackle in more of a finesse scheme, but he does have the skill set to certainly intrigue early in the draft and if he’s willing to put in the work, the guy could mature into a dependable starter on either side for an NFL team.”

Wes Bunting

 

[larryo]

If he's finesse then we need to draft the right side of that line. Didn't they rank 9th nationally in rushing? Going against those SEC defenses. When they know you are going to run.

 

[IllegalContact]

Pouncey is a nice pick.

Wilson?? Why another ILB?

As others have mentioned, it's unlikely that Wilkerson lasts until the 3rd round. If we didn't need someone to step in at RDE immediately, I'd say he'd be a good pick.

Wright and Reed?? Seriously?? You do realize that the Pats don't have room to draft 3 LBers, yes? And none of them is a clear upgrade over what's currently on the Pats roster.

Wilson is projecting to the outside in the NFL. He has pass rush skills also.

As for wright and reed, they have plenty of room for them......just dump woods and Moore, and yes they are a clear upgrade over anyone not named Cunningham. Both are better tacklers and support the run better, and wright is already very effective in coverage.

Besides cunningham, the rest of the OLBs are a waste of time.

 

[IllegalContact]

DW pulling sh!t out of his arse again.

Please show me where you get that Sherrod is a "FINESSE" OT?

He's not a first rounder because of his brute strength, that's for sure. The best thing he's got going is quick feet. But he will need a lot of work for strength

 

[Water Boy]

This is all well to say based purely on size/heft, but that fact is that Brace, Love and G. Warren weren't able to "stuff" anything this past season. Wilfork literally did 54% of the work of the best three. Getting Ty Warren back should help, IF he's able to return to form, but ti seems likely that we'll still need to commit extra resources to stopping the run again next season unless we get Wilfork another REAL run-stuffing bookend rather than a guy who just looks the part.

The Patriots were 11th in rushing yards allowed at 108 yards per game. Not bad at all IMO considering the injuries to Warren, Brace and Wright.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wilson is projecting to the outside in the NFL. He has pass rush skills also. WIlson is projecting as a 4-3 OLB and 3-4 ILB. I would how you understand the difference.

As for wright and reed, they have plenty of room for them......just dump woods and Moore, and yes they are a clear upgrade over anyone not named Cunningham. Both are better tacklers and support the run better, and wright is already very effective in coverage.

Woods isn't on the Roster and hasn't been for some time. Are you sure you follow the Patriots?? As for your assessments, that is BS. You can't know that unless they've played in the NFL.

Besides cunningham, the rest of the OLBs are a waste of time.

Ninkovich is a waste of time?? WOW.. Thanks for enlightening everyone. Guy was only the BEST OLB the Pats had last year.

 

[DaBruinz]

He's not a first rounder because of his brute strength, that's for sure. The best thing he's got going is quick feet. But he will need a lot of work for strength

Sherrod isn't Flozell Adams, but he's also not John St. Clair either.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ninkovich is a waste of time?? WOW.. Thanks for enlightening everyone. Guy was only the BEST OLB the Pats had last year.

Cunningham was the team's only 3 down OLB for a portion of the season, and both Cunningham and TBC took more snaps. How does that demonstrate that Ninkovich was the best of the lot?

OLB/DE Tully Banta-Cain -- 734 of 1,101 (66.7 percent)
OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham -- 560 of 1,101 (50.9 percent)
OLB/DE Rob Ninkovich -- 518 of 1,101 (47.0 percent)

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4691199/2010-patriots-defensive-snap-count

What would have been BB's purpose in keeping his best OLB on the sidelines more than the pass rush specialist and the rookie?

 

[DaBruinz]

Cunningham was the team's only 3 down OLB for a portion of the season, and both Cunningham and TBC took more snaps. How does that demonstrate that Ninkovich was the best of the lot?

OLB/DE Tully Banta-Cain -- 734 of 1,101 (66.7 percent)
OLB/DE Jermaine Cunningham -- 560 of 1,101 (50.9 percent)
OLB/DE Rob Ninkovich -- 518 of 1,101 (47.0 percent)

2010 Patriots defensive snap count - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

What would have been BB's purpose in keeping his best OLB on the sidelines more than the pass rush specialist and the rookie?

Wow. I would have thought that you, more than most, would know that snap count is hardly the be all/end all when it comes to the talent of a player.

Ninkovich is better at setting the edge than either TBC or Cunningham. Ninkovich is also better in coverage than either TBC or Cunningham. Where Ninkovich isn't as good is rushing the passer. Which he wasn't called upon to do, much of. And, since the Pats were in their Nickel package more than their base 3-4, that takes Ninkovich off the field. When the Pats were running their 2-4-5 Nickle, they put Cunningham and TBC on the field much of the time. When they ran the 3-3-5, Guyton was on the field as an OLB with Moore rushing the passer either with his hand down or from a 2 point stance.

Cunningham has the potential to move ahead of Ninkovich in terms of over-all impact. But as many noted, TBC wasn't worth much on the field and many feel that his days as a Pat are done.

Oh.. Since you love stats so much.. Lets look at this:

TBC - 36 Solo, 9 ast, 5 sacks, 2 TFL, 1 FF
Cunningham - 27 solo, 7 ast, 1 sack, 5 TFL, 1 PD, 2FF
Ninkovich - 45 solo, 17 ast, 4 sacks, 4 TFL, 4 PD, 2 INT, 3 Fumble recovries.

So, less plays but more production. I know what that tells me.

 

[MaineMan]

Wow. I would have thought that you, more than most, would know that snap count is hardly the be all/end all when it comes to the talent of a player.

Ninkovich is better at setting the edge than either TBC or Cunningham. Ninkovich is also better in coverage than either TBC or Cunningham. Where Ninkovich isn't as good is rushing the passer. Which he wasn't called upon to do, much of. And, since the Pats were in their Nickel package more than their base 3-4, that takes Ninkovich off the field. When the Pats were running their 2-4-5 Nickle, they put Cunningham and TBC on the field much of the time. When they ran the 3-3-5, Guyton was on the field as an OLB with Moore rushing the passer either with his hand down or from a 2 point stance.

Cunningham has the potential to move ahead of Ninkovich in terms of over-all impact. But as many noted, TBC wasn't worth much on the field and many feel that his days as a Pat are done.

Oh.. Since you love stats so much.. Lets look at this:

TBC - 36 Solo, 9 ast, 5 sacks, 2 TFL, 1 FF
Cunningham - 27 solo, 7 ast, 1 sack, 5 TFL, 1 PD, 2FF
Ninkovich - 45 solo, 17 ast, 4 sacks, 4 TFL, 4 PD, 2 INT, 3 Fumble recovries.

So, less plays but more production. I know what that tells me.

Though it doesn't alter your point at all, I think that 7 of Ninkovich's 45 solos were on special teams coverage, so 38/17 on tackles from scrimmage. TBC and Cunningham had no ST tackles, AFAIK.

My feeling is that, if the tackle production of the 3-4 D-line improves next season with the return of Ty Warren and the addition of another good DE, we'll see far fewer 40-front sub-packages and Ninkovich probably sees more snaps and bites on play-action far less often.

Of course, Ninkovich's 2011 stat line could read:
55/25, 4.5 sacks, 6 TFL, 6PD, 1 INT, 2 FF, 1 FR (about the same as Vrabel's 2002 numbers)
.... and a handful of people will note his consistency and improvement while most will continue to complain that he shouldn't even be on the roster, much less starting.

 

[IllegalContact]

Ninkovich is a waste of time?? WOW.. Thanks for enlightening everyone. Guy was only the BEST OLB the Pats had last year.

he is as a starting OLB.......in the past, this guy would have been behind matt chatham

the OLB position continues to be the achilles heel of this defense and the least talented position on the entire roster. just as obvious is the lack of resources desired to be contributed to the position. its almost like BB doesn't want good OLB's. it is still by far the worst 3-4 OLB group in the NFL

 

[IllegalContact]

WIlson is projecting as a 4-3 OLB and 3-4 ILB. I would how you understand the difference.

maybe where you read about him......I guess everything you read as well as all your conclusions are correct and everyone elses are wrong.


Woods isn't on the Roster and hasn't been for some time. Are you sure you follow the Patriots?? As for your assessments, that is BS. You can't know that unless they've played in the NFL.

he managed to find his way onto the roster for weeks 11 and 12 last year.....

whats with your rage and the need to try to demean others? you sound just as stupid as anyone else here. your assessments are just as much BS as anyone elses.

I've seen the current roster play in the NFL, and maybe outside of cunningham, none of these guys would have made the team 5 years ago.

 

[bucky]

Wow. I would have thought that you, more than most, would know that snap count is hardly the be all/end all when it comes to the talent of a player.

Ninkovich is better at setting the edge than either TBC or Cunningham. Ninkovich is also better in coverage than either TBC or Cunningham. Where Ninkovich isn't as good is rushing the passer. Which he wasn't called upon to do, much of. And, since the Pats were in their Nickel package more than their base 3-4, that takes Ninkovich off the field. When the Pats were running their 2-4-5 Nickle, they put Cunningham and TBC on the field much of the time. When they ran the 3-3-5, Guyton was on the field as an OLB with Moore rushing the passer either with his hand down or from a 2 point stance.

Cunningham has the potential to move ahead of Ninkovich in terms of over-all impact. But as many noted, TBC wasn't worth much on the field and many feel that his days as a Pat are done.

Oh.. Since you love stats so much.. Lets look at this:

TBC - 36 Solo, 9 ast, 5 sacks, 2 TFL, 1 FF
Cunningham - 27 solo, 7 ast, 1 sack, 5 TFL, 1 PD, 2FF
Ninkovich - 45 solo, 17 ast, 4 sacks, 4 TFL, 4 PD, 2 INT, 3 Fumble recovries.

So, less plays but more production. I know what that tells me.

Here's how I would rate the 3. The problem is that all 3 guys have major holes to their game:

Set the edge:
1) Cunningham
2) Nink
3) TBC

Zone coverage:
1) Nink
2) TBC/Cunningham - both suck

Man Coverage:
1) TBC - best of the bunch, but not saying much
2) Nink/Cunningham - both suck

Tackling (especially in space):
1) Cunningham
2) TBC
3) Nink

Pass Rushing (hand on the ground - DL style)
1) TBC
2) Cunningham
3) Nink

Blitzing
1) Nink
2) TBC
3) Cunningham

Summary:
Nink - would be a decent 1st and 2nd down LB if tacking was better.
TBC - backup OLB, occasional pass rusher
Cunningham - not great at anything, but potential to develop into a solid 3-down OLB.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow. I would have thought that you, more than most, would know that snap count is hardly the be all/end all when it comes to the talent of a player.

Ninkovich is better at setting the edge than either TBC or Cunningham. Ninkovich is also better in coverage than either TBC or Cunningham. Where Ninkovich isn't as good is rushing the passer. Which he wasn't called upon to do, much of. And, since the Pats were in their Nickel package more than their base 3-4, that takes Ninkovich off the field. When the Pats were running their 2-4-5 Nickle, they put Cunningham and TBC on the field much of the time. When they ran the 3-3-5, Guyton was on the field as an OLB with Moore rushing the passer either with his hand down or from a 2 point stance.

Cunningham has the potential to move ahead of Ninkovich in terms of over-all impact. But as many noted, TBC wasn't worth much on the field and many feel that his days as a Pat are done.

Oh.. Since you love stats so much.. Lets look at this:

TBC - 36 Solo, 9 ast, 5 sacks, 2 TFL, 1 FF
Cunningham - 27 solo, 7 ast, 1 sack, 5 TFL, 1 PD, 2FF
Ninkovich - 45 solo, 17 ast, 4 sacks, 4 TFL, 4 PD, 2 INT, 3 Fumble recovries.

So, less plays but more production. I know what that tells me.

You're tossing out your opinion. That's fine. I was noting that the Patriots don't seem to agree with you. Cunningham became a 3 down player. He's clearly ahead of Ninkovich, although his injury slowed him at the end of the year. TBC lost time over the course of the season, but he still led all OLBs in snaps taken, he's clearly the better pass rusher of the two, and his 66.7% of the snaps worth of playing time is far more than the sub package percentage. Your argument really comes down to Ninkovich v. TBC, not that Ninkovich is the team's best OLB, because that award has pretty clearly gone to Cunningham. And your argument runs counter to what the Patriots use of the linebackers would seem to be telling us.

That's how weak the team's OLBs were. The rookie who started late and couldn't quite get to the QB was still the team's best OLB.

 

[VJCPatriot]

That's how weak the team's OLBs were. The rookie who started late and couldn't quite get to the QB was still the team's best OLB.

I think we will continue to see solid improvement from Cunningham. He's just a rookie and needs to improve on his strength and understanding of the Patriots scheme. Once he gets that down and can play on instincts, I think we will see a very good OLB who is a 3 down player.

More 3 down players means less subpackages and more unpredictability imo. I see a DE in the 1st round and probably a 2nd/3rd round pick on a Cunningham type, 3 down OLB. Yeah that doesn't sound exciting but if we get a Cunningham clone and a Seymour replacement that should be more than good enough to get this defense back to dominance.

 

[MaineMan]

You're tossing out your opinion. That's fine. I was noting that the Patriots don't seem to agree with you. Cunningham became a 3 down player. He's clearly ahead of Ninkovich, although his injury slowed him at the end of the year. TBC lost time over the course of the season, but he still led all OLBs in snaps taken, he's clearly the better pass rusher of the two, and his 66.7% of the snaps worth of playing time is far more than the sub package percentage. Your argument really comes down to Ninkovich v. TBC, not that Ninkovich is the team's best OLB, because that award has pretty clearly gone to Cunningham. And your argument runs counter to what the Patriots use of the linebackers would seem to be telling us.

That's how weak the team's OLBs were. The rookie who started late and couldn't quite get to the QB was still the team's best OLB.

Seems to me that TBC's full-season snap % is a bit misleading. Early in the season, TBC was getting a lot of snaps because he was starting in the base D over Cunningham while Cunningham was being eased in - and the Pats weren't playing in sub-packages quite as much (around 40%, IIRC). After a few games, Cunningham started seeing considerably more snaps than TBC to the extent that people on Reiss' blog were speculating that TBC was in BB's doghouse for some reason. Through that period, Ninkovich was seeing most of the early game/down snaps and coming off in certain (but not all) sub-packages, which the Pats weren't using as much as they did later.

As the season progressed and injuries began to take a toll, sub-packages featuring TBC began to dominate the snap count. The Pats ended the season with 50%+ of snaps in sub-packages. Considering the early-season percentage, it seems reasonable to conclude that sub-packages were used nearly all the time later in the season - limiting Ninkovich's snaps. Cunningham stayed in for numerous sub-packages, presumably for his hypothetically better pass rush. To be fair, Moore was quick to credit his sacks to Cunningham's pressure coming from the opposite side.

The point being that full-season snap counts taken out of the context of the arc/progression of the season doesn't tell the whole story and it's probably not accurate to use those numbers in isolation to indict certain players or to "promote" others.

Frankly, I though Ninkovich played very well (though not flawlessly, of course) when he was on the field. Had the D-line held up better, he probably would have seen a lot more snaps. That he was taken off in sub-packages, I think, reflect more on what the Pats were trying to do to compensate for poor D-line play and that other guys worked into that tactically a bit better and not necessarily on what they thought of Ninkovich.

 

[Deus Irae]

...The point being that full-season snap counts taken out of the context of the arc/progression of the season doesn't tell the whole story and it's probably not accurate to use those numbers in isolation to indict certain players or to "promote" others...

Actually, they tell the tale pretty well. You can look to the individual game snaps totals to break it down even further. Reiss has those as well.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

1a - OT solder
1b - RB leshoure
2a - OG mike pouncey
2b - LB martez wilson
3a - DL mohammed wilkerson
3b - LB KJ wright
4 - LB brooks reed
5 - DL jarvis jenkins

Pretty much 0% chance that Pats will draft with ALL 8 picks in first 5 rd's. Also next to 0% chance we use both #1 picks. Either #17 or #28 will be spun off into 2012 pick(s)

At max there are 4 spots for rookies on this team, plus 2-3 FA's.