Tully Banta-Cain

[cstjohn17]

I happened to start focusing on Banta-Cain as I watched the game again from DVR.

I was completely taken aback. It looked like he was doing nothing more than going through the motions. On every run near him he simply engaged with the offensive blocker and stayed with him - no attempt whatsoever to stay off of the blocker or break loose to be free to go after the runner. Really kind of weird. On pass plays, he'd hit his offensive blocker and then just not have any particular energy or fight. A couple times the offensive blocker just pushed him to the ground with one arm. If he tried any kind of a move to slide off of his blocker, he then just seemed to give up going anywhere. One time he had an unabated line on a little delayed run and he was SLOW. He didn't even get within three strides of the runner. No pursuit whatsoever - at MOST a little jogging after the play !!

Boy. I can't see how they can leave him in as a starter. The rawest rookie couldn't do worse because Banta-Cain did nothing and was not even trying with any energy whatsoever. Incredible.

TBC is a decent 3rd option at OLB, as a #1 he is about the worst starter in the NFL.

 

[spacecrime]

Yeah, but he had no 5 second highlight clips.That's what this discussion is coming down to. The heck with this blue-collar do-your-job-in-anonyminity stuff. Where's the sizzle?

I just got done explaining this to a 12 year old tonight who plays CB on my son's team. When your job is to contain you have to take on that block straight up on run plays. You can't side step it, your job is not to shed the block and make the tackle, it is to set the edge and turn the runner back inside. If by chance you are stronger than the blocker and you can shed him and make the play, well that is great-but not the responsibilty. TBC's #1 responsibility is to direct the runner back inside.

When an OLB in the NFL or a CB in youth football (essentially the same position) picks a side in order to "stay off the block" they block themselves. In other words they did the blockers job for them. A 2nd level blocker will take the defender where ever he wants to go, it is the runners job to read the block and cut accordingly.

So when you see him just being lazy and taking a block he is actually doing his job!

With that said...if he is getting blown out by the blocker then obviously that is not good. But if he holds the point, but is square on his blocker then once again he is doing his job.

And on pass plays you have no idea what his responsibilities are, he could be a rusher or he could have the flat. Without the assignment you cannot gauge his level of success.

 

[pdangle]

I know it's early, and maybe he's even hurt, but TBC hasn't impressed me. Obviously he's dropping in the depth chart as well.

Isn't the power of the contract year motivation to the pro athlete simply incredible?!? I mean WTF? Anyone ever seen a study done on this anywhere?

Anywho... Just my 2c, hope he turns it around.

 

[Horace's Ivories]

Kudos to OP - looks like you were spot on...

 

[DaBruinz]

Kudos to OP - looks like you were spot on...

He was spot on if you're blind and can't tell a ho from a hoe.

 

[Horace's Ivories]

He was spot on if you're blind and can't tell a ho from a hoe.

oh right - i'm sorry - TBC's been tearing it up - big reason for the improved D-:bricks:

 

[DaBruinz]

Indeed, I guess we must have been watching the plays differently. However, one might suspect that the coaches were seeing more of what I was seeing. Cunningham is now starting and in the last 2 games he's taken 53 of 69 and 59 of 77 defensive snaps. And, of course, he's a first year rookie.

Being a first year rookie doesn't mean a damn thing. Secondly, Cunningham has been playing both LOLB and ROLB. You'd know this if you watched the games.

You started this weeks ago and now you bump it because you think you've been proven correct.. Though you haven't. You make that leap without knowing a damn thing about the situation. You haven't a clue what has gone on during practice or during the film study/game planning. Yet, you feel like you can just pull an assumption out of your arse and not have people question it's validity.

I haven't a clue why you think that letting runners through to force the safeties to make the tackles is good defensive football on the part of the LB. Of course 7 of Chung's tackles were on pass plays. And my comment on safeties having to tackle - on run plays to Banta-Cain's side where Chung made the solo tackles, the run gains were 6, 10, 9, 3 and 9. Hard to stop a running game that way, heh.

Finally, something you have correct about. You don't have a clue. You clearly don't understand what it means for an OLB to set the edge on a running play. That means that the OLB is acting like a D-lineman and engaged with either an O-lineman (pulling guard, OT) or a TE. His job is to control the C/D Gaps and force the runner to try and cut back to the A/B games. Hence, going back INSIDE where there are more defensive players. It's not " letting runners through to force safeties to make the tackles". That is something you pulled out of your arse.

As is typical of someone who doesn't want his "facts" challenged, you just spout numbers. You don't actually tell when the plays occurred. So no one can go back and review them.

 

[DaBruinz]

Good Job, you got that wrong

No, actually, I didn't. But you keep telling yourself that. Probably the only way you can feel good.

BTW, if you have even a clue as to what you were talking about, you'd have seen that it was posted on 9/19. To that point, TBC HAD been playing the way I said. Since then, Cunningham has gotten more snaps. Which he's done on his own merit. Not because TBC is loafing it.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

oh right - i'm sorry - TBC's been tearing it up - big reason for the improved D-:bricks:

I didn't see anybody saying he is or was tearing it up, just refuting the claim that he's 'going through motions'.

 

[DaBruinz]

oh right - i'm sorry - TBC's been tearing it up - big reason for the improved D-:bricks:

Never said that either. I realize you're jumping on the bandwagon a month late, but it would really do you a world of good to realize when the OP started this thread so you could actually have some perspective.

He started the thread back on 9/19. To that point, 2 games had been played. And his assessment of TBC, to that point, was wrong. No one is saying that Cunningham hasn't outplayed TBC since then. Cunningham has. But that doesn't mean that TBC has been loafing it or taking it easy.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

TBC is a decent 3rd option at OLB, as a #1 he is about the worst starter in the NFL.

I thought that was Ninkovich. Or any other starter for us that doesn't make the Pro Bowl.

TBC has always been a limited player who often rushed the QB in obvious passing downs last season and throughout his NE career. He racked up a lot of sacks last season but he wasn't a very well-rounded player.

This year, he's actually improved in other areas but he hasn't been as productive in sacks compared to last season. But he's been around the QB, caused a lot of pressures, and several sacks for teammates have been direct results of rushes from TBC.

And though I'd like to see more sacks from him, he also isn't the biggest pass rushing disappointment in the league since he has more sacks than Jared Allen.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

So, does TBC suck, or is Cunningham just good?

I haven't been breaking down games like I'd like to, but when I take time I see Cunningham making the same mistakes that gets TBC hung out to dry here. I see a larger rookie OLB getting game reps and improving steadily, while a player whom we knew was better rushing the passer then playing the run has been moved to third down specialist - which is about what his new contract says he is.

TBC may be a veteran, but he's a hard working 7th round draft pick whom BB values for what he can do and not what he can't. Cunningham is a 2nd rounder who came in with greater expectation of being a well-rounded player for NE - he's done well enough learning his job that he's been bumped up and allowed to gain practical experience in game situations instead of practice reps. I think it says more about who Cunningham is then it does about TBC.

I see TBC drawing the offense's attention and getting pressure on the QB. He flushed Flacco on the 4th Quarter play where Flacco threw the ball away when TBC, Crab, and Guyton trapped him against the sideline. He convinced Flacco to dump off to Rice (and miss high thanks to Crab waving 40 miles of arms in the passing lane) in OT. It looks like BB values Ninko for his game smarts, Cunningham is growing into his potential, TBC and Crab are getting passing down roles which TBC excels at and Crab can use to belatedly develop.

I'm pretty stoked about how the entire Linebacker Corps is developing, I see the elements which made Vrabel, WillieMac, and Rosy so effective in the four OLBs BB has out there now - no clones, but many of the same skill sets. At ILB we're seeing many of the elements that made Bru, T.J. and Phife our favorites, and that doesn't account for what Fletcher might have to show us yet or whether McKenzie is developing as we'd hoped on the PSquad. Frankly I'm not shopping the draft too hard for LB, I think BB has his boys and he's enjoying the job of polishing their skills.

 

[BelichickFan]

Frankly I'm not shopping the draft too hard for LB, I think BB has his boys and he's enjoying the job of polishing their skills.

Are you OK with Ninko as a long term starter, Box ? I'm still hoping for a big time draftee at the position leaving "New Guy" and Cunningham as our long term starters at OLB, Mayo and Spikes at ILB with Ninko as a really solid OLB backup, TBC and maybe Crab as pass rushers and Guyton/Fletcher as ILB backups, role players (Spikes will probably never be a passing down ILB).

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Are you OK with Ninko as a long term starter, Box ? I'm still hoping for a big time draftee at the position leaving "New Guy" and Cunningham as our long term starters at OLB, Mayo and Spikes at ILB with Ninko as a really solid OLB backup, TBC and maybe Crab as pass rushers and Guyton/Fletcher as ILB backups, role players (Spikes will probably never be a passing down ILB).

Ninko hasn't had much playing time since he left college, now he's getting reps and coaching tips from BB, Patricia, and Pepper. I see a guy growing into his job, I mean that leg whip against Boldin was classic Vrabel, the Miami interceptions had some of Bru and Vrabes in them. Settle back and enjoy the season, the kids are growing up before our eyes.

 

[BillyD123]

Have any here read the comments from San Fran fans when TBC came back to the Pats? It was basically "don't let the door hit you in the azz on the way out." TBC was described as a one trick pony. Had his one swim/spin move towards the QB on passing downs. Other than that, he was ineffective.

 

[Ron Sellers]

I realize you're jumping on the bandwagon a month late, but it would really do you a world of good to realize when the OP started this thread so you could actually have some perspective.

He started the thread back on 9/19. To that point, 2 games had been played. And his assessment of TBC, to that point, was wrong. No one is saying that Cunningham hasn't outplayed TBC since then. Cunningham has. But that doesn't mean that TBC has been loafing it or taking it easy.

This should be Exhibit A of why people should not revive old threads. People start responding under the assumption the comments were made in the last 48 hours, because that's about how long a thread lasts before it drops down to page 2, to (normally) never be seen again.


The OP was looking for a chance to pat him/her self on the back; hope they didn't throw their shoulder out doing so. BTW, nice breakdown on setting the edge and controlling gaps. Assessing a defensive player's performance is not quite as simple as it is in other sports.

As for the number of snaps, something else to consider is what TBC's strengths and weaknesses are in conjunction with the scheme for the opponent (Baltimore.) Amount of playing time under Belichick is often a reflection of the opposition and game plan rather than it strictly being a gauge of who is where on the depth chart.

To the person who commented about the money he's making, if the implication was that the Pats should have cut him before the season started, do you realize what the position would have looked like at the start of the season - or now? Or is it simply a case that you think TBC is overpaid and therefore you don't like him? Would you be fine with his performance and productivity if he was making $900k?

 

[Ron Sellers]

Have any here read the comments from San Fran fans when TBC came back to the Pats? It was basically "don't let the door hit you in the azz on the way out." TBC was described as a one trick pony. Had his one swim/spin move towards the QB on passing downs. Other than that, he was ineffective.

Different teams, different schemes. What he did or did not do in SF is irrelevant to his role in New England. Same goes for many other players throughout the NFL. A good example would be Dwight Freeney; he's very successful with the Colts but would not fit in at all with the Pats defense.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Have any here read the comments from San Fran fans when TBC came back to the Pats? It was basically "don't let the door hit you in the azz on the way out." TBC was described as a one trick pony. Had his one swim/spin move towards the QB on passing downs. Other than that, he was ineffective.

I don't really see it as any different than what Pats fans said when San Fran signed him to the big deal either. He was a 7th round draft pick. He isn't an incredible talent. He works hard, he knows his role, he fills it.

 

[Deus Irae]

TBC is what a lot of us have been saying he is. He's a backup LB who's strength is the pass rush.