Tully Banta-Cain

[arrellbee]

I happened to start focusing on Banta-Cain as I watched the game again from DVR.

I was completely taken aback. It looked like he was doing nothing more than going through the motions. On every run near him he simply engaged with the offensive blocker and stayed with him - no attempt whatsoever to stay off of the blocker or break loose to be free to go after the runner. Really kind of weird. On pass plays, he'd hit his offensive blocker and then just not have any particular energy or fight. A couple times the offensive blocker just pushed him to the ground with one arm. If he tried any kind of a move to slide off of his blocker, he then just seemed to give up going anywhere. One time he had an unabated line on a little delayed run and he was SLOW. He didn't even get within three strides of the runner. No pursuit whatsoever - at MOST a little jogging after the play !!

Boy. I can't see how they can leave him in as a starter. The rawest rookie couldn't do worse because Banta-Cain did nothing and was not even trying with any energy whatsoever. Incredible.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I happened to start focusing on Banta-Cain as I watched the game again from DVR.

I was completely taken aback. It looked like he was doing nothing more than going through the motions. On every run near him he simply engaged with the offensive blocker and stayed with him - no attempt whatsoever to stay off of the blocker or break loose to be free to go after the runner. Really kind of weird. On pass plays, he'd hit his offensive blocker and then just not have any particular energy or fight. A couple times the offensive blocker just pushed him to the ground with one arm. If he tried any kind of a move to slide off of his blocker, he then just seemed to give up going anywhere. One time he had an unabated line on a little delayed run and he was SLOW. He didn't even get within three strides of the runner. No pursuit whatsoever - at MOST a little jogging after the play !!

Boy. I can't see how they can leave him in as a starter. The rawest rookie couldn't do worse because Banta-Cain did nothing and was not even trying with any energy whatsoever. Incredible.

 

[mgcolby]

I just got done explaining this to a 12 year old tonight who plays CB on my son's team. When your job is to contain you have to take on that block straight up on run plays. You can't side step it, your job is not to shed the block and make the tackle, it is to set the edge and turn the runner back inside. If by chance you are stronger than the blocker and you can shed him and make the play, well that is great-but not the responsibilty. TBC's #1 responsibility is to direct the runner back inside.

When an OLB in the NFL or a CB in youth football (essentially the same position) picks a side in order to "stay off the block" they block themselves. In other words they did the blockers job for them. A 2nd level blocker will take the defender where ever he wants to go, it is the runners job to read the block and cut accordingly.

So when you see him just being lazy and taking a block he is actually doing his job!

With that said...if he is getting blown out by the blocker then obviously that is not good. But if he holds the point, but is square on his blocker then once again he is doing his job.

And on pass plays you have no idea what his responsibilities are, he could be a rusher or he could have the flat. Without the assignment you cannot gauge his level of success.

 

[unoriginal]

I've actually been fairly impressed with TBC's run-stopping given he's undersized as an OLB and a former pass rush specialist. He doesn't usually get pushed downfield, strings out laterally pretty well and generally when he makes a gamble and goes for the runner, he gets a TFL, though he gives up lanes on occasion.

One way to look at how he's grading out in the Pats' system is to look at Reiss' defensive participation stats. That he and Mayo played on 77 and 78 (out of 78) snaps respectively against the Bengals — and Gary Guyton came in third among linebackers at 29 snaps — indicate the coaching staff feel he is a three-down player, but of course that might change this week if they look at the Bengals game film and see the same things as arrellbee.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My answer to an Oswlek question regarding TBC's performance in game one: TBC is reminding me more of Rosy Colvin, he's the speed off the edge which the coaches use to set up the offense for the other defenders. Though Wright, and sometimes Pryor, play a similar role inside. He is getting better at setting the edge, he might match Colvin there too, which is nowhere in the same league as Vrabel or WillieMac, but it's not bad.

 

[DaBruinz]

I happened to start focusing on Banta-Cain as I watched the game again from DVR.

I was completely taken aback. It looked like he was doing nothing more than going through the motions. On every run near him he simply engaged with the offensive blocker and stayed with him - no attempt whatsoever to stay off of the blocker or break loose to be free to go after the runner. Really kind of weird. On pass plays, he'd hit his offensive blocker and then just not have any particular energy or fight. A couple times the offensive blocker just pushed him to the ground with one arm. If he tried any kind of a move to slide off of his blocker, he then just seemed to give up going anywhere. One time he had an unabated line on a little delayed run and he was SLOW. He didn't even get within three strides of the runner. No pursuit whatsoever - at MOST a little jogging after the play !!

Boy. I can't see how they can leave him in as a starter. The rawest rookie couldn't do worse because Banta-Cain did nothing and was not even trying with any energy whatsoever. Incredible.

Hmm.. I guess we watched different games because I saw TBC rushing the passer plenty of times, driving the LT back into throwing lanes and being a general disruption. I saw plenty of energy on those plays. Heck, I thought a couple of times that TBC was going to get flagged for late hits on the QB and was glad he wasn't.

As for the runs, I saw him doing his job. Setting the edge and forcing the RB inside towards the ILBs and safeties. It's one of the reasons that Chung has a team high 16 tackles..

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hmm.. I guess we watched different games because I saw TBC rushing the passer plenty of times, driving the LT back into throwing lanes and being a general disruption. I saw plenty of energy on those plays. Heck, I thought a couple of times that TBC was going to get flagged for late hits on the QB and was glad he wasn't.

As for the runs, I saw him doing his job. Setting the edge and forcing the RB inside towards the ILBs and safeties. It's one of the reasons that Chung has a team high 16 tackles..

NE coaches film grades credit Chung with 9 tackles per Reiss.

 

[ALP]

NE coaches film grades credit Chung with 9 tackles per Reiss.

what were the nfl guys looking at then? lol

 

[DaBruinz]

NE coaches film grades credit Chung with 9 tackles per Reiss.

NFL gave him 16.. Either way, the point remains the same.. TBC was doing his job in forcing the RB inside.

 

[Patspsycho]

I just got done explaining this to a 12 year old tonight who plays CB on my son's team. When your job is to contain you have to take on that block straight up on run plays. You can't side step it, your job is not to shed the block and make the tackle, it is to set the edge and turn the runner back inside. If by chance you are stronger than the blocker and you can shed him and make the play, well that is great-but not the responsibilty. TBC's #1 responsibility is to direct the runner back inside.

When an OLB in the NFL or a CB in youth football (essentially the same position) picks a side in order to "stay off the block" they block themselves. In other words they did the blockers job for them. A 2nd level blocker will take the defender where ever he wants to go, it is the runners job to read the block and cut accordingly.

So when you see him just being lazy and taking a block he is actually doing his job!

With that said...if he is getting blown out by the blocker then obviously that is not good. But if he holds the point, but is square on his blocker then once again he is doing his job.

And on pass plays you have no idea what his responsibilities are, he could be a rusher or he could have the flat. Without the assignment you cannot gauge his level of success.

I have a hard time understanding your evaluation because that is not what I saw. You will have to justify your perception of his game performance by using specific examples, e.g., quarter/time.

 

[Nunchucks]

Chung was credited with 14 tackles and 2 assists in my league

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I saw Chung make a tackle on every play, including when we were on offense

 

[mgcolby]

I have a hard time understanding your evaluation because that is not what I saw. You will have to justify your perception of his game performance by using specific examples, e.g., quarter/time.

I wasn't evaluating TBC's performance. I was just pointing out that just because he is being blocked doesn't mean he isn't doing his job.

Didn't mean to cause any confusion. Honestly TBC was the person I paid the least attention to last Sunday.

 

[JMarr]

My question to more knowledgable posters is how was Mike Vrabel so good at setting the edge PLUS such a great pass rusher? If it is all just and talent and versatility, why hasn't BB tried to find the next Vrabel or McGinest?

Or was a lot of it Crennel and scheme that allowed Vrabel to be a terror when he rushed the passer?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My question to more knowledgable posters is how was Mike Vrabel so good at setting the edge PLUS such a great pass rusher? If it is all just and talent and versatility, why hasn't BB tried to find the next Vrabel or McGinest?

Or was a lot of it Crennel and scheme that allowed Vrabel to be a terror when he rushed the passer?

Vrabel 6'4" 260 per the NEP unofficial roster.
TBC 6'2" 250 per the same source.

10 lbs and two inches make a lot of difference in things like reach, vision, and ability to anchor vs. a blocker ...

TBC has gotten stronger and improved his hand use. The reason I compared him to Colvin and not Vrabel is they are roughly the same size and both speed rushers. TBC has had to learn more strength and deception moves over the years, Vrabel never had their speed off the edge and needed to develop those in college.

 

[TheComeback]

Hmm.. I guess we watched different games because I saw TBC rushing the passer plenty of times, driving the LT back into throwing lanes and being a general disruption. I saw plenty of energy on those plays. Heck, I thought a couple of times that TBC was going to get flagged for late hits on the QB and was glad he wasn't.

As for the runs, I saw him doing his job. Setting the edge and forcing the RB inside towards the ILBs and safeties. It's one of the reasons that Chung has a team high 16 tackles..

Yeah, I don't know what game the OP was watching. TBC played well and with what I thought was some intensity. Saw him make a couple of great plays against the run, and he hit Palmer a few times as well. Wasn't he also in on that early sack with Wilfork?

I watched the game twice on DVR and never got the impression TBC was lazy or had a bad game. I also thought the defense played a fairly tight game in the 2nd half. They need more experience, but on a lot of those plays they gave up, they were only a step or two away from getting off the field.

BTW, I also kept an eye on Cunningham when he came in the game, and he looks explosive off the line of scrimmage-- especially for a guy who missed all of the preseason with a hamstring injury.

He's also a gigantic dude for a LB--taller than Adalius Thomas but with the same thick, muscular build. Give this man a year or two and he is going to be a big-time player for us. Needs more strength and a few extra pass-rush moves... throw in some seasoning and he will be our starter at OLB for years to come.

 

[TheComeback]

My question to more knowledgable posters is how was Mike Vrabel so good at setting the edge PLUS such a great pass rusher? If it is all just and talent and versatility, why hasn't BB tried to find the next Vrabel or McGinest?

Or was a lot of it Crennel and scheme that allowed Vrabel to be a terror when he rushed the passer?

I'm pretty sure if a Vrabel or McGinest were out there, BB would do everything in his power to get them. Those players don't grow on trees.

 

[arrellbee]

Hmm.. I guess we watched different games because I saw TBC rushing the passer plenty of times, driving the LT back into throwing lanes and being a general disruption. I saw plenty of energy on those plays. Heck, I thought a couple of times that TBC was going to get flagged for late hits on the QB and was glad he wasn't.

As for the runs, I saw him doing his job. Setting the edge and forcing the RB inside towards the ILBs and safeties. It's one of the reasons that Chung has a team high 16 tackles..

Indeed, I guess we must have been watching the plays differently. However, one might suspect that the coaches were seeing more of what I was seeing. Cunningham is now starting and in the last 2 games he's taken 53 of 69 and 59 of 77 defensive snaps. And, of course, he's a first year rookie.

I haven't a clue why you think that letting runners through to force the safeties to make the tackles is good defensive football on the part of the LB. Of course 7 of Chung's tackles were on pass plays. And my comment on safeties having to tackle - on run plays to Banta-Cain's side where Chung made the solo tackles, the run gains were 6, 10, 9, 3 and 9. Hard to stop a running game that way, heh.

In this last game against the Ravens, Cunningham had 6 tackles, a sack, and a forced fumble.

Pretty expensive LB at 6M to be playing 20 some snaps a game.

 

[patriotscpfc]

Hmm.. I guess we watched different games because I saw TBC rushing the passer plenty of times, driving the LT back into throwing lanes and being a general disruption. I saw plenty of energy on those plays. Heck, I thought a couple of times that TBC was going to get flagged for late hits on the QB and was glad he wasn't.

As for the runs, I saw him doing his job. Setting the edge and forcing the RB inside towards the ILBs and safeties. It's one of the reasons that Chung has a team high 16 tackles..

Good Job, you got that wrong

 

[Steamer86]

Yes, He sucks. His legs are too skinny!!!....whooops....sorry, wrong thread.